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Posted: 6/17/2003 2:03:48 PM EDT
If this topic has been beaten to death forgive me, but I can't find it. So here goes.

It is my belief, based on my experience, that experience that sights do not affect a weapon's inherent accuracy. What they DO affect, is the ability of the shooter to employ the weapon more, or less (as the case may be), accurately/effectively.

Telescopic sights certainly enhance the shooter's ability to shoot more accurately at longer distances, because they magnify the target. But the bullet is still going to hit where the barrel points it (factoring in all the variables of ammunition, weather, temperature, prevailing winds, etc.).

Holographic sights are not, to my knowledge, telescopic. So for purposes of this discussion let's assume that were talking EOTech, as an example. Nor are they infared, thermal imaging night vision devices. As I understand it, they simply project the image of a dot, with a circle around it, on a screen.

Certainly we're all different. With respect to slings, grips, triggers, etc., all of us have personal preferences based on just what happens to work best for each individual one of us. Agreed?

Final premice. Many of us here are former or current LE/Military (and/or both). And as such, have evolved into somewhat of a warrior mentality. As such, we have been trained, and learned from expenience, to plan to go into battle with "Mr. Murphy" (of "Murphy's Law fame), riding on our shoulders - which is a good thing.

So we're always sensitive to the fact that batteries will certainly fail when you need them, and glass optics will inevitably end up damaged in a crisis, just when they're needed most.

All of that having been said, can you guys give me some discussion as to what I might want to consider in deciding between Holosight's vs. traditional iron sights for my new V Match Carbine?

I don't consider or expect the Bushmaster V Match Carbine to be a sniper rifle. I have a different tool specific to that kind of application.

What I'm looking to assemble a compact reliable package, capable of performing in the field, in a typical combat environment, and in CQB type situations. That would be where everyting is filthy and wet, there are no bipods or sand bags, and pandamonium prevails.

With all of that in mind, at this point, I'm leaning toward quality iron sights for that weapon, anticipating deployment under these circumstances.

Where, and how, am I wrong?




Link Posted: 6/17/2003 2:13:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 2:14:09 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
What you say makes sense but how about a co-witnessed EOTech/Aimpoint and BUIS? That way you get quality iron sights and a optics? I recently built up a rifle for similar conditons you mentioned you can read about it here...[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=162739[/url]
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 2:13:53 PM EDT
There is one place where "irons" lack over red dot sights, speed. Especially in CQB situations, where fractions of a second could mean your life, a dot scope (Aimpoint, EOTech, etc.) win hands down over irons. Doing reaction drills with irons, that I was solely using, and an Aimpoint, that I had borrowed for the day, my times were better by full seconds with the Aimpoint over Irons.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 9:50:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2003 9:52:39 PM EDT by FED-up]
You Guys - Thanks! I'm overwhelmed (I've got to redigest all of this). But don't stop. Vinnie. One question. Predicated upon my own admission that I have foldled, but never shot an EOTech 552. And with every expectation that you are going to evicerate me by foundationalizing you opinions based upon your expertice as a "Plank Owner" of SEAL Team VI or FBI's HRT, I've got to ask, do you have any experience in CQB? Becaue I do. And I NEVER have used anything other than my front sight, inclusive of handguns and long guns. That's how we trained, and that's how we fought. If I'm living in the past, talk to me bud. Get me back up to speed. What spooks me (and feel free to correct me, seriously) is that I'm imagining that focusing on that tube is going to drastically diminish one's perepherial vision and perception of what's going on around you. Tunnel vision, under high stress situations, is a problem with just a simple bead on the end of 14" barrel 870 (always my personal entry gun of choice). More than anything it's a quazi (mal)function of your brain, given the circumstances of extremely high stress. That's why one of the techniques a lot of the Teams were training their guys, was to make continual sweeping figure 8 movements with the gun muzzle during the room clearing operations to defeat that syndrome. I know this is 20th century SWAT/Spec Ops theory. That's why I'm trying go get my gear and my brain caught up on the learning curve. Thank all of you guys for your input. Incidentally, I really enjoy the dialogue, as well as the characters, hanging out on this board (I'm the FNG). Thanks for being so cordial to me - all of you. I appreciate that. Jojimbo. Does that thing have a UPB port on it too (LOL - with you I hope)? Dumb Afterthought: You guys use those things (EOTheh's) with both eyes open, don't you? cs
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 12:25:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 4:29:59 AM EDT
Thanks for an interesting thread with a nice summary. The big advantage of the optical sights, for us old guys, is that the target and sights are all at the same distance (was never an issue 30 years ago ;-). Regards John
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:25:56 AM EDT
Also keep in mind that when using the EoTech, you always focus on the target, not the optic. If you try to focus on the window, the aiming point will be blurry and useless. If you focus on the target, the circle/dot is clear. Never a problem with tunnel vision.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 5:59:05 AM EDT
Troy (of course)explains it best. As for me, at the time, no I had absolutely no experience in CQB. I was strictly a bench shooter. I had met Ronin45, a member of the NYC Corrections ESU team, and he was getting a group together to form a Carbine and Urban Tactics class at Black water. He had us training here for 2 months previous, so we weren't complete amatures going down there. Now I'm talikng about basic shooting drills, standing 7-25 feet from a target(s) with multiple shots. I figured not a problem, point and click. One drill for instance, 15 feet away 2 shots center, mass one shot to the head, I was doing around 2.5 seconds with Irons. When he loaned me an Aimpoint I was under 2 seconds every time. Both eyes open on the target, your weapon comes up and you see this red dot float in in front of it (much like a hollywood laser). What's eaiser than that? Of course being good with the Irons is important, but the difference with "shooting at the dot" and having to line up the front and rear sights, especially under stress situations, well I think you can see how it's more benificial to go with "the easier way." (especially when people are shooting back) Plus as Troy has stated, you do have your Irons as back ups (or at least you should), but why not have as many advantages as possible when your life is on the line. As for the rest of my story, I'm currently a member of the NYPD, which of course doen't make me one of the guys on the "Teams," but makes me take my shooting a more seriously now than before.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 6:19:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 6:19:52 AM EDT by slapshot12]
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: What you say makes sense but how about a co-witnessed EOTech/Aimpoint and BUIS?
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I am in the process of deciding on optics, lights, etc for my Bushy Patrolman's carbine (M4A3) that I pick up this week. This gun will be carried in my cruiser and could possibly see action in anything from CQB to longer distance shots. I have decided that the EOTech with iron sights will be the most practical setup for this. The EOTech will be the primary sight and the irons will be a backup. The point you make about things going wrong at the right time is a realistic one. The only thing I can say is keep up with your equipment. I plan to change the batteries very often and carry spares in my ammo vest. As is true with most things, preventative/routine maintenance is very important. There are MANY options for optics, lights, and the guns themselves, and alot of it just comes down to personal preference. Just different ways get the same result. The amount of choices we have is almost mind boggling. It took ALOT of research, reading, and testing of stuff for me to finally decide what to buy. The actual gun decision was the easiest, it's all the stuff to hang off it that was hard.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 7:53:34 AM EDT
FED-up, As others have mentioned the red dot sights are best used with both eyes open, along with a target focus. Forward mounting red dot optics also enhances the experience with faster target acquisition and larger field of view. Both the Aimpoint and the EOTech are excellent combat optics. The Aimpoint's main advantages are battery life, which is unbelievable, and more mounting options. The EOTech 552 has decent battery life 500-800 hours, using lithium batteries. That's roughly 21-30 days of continuous operation, not too shabby! The EOTech is designed to be mounted directly to the receiver so you do not need to purchase any mounting hardware for it. I feel this is a plus but it really depends on how you want to configure you rifle. I always have a lot of lithium AA's on hand for other electronic stuff so I also like the commonality of the batteries. What really sold me on the EOTech was the circle dot configuration. It has 65 MOA outer circle with small hash marks at 12,3,6,9 o'clock and a 1 MOA dot in the center. During CQB you use the large 65 MOA outer circle for targeting. It was a lot faster, at least for me, then using the Aimpoints 4 MOA dot. I also thought the 1 MOA center dot was more precise for longer range shots then the Aimpoint 4 MOA dot. I know some people have shot longer ranges with it, but for me it works great out to 300 yards which is what I expect from my M4 clone. I forgot to mention this earlier, but another great thing about these red dot sights is that they're parallax free! Incoming fire is always directed towards you last known location so don't be there! This kind of forgiveness is invaluable when you've got to shoot and move QUICK!!! Aimpont or EOTech you can't go wrong try both and get the one the works the best for you and you rifle configuration. As always, YMMV![:D]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:43:09 AM EDT
What ever red dot optic you choice, you will be better off with it then a iron sight. I practice with an iron because I feel anything electronic can go wrong, so to be good with an iron is essential. But have a red dot on you gun is a value added commodity. It will add some weight, and it is expensive, but you can shoot in any position without having to worry about parallax or lining up the front and rear sight. Simply put the dot on the target and pull the trigger. I highly recommand getting either a EOTech(my favorite) or an Aimpoint. with either choice, you will add perfromance to your gun like nothing before.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 8:48:25 AM EDT
Firstly Vinnie, I didn't mean for that to sound condescending, I truly didn't (too much coffee, too little sleep - you know the drill). As I said I'm the FNG here and there are a miriad of guys here for all aspects of the shooting community (a good thing). God love ya man. If you're slugging it out in the trenches of NYC - be safe and cover your 6. There are days when I wish I were back. When you get where I am and that feeling hits you, turn on C-span and you'll immediately remember why you pulled the proverbial pin. I'm from NYS too, by the way I'd love to do a Bill and Hilari thread, but I can never beat up on a brother cop (lol). Despite being a retired FED, I never had the privilige of meeting Ronnie, but I had the EXTREME good fortune of working closely with three of the reminants of Demo Dick murdering mauraders, after the "G" evicerated Dick and scatterd what was ST VI (they were banished to the relocate "Top Gun School" at NAS Fallon NV). Thanks for the job you're doing. Secondly, you guys have hand on with these baby's, I don't (yet). I've got to tell you, I never DID understand why all, in all of the combat shots of our GI's employing these things they were mounted so far forward on the weapons. To me (and old fart trying to separte the concept from that of traditional telescopic optics) that looks REALLY WIERD. It still looks "wrong." But then, "who we are is what we were when," according to Massey. And and I still don't get Auschwitz haircuts and piercing your penis - on purpose? Thirdly, JTinIn - I feel you pain. fortunately (I just left the opthymologist last week) I'm still 20/20. I just can't read without binoculars. And it just keeps getting better. So then "reader's digest" is the Holosight Concept DOES kick butt, and I'm behing the learning curve. That curable. But I'm hearing a consensus that, in a perfect world, you wouldn't want to be without iron sights, REGARDLESS of which supplemental sighting system system you end up deciding upon. So I guess that will be the starting point. Again, thanks. I'm enjoying meeting all of you guys. Just remember, someday, "You'll be older toOoOoOooooo." And if you know what song that came from, you already are! Now how many of you guys have tried using Geritol to lube your guns? Shoot! That's a different thread.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:05:53 AM EDT
O.K. guys. This is PRECISELY part of what's confusing the hell out of me. Vinnie, get your hands on a copy of the latest issue of NOTA's Tactical Edge. Take a look at the guy on the cover with the M-4 (in urban camo BDU's) and note where his EOTech 551/552 is mounted. That's EXACTLY where I would have put mine. At the rear most point on the carrying handle as close to his face as he could mount it. To ME, that looks, "right." But then, I don't have any nipple rings either, so what do I know? My BM VMatch (if I ever get it back from the factory) is a flat top, but that precisely where I had intended to mount it. Why is Alzheimer's taking so long?
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:19:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 9:20:43 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By FED-up: O.K. guys. This is PRECISELY part of what's confusing the hell out of me. Vinnie, get your hands on a copy of the latest issue of NOTA's Tactical Edge. Take a look at the guy on the cover with the M-4 (in urban camo BDU's) and note where his EOTech 551/552 is mounted. That's EXACTLY where I would have put mine. At the rear most point on the carrying handle as close to his face as he could mount it. To ME, that looks, "right." But then, I don't have any nipple rings either, so what do I know? My BM VMatch (if I ever get it back from the factory) is a flat top, but that precisely where I had intended to mount it. Why is Alzheimer's taking so long?
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FED-up, The EOTech or Aimpoint will still work mounted closer to the eye, it's just not the optimal location for them. I had the same problem when I first saw these setups but once you use it you'll understand. The non-magnified red dot optics are designed to be used while focusing on the target using binocular vision. Ideally the best place to put them is the distance where the vision from both eyes intersect. The further down the down the sight is the faster it is for you to pick up the dot and the larger your field of view will be. Think of it like pointing a finger. If you put your finger 2 inches away from your dominant eye it's hard to accurately point at something while you have both eyes open. Now move your finger to arms length and bingo now it's really easy and fast to point at something as small as a fly on the wall! That's the same principle the red dot optics use. Regardless, the bottom line is to use what works best for you, your rifle config and the situation at hand.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:30:08 AM EDT
First off, I never took you as being condecending. [:D] I also know my place in the food chain. My side arm is my primary weapon. My M4gery is for "fun," but some day I'd like to play with the "boys with the toys." Now as far as mounting, when I borrowed the Aimpoint from John (Ronin45) I had it mounted at T-3 or so, just enough room for my KAC 600m flip up BUIS. it "looked" right and felt a bit more balanced. After reading many posts on the subject, I got myself KAC offset mount and moved it as far forward on the rail as I could. I found that to give me the best un obtrusive view, and even made the dot a bit smaller for the long range shots. At Blackwater, I had the mount at T-3 as I said and at 400m the dot covered the whole sillouette (man sized) except a small piece of the head. Now I haven't been back, but I do think the dot would cover up less of the target (plus I'm running an older Aimpoint comp M, which I think only has a 3 MOA dot). The rifle is a tad front heavy with this set up, but like anything else, shoot enough and you stop noticing. Also the tube isn't right in your face which is less likely for you to get tunnel vision and look primaraly through the tube. To help this, I began shooting with the front cover closed and both eyes open. It seems weird but it works. Both eyes open allow you to see the whole picture with a red dot floating onto your point of impact. I'm not sure how you'd mount an EOTech farther forward than the flattop other than a FF rail system or having the "nose" of the EOTech hang over the hanguards. In any case, having the EOTech as far back as you describe wouldn't leave any room for a BUIS.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 9:32:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 9:34:09 AM EDT by SMGLee]
FED-up, face a wall, distance about ten feet or more is good. take your hand and put it in front and middle of your face touching your nose. look at the wall. now extend your hand out and look at the same wall and tell me which method block more of your vision. I have seen a lot of guys mount their optic close to the rear, and after I talked to them, they changed the mounting position to as far forward as possible and still keep a good balalnce to yoiur rifle. most of them are mounting just about two rail notch back from the front. some even liked up on the handguard. just remember, your rifle will have to be balanced too. an over heavy front end will cause the rifle to over swing in fast action engagements. NTOA magzine does not always feature the best cover. to which I can name some cover that are just too funny. the operator on the cover is definitely mounting his EOTech incorrectly.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 10:06:45 AM EDT
Iron sights are useless in the dark. Even with the trit front sight, you cant compare it with a Reflex sight. My brother has his M68 mounted at the front of the receiver. Mine is on the front of my SIR. Forward mounting doesnt balance as well, but it is faster. Vinnie, your Comp M is a 3 MOA dot masked down from 10 MOA, where the M2/ML2 started out as a 4 MOA. I havent used the M, but word is the dot isnt as clear. Also, battery life is more of an issue. I am bothered by my dependance on batteries. The Aimpoint isnt a big deal, but my UTL MK2 and M900A eat those Lithium batterries and ask for more. I bought the VLTOR stock for a covenient place to store extras. In the future I will be building a rifle that isnt dependant on batteries. Probably an AR10 carbine with a TA11E. Something that isnt often mentioned. When you are shooting at a target that blends with his surroundings, and you are focusing on your front sight, you can't see him. With the reflex sight you are looking at your target.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 11:40:48 AM EDT
Thanks CJ. Eventually I will be upgrading to an M2 or whatever is around at the time, but for $175, it was just too good a deal to pass up. In either case I'll have an Aimpoint for my Shotty. [:D] That's a great point about the target blending in and focusing in on the front sight. There was a post a while agou tiled something like "See what your missing," and had a view that looked like a circle surrounded by black and a red dot being the Aimpoint and a wide view with the EOTech "dot-in circle," trying to say that's what you'll be seeing with the two different optics. I had to just laugh, and forced myself not to post what a rediculous statment it was. To each their own I guess.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:00:53 PM EDT
And don't forget, you can always get "flip down" front and rear iron sights so that you don't have that front post covering up a potential target. In my opinion it's the only way to go. They are still there for backup if you need them (ie: your batteries die).
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 1:43:51 PM EDT
Personally I prefer the fixed front sight. Murphy's Law and all, I'd rather keep things that may go wrong to a minimum. I have a KAC 600m BUIS now, and if it weren't for the fact I found it for 125 I would have probably gotten a fixed rear sight for the same reason. A good deal is a good deal [:D]
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 2:52:20 PM EDT
Vinnie, Emergency Services is holding a spot for you so just be patient. You've got the "tude" - that's the ingredient. SMGlee, I can't stand 10' from a wall and touch my finger to the end of my nose. My nose will be touching the wall at that close of a distance. Vinnie, you're from NY too. Exlpain that to him for me, will ya? ("Dats no bannana, Dat's my nose!") Seriously, you guys have given me an incredible understanding I don't think I could have gotten anywhere else. I guess it would be safe to say there are as may constants as there are variables, and you've got to experiment to figure out what works for you. Since all of our eyes see, and brains interpret the immages, differently, you've got to figure out how yours work and configure your gear accordingly. Now if I could just get Bushmaster to send me my weapon back, I could start spending more money on novel ways to dispose of more of the ammo Uncle Sams so graciously left me with. You guys rule, you really do. Vinnie, get us some tickets to a Yankees Game will ya? I'll be back in three weeks. Or does the gold "general admission pass" in my back pocket still work in that town? (Don't answer that - remember the Knapp Commission!)
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:19:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2003 3:20:40 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By FED-up: SMGlee, I can't stand 10' from a wall and touch my finger to the end of my nose. My nose will be touching the wall at that close of a distance. Vinnie, you're from NY too. Exlpain that to him for me, will ya? ("Dats no bannana, Dat's my nose!")
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Maybe my bad english skill did not translate the exercise too well, I apologize. stand sit any where you want. take your hand and place it in from of your face. foucs on an object on the wall, you will see the hand is blocking a lot of the view. now take the hand and place it as far forward as possible, you can see more on the wall which was previously block by your hand place close to your face. it is just a quick way to prove the optic forward is a better position then close to your eyes. I hope this can help you explain my point.
Link Posted: 6/18/2003 3:38:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:10:04 AM EDT
Troy, How much does the forward mount spacer for the 22M68 run? With all of this talk of forward mounting dot sights can someone explain why there are so few photos of combat M4s picturing this setup? Most of the pics I see show the Aimpoints mounted on the receiver, and in many instances not even at the front of the receiver. Is this because the RAS rail needs to remain available for other equipment? Is it because the RAS rails can not be trusted to allow an optic to retain zero?
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 7:53:50 AM EDT
Basically $ the original RIS/RAS can still move about, making it undependable for a comabt optic. It would cost alot of money to out fit EVERY M16/M4 with the newer rail systems that are sturdy enough for optics, not to mention all equipment buying is done by bids. Of course let's not forget about uniformity.
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 3:04:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 6:54:29 AM EDT
Hey Guys, Well I just got an email from BM (along with a phone call - I'm very impressed with that company BTW) and my "project" is shipping today. Along with a 552. I figure trial and error is the only teacher. And I got the scars to prove it. But here we go! I haven't been this excited since my senior prom. Come to think of it, I think I'll just leave that one alone. Anyway, I wanted to thank all of you guys for your help. I'll post my impressions as soon as I get it and put some rounds down range. And Vinnie, get some polish on that Sam Brown and some Brasso on the hardware. And while you're at it, trim the moustache and get a hair cut! (GOD I miss those days!) Enjoy 'em for me will ya? Best, Rick
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 3:49:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FED-up: And Vinnie, get some polish on that Sam Brown and some Brasso on the hardware. And while you're at it, trim the moustache and get a hair cut! (GOD I miss those days!) Enjoy 'em for me will ya? Best, Rick
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Rick, boy things have changed. We don't have Sam Brown styled belts anymore. I think they are "Boarder Patrol" type. At least that's what Safariland calls that style of belt. Also all our "hardware" is black, at least for my class. The class before still had silver buckles, and snaps, but all my eqipment is black powdercoated. and If I cut my hair any shorter, I'd be scalping myself. Moustache? That's sooo 80's [:D]
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