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Posted: 5/25/2003 6:24:53 PM EDT
I am just trying to decide if the TA31 is enough of an improvement over my current TA01nsn/docter set up to warrent a change. I thought maybee Duffy could speak to the difference in the two setus, particularly with respect to fast QCB shooting.

I have farted around with a BAC a little and I am not convinced they are a perfect QCB sight (even newarguy says the TA31 is a compromise).
Eye relief and eye alignment is more of an issue than with a 1X. Also, some complain of shift in point of aim/impact while using BAC (whats that technical term newarguy uses?)

My docter, being a 1x red dot works very well an very fast in close and my TA01nsn works as one would expect any 4x optic to work at a distance.

What I feel I may be giving up right now is a little durrability. While I do not consider the Docter fragile, I will admit it is not ACOG tough; and, that always nags at me.

The battery is a non issue for me, they last a long time. In fact, reliance on tritum makes me more nervous. I have had night sights go tits up after three years. Furthermore, I think in the future it may not be legal for civilians to own military guns and equipment and we may not be able to send our ACOGs back to have the lamps recharged. Some European countries have even banned tritum wrist watches for "enviornmental reasons". I know that basing my current choice of optic on what MIGHT happen in the future may seem dumb to you guys but it is something that always nags at me too.

I can get my NSN to grey out around the house if the light is just right. However, I usualy shoot at sun up to avoid other shootes at the range and I can say outdoors, under natural lighting conditions, I have never found it to be a problem.

I think the TA31 must be an excellent scope, but what reasons are there that you guys can think of for me to change scopes? Other than durrability what does it have to offer that my set up does not?

Ultimatly I'd like to shoot both and decide for myself, but before I buy a new TA31 I have a little divorce to pay for.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your help.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:25:29 PM EDT
I agree, try to use them both and compare for yourself. I haven't used a dr optic combo, so I can't compare, but I can give my experience with the TA31F. The change in POI when using BAC (between scoped view and the chevron imposed over your left eye) is not a HUGE difference for me, but it does exist. I think that's called phoria...? However, the only reason I could think of to use the ACOG as a red dot (dont use magnified view) would be in fast target aquisition, in which case you'd probably be shooting at a relatively close range. The difference (for me) in POI between the two is a matter of maybe 1 inch at 10 yards, not enough (IMO) of a difference to worry about in that situation. In any other situation, I don't see how it would make a difference on that matter. I have got in the habit of adjusting my aim when not using the magnified image, and can easily (after practice) "block out" the magnified view if I want to, using it as a red-dot type setup. Altho once again, I only see the practical use of that in a reaction type situation. Any other situation and I'd be using the magnified view. I also like the fact that (unless switching to irons for some reason) I do not have to move my head in the least to switch back and forth between red-dot type and magnified. Once again, I've never used the NSN w/ dr optic, so it might not be an issue at all... The one disadvantage to the TA31-F I can see is that for longer range/precision shooting, they probably aren't as good. The 31F has a chevron with bullet drop, not the best for long range. I guess it all depends on the intended use of the weapon. For myself, with my 16" CAR and the TA31F mounted on a2 carry handle (haven't bought a flattop upper for that one yet), I can easily hit paper plate sized targets with either magnified or red-dot useage at 100 yards, which I consider to be well beyond defensive/reaction range. If they came out with a newer better super-ACOG that provided a few nominal upgrades to my TA31F (such as possible better duribility, longer battery, etc), I don't think I'd be willing to shell out the $$$ unless I could get a good trade in for my old one. I'd find it hard to justify spending a lot more for small improvements. JMHO Good luck with your choice, hopefully it gives a little helpful input... even w/o my experience w/ the dr optic.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:44:03 PM EDT
Ink, This may not be the answer you're looking for. I don't have a TA31, just a TA11. Given the short eye relief of the TA31 I've come to like the TA11 much better. TA11/TA31 is a compromise, it does CQB and shots out to 600M equally well, not exceptionally so compared to dedicated optics, say Aimpoint for CQB, and a Leupold for 300M and beyond. It's the great balance that makes them so attractive. TA01NSN and Optima/Docter combination fills both requirement, it's like the "two scope in one" TA11/TA31 except it IS consisted of two scopes. Me, if I must choose either TA11/TA31 or TA01NSN/Optima or Docter combo, I'd go with the TA01NSN and Optima/Docter combo. Things being what they are, I got both [:d] My choice is a bit different than yours, I'm trying to decide between putting money in a second car (a BMW) and a TA31 [;)]
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:04:07 PM EDT
steenkybastage Thanks. I cant imagine the BAC chevron (or the doughnut for that matter) being that much less accurate at long range, because at 300 or longer you'd be using the bullet drop "ladder" anyway. So to me that's not a real disadvantage to the TA31. Moveing my head back and forth between the two optics is not an issue for me because I usually use one or the other depending on the target. If the shot is one I can take off hand (not usually much more than 100 yards for me) I find myself using the Docter. If I have to go to a knee, go prone, or find a rest then I use the scope. So usually a transition in optics would occur simultaneously with a change in body position. Seldom would a situation arise where I need to switch back and forth. Even so changing head position becomes second nature with practice. Nearly everyone who posts about their BAC says phoria (??) is a non issue so it must not be that big of deal. What about eyer relief/eye alignmen. It has to be more critical than with a 1X dot. Is that ever a problem, say with awkward shooting positions (I saw in one carbine course the instructor was making the students shoot while getting up off their backs). I know a situation like that is extream and rare but what about with a gas mask or lefthanded from cover? Keep em coming guys thanks
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:09:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 8:11:18 PM EDT by inkaybee]
[b]by Duffy --Me, if I must choose either TA11/TA31 or TA01NSN/Optima or Docter combo, I'd go with the TA01NSN and Optima/Docter combo[/b] Don't be shy. Exactly why would youn make this choice? What is your thought process? Your not just saying what I want to hear so I'll shut up are you? BMW -- cool.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 8:43:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2003 8:53:19 PM EDT by Duffy]
Ink, Because the TA01NSN is precise with a good range finder, and the Optima/Docter is like an Aimpoint without the bulk, the combination addresses most optics needs in ranges between 10 and 600 yards. To use a magnified scope that's sighted for 100yds for short range work you'd need to compensate the scope to bore difference like Steen said, only with lots of training and practice is this done successfully. I'd imagine many people under stress would forget that. The mini red dot requires no thought process, it is zeroed for 10 to 25 yards while the TA01NSN is used for longer ranges. Like I said in another thread, it's like the G36 red dot/magnified scope combo in its carry handle, except the Docter/Optima is much easier to use and the TA01NSN beats the crap out of the HK optic. The Optima of course isn't very tough, I should have spent more and got the Docter instead but I'm not going into combat in this life time [;)] The only things that somewhat bother me are the added height and the short eye relief. I love my TA11, but with the donut reticle it covers the target until at longer ranges where I can use the bullet drop ladder thingie.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:14:51 AM EDT
I own a TA31, and a TAO1nsn. I do own a Dr Optics, but it is on top of my SPR, not my TAO1nsn. So while I havent used the TAO1nsn + Dr Optics combo, I have used all three sighting systems you are asking about. I would give away all the others before I took the TA31 off my rifle. You're right, I did ay the TA31 is a compromise, but *everything* is a compromise. I have an Aimpoint as well, and for CQB I like nothing better. But it is a compromise as well. Its simplicity and idiot proof design are also inherant to its limitations. Anyhow... phoria is the difference in POA/POI from the magnified and unmagnified view in ACOGs. I know that just how much difference it is can more or less extreme for different people. Like Duff, it is rather slight for me. For all the reasons Duff's already gone over, its never been enough to really make a difference one way or the next. I will say that head position is more critical on a TA31 than with something like a unmagnified dot sight, but I think I read in wither this post or another where you implied that you have to be rock solid behind the optic to use it. This isnt true. You have some play in where your head can be, just not as much play. With a TA11, you have even more play. Neither as much as a unmagnified optic, but still some, and TA11 even more so than the TA31. Also, consider this. One thing thats suprised me with the Dr Optics set up is a lack of flexibility with head alignment. Becasue the window of the Dr Optics unit is so small, I find that if I move my head around too much, I wont be looking through the window. This may have something with how far out the Dr Optics is on my SPR, but it suprised me. Having the Dr Optics zerod at close range will help with the height over bore problems ACOGs have. At close ranges you do have to aim high to put the hits where you want them. To me, this one advantage is not enough for me to even consider switching set ups. Weird shooting positions has been an issue, but it is nothing you cant work with. I've used my TA31 in the last two or three classes I've taken and there were a couple instances where the instructors we having us shoot from odd positions that the Aimpoint would have been better... in these SPECIFIC instances. But it wasnt anything I couldnt overcome quickly with a slight shift in my shooting position. Put it this way. I feel like the TA31and TA11 are probably the best overall optic you can look for. Even though I dont own a TA11 I have used them lots so I feel like I can include them in my opinion. They are not the easiest things to use and there is a few things you have to know about them and take into consideration during use. However, if you take the time to use it a lot and work it, the optic will work wonders for you. If all you have is a TAO1 series optic, the Dr Optics set up is a much better system than just the ACOG alone. But I dont think it beats the BAC. I would take them over a TAO1 series + Dr Optic set up for the following reasons. Its a much simpler, more robust set up. I dont really like the fact that I'd have to switch from the Dr Optics to the ACOG for short and long targets after knowing how easy it is to do with a single optic. Id rather aim a little high at close ranges than constantly switching head positions. I realize you gave several specific instances to show how switching isnt a problem for you. For me, I'd rather keep a more flexible and fluid shooting style. The courses we fire at FDCC are always changing and demanding. Im constantly having to go from quick CQB shots to longer shots or shots that require more precision. The thought of having to keep bobbing my head up and down to do so just makes me cringe.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:49:18 AM EDT
New-arguy thanks for the input. You said: [b]"One thing thats suprised me with the Dr Optics set up is a lack of flexibility with head alignment. Becasue the window of the Dr Optics unit is so small, I find that if I move my head around too much, I wont be looking through the window. This may have something with how far out the Dr Optics is on my SPR, but it suprised me."[/b] I just measured both the ocular lense of my 4x acog and the window of the docter, both measured about 7/8". Like you said the window may seem small on your SPR because it is farther away. I once played with a handgun with the docter on it and at arms lenght it seemed like a small window to me too. However, mounted on the rear of a TA01NSN it is so close to my eye that I have to move my head/eye to EXTREAMS to loose my view. You also said: [b] "I would take them over a TAO1 series + Dr Optic set up for the following reasons. Its a much simpler, more robust set up. I dont really like the fact that I'd have to switch from the Dr Optics to the ACOG for short and long targets after knowing how easy it is to do with a single optic"[/b] I have already said that durrabiliy of my set up nags at me a little. You must have at least some faith in the docter to put it on your SPR. I know it's not your primary optic so if it does go down all is not lost. I guess the same could be said for my set up too. As far as head movement between the two goes, like I said above it is a non-issue FOR ME. Just like you said you have to work and practice with your BAC -- work and pratice overcame my initial problems with head movement. So, of the two reasons you gave one is a small naging issue for me the other is a non-issue for me. Maybe I should be content with what I have. Thanks for your help.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:39:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2003 8:42:59 AM EDT by Duffy]
I'm wondering if you must choose between one and the other, Ink. Since you already have the TA01NSN/Docter combo, why don't you get the TA31 or TA11 for another rifle, that's what I did. I'm going to put the TA11 on the M4gery and TA01NSN on the 20" barreled rifle, though the calibration may be off I think that makes the most sense: 20" barreled rifle with TA01 for precision, TA11 on the M4 for short range shooting. In the best ar15.com tradition: get both! [:d]
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 9:10:00 AM EDT
For the last seven months I have had to account for every penny I spend to my X and her attorney. Hopefully, that will all be over June 26th. Then I think I will buy a TA31 and a PVS 14 and a....
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