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Posted: 5/16/2003 10:52:17 AM EDT
Anyone with direct experience w/ both setups? Pro's Cons of Each.
I have the NSN + jpoint but am thinking of shifting to ACOG TA-31.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:48:51 PM EDT
My experience with BAC is limmited to just a few rounds through a friends AR with a 3x amber triangle. I have been using an NSN/Docter set up for about a year and a half. I have thought and thought about it and the only thing my set up gives up to a BAC ACOG is probably some durrability. There are other things I like better about my set up. If I had a BAC I would be happy with it, but I am happy enough with my NSN/Docter that I won't be trading it. In the end it is probably a lot closer to six of one and half a dozen of the other than some of the very vocal advocates of either system would have you believe.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:50:45 PM EDT
I have not used the Dr Optic on an NSN but have looked through a NSN and Dr Optic at different times and have tried out the dual sight that comes on the HK G36 which is a similar set up. The main drawback I saw was that you had to shift your head up/down and reaquire the close range targets so going from close to far and back to close took more time. The dual optic set up is needed for those who cant use BAC for what ever reason and the dual set up is easier to use your first time out but with time the BAC method becomes second nature. The BAC ACOG would be FAR more rugged too. There is also the issue of phoria with the BAC scope where the magnified and unmagnified view shoots to two different POI. The shift is mall but it exists. I would say overall the BAC ACOG is faster and more durable and the TA01NSN/Dr Optic is slower and more fragile and requires batteries but is more precise for either close range or distance shooting.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 9:48:09 PM EDT
DevL I know you Newarguy will say I did'nt have time to get used to the BAC but I think I did. It worked pretty well, but it was not faster than the Docter. As for two diferent head placements -- My rule of thumb is if the shot is one I can take offhand then I use the Docter, If I have to kneel or go prone tnen I use the NSN. Either one comes up quickly and naturaly. If the two head placements on the HK were a problem for you maybee YOU didn't have time to get used to IT. "FAR more rugged" is a strong statment. The fiber optic is not immune to damage -- mosquito repelent will melt it and it does crack. The Docter sight is very rugged it just sits in a vulnerable place. If you decide to flame me please don't attack my spelling or typing -- just my position.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 4:30:56 AM EDT
LOL I dont use the spell check either so dont worry. There is no way the BAC is as slow as the NSN/Dr Optic. The shift from near to far is instant. You dont really do anything but point at the close target and shoot and go back to the far target and use the magnifed view. If you are not using the BAC feature then the NSN/Dr Optic would be faster but if you are using the BAC then it cannot get any faster than instant. If the close taret was about 45 degrees off I can see lifting your head as you swing the rifle to target and lift head at same time but when you went back to the long target youd "hunt" for the target in the scopes FOV instead of just locking on with the BAC and transitioning to the magnified view. When you use the BAC portion are you still moving the rifle across the target as you fire? If you stop and pause for a second you will end up using the magnifed view and have to make a small correction which will slow you down. Also without my contacts the reticle of the NSN is so fine I can lose it against cluttered back grounds like a heavily shaded tree line. I can still see the crosshairs, especially the thicker section but the fine aiming point is lost unless I have contacts in. The BAC ACOGs dont have this problem for me.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:13:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 6:24:11 AM EDT by inkaybee]
Thanks for being a good sport and not flaming me for having a different opinion. I still don't see how BAC can be faster. You say "the shift from near to far is instant". But if you are looking at a near target with a big old 4X scope covering half you FOV it is harder to pick up on, or even be aware of, other targets far off. With the Docter your FOV is unobstucted to the max. As for the time factor in shifting from Docter to ACOG -- like I said I only make the change in optic when going from an offhand/unsuported to a suported shooting stance. The change in optic occurs as part of the change in possition. When bringing the NSN to bear on a far target I still use both eyes open to aquire the target and it comes in to view much the same way as it would with a BAC. (remenber it's Bindon Aiming CONCEPT not Bindon Aiming Mechanisim) BAC works to some degree with any magnified optic. In almost all instances out to 100 yards or so I use the Docter exclusivly so transition is not an issue. It sounds like you envision shooting senarios wherein one has to shoot an attacker within arms lenght and then instantly and swiftly take a shot at a 150 or 200 yard target without changing your stance. You must be a hell of alot better shot than me. In my scenarion one engages targets in close then takes cover and finds a solid position or rest before engaging those enemy snipers attacking from long range. I supose if I had to take a hurried pot shot at a far off target from the offhand position I may as well use the Docter -- it ought to work adaquitly out to 250 yards or so (point blank range of 223). Hell many shooters and the army use red dot as their primary optic. What I am saying is I use the red dot alot more than the magnified optic but I have it if I need it. I'm not changing back and forth between every shot
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:36:54 AM EDT
I am not into flaming people for having an opposing view. Let me give you a thoretical situation. I think if you are a police officer engaging a bank robber a say 50m-70m who is hunkered down behind a car you will have a very small target present itself so you need the precision of the magnified optic. You are static and taking shots from a somewhat kneeling position from cover. Then you are supprised by his accomplice who pops out the door of a building very close to you at about 40 feet. He notices you and tries to fire while retreating. His buddy sees the opportunity to catch you off guard and tries to take a shot at you when he sees you engagin his buddy. You can put the reticle on the closer guys center mass and pop off a double tap then go back to the other guy and pop one at him using the magnifed view before deciding whether to duck or continue engaging. Did you see the report of the guy at the FDCC who was suprised by a moving target while engaging a distant target? Thats the kind of situation I am talking about. I dont find the ACOG to cover much of my field of view. Then again this is why I like the TA11 over the TA31 or NSN. It is a smaller FOV and is further away from my eye so it covers MUCH less of my unmagnified view. When combined with the view from my left eye I only lose a very small portion of my unmagnified FOV which is not a real issue for me. I think the issue where we differ is the use of magnification at intermediate range. You use the dot out to 100 yards and I use magnification at 25 yards and over. From 25-100 yards we are doing different things and that why you are not slower using your method. I think the BAC ACOG using the magnified view is more accurate at the same speed at 25-100 yards using vs. a dot sight but the dot sight is more precise inside 25 yards and the NSN is more precise over 100 yards using your method. Just different ideologies on how to use equipment in that case and thats why each person should selsct gear to suit HIM (or her) and not the general population.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:56:00 AM EDT
[b]Just different ideologies on how to use equipment in that case and thats why each person should selsct gear to suit HIM (or her) and not the general population.[/b] Well put. I try not to be a zelot when explaining why I like MY equipment. The main reason I have my set up is because I bought the NSN before the TA31 was widely heard of. The Docter was added to overcome the short range (35 yard and shorter)problems with with the NSN. Then I found that I like the dot better most of the time. I have another prebam Colt A2 that is begging to be tricked out like my Bushmaster. When I get around to it I'll probably put a TA31 on it. Then I'll know for shure which I like better. I bet in the end it really is six of one and half adozen of the other. Train with which ever you have and either way you'll have a fine GP sest up.
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