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Posted: 12/15/2005 7:21:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 12:31:19 PM EDT by CitySlicker]







As the photographs illustrate, these stainless steel magazines come with SAW gunner floor plates.



Originally Posted By rickdownrange:
I'm very proud of our company and the product we produce. No offense or disrespect to the other manufacturers is meant but the mags we are producing are the best ever made!!
Just got back from the range after firing 900 rounds with the stainless steel mag. Absolutely, totally awesome!!! The new anti-tilt follower is just slick. Used the chrome silicon spring and it really did make a difference. Fired it with the S/S spring first. I'm hoping my unit will have these before we go. They weigh 1.6 ounces more than the aluminum, you can't really tell the difference. Get ready guys, a new mag is in the house!!



More information can be found here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=257732.

NOTE: rickdownrange will be deploying later this year and his entire unit will be taking these magazines with them.


Note to all US Military and Law Enforcement personnel: in light of recent reports of US Military personnel being issued unusable magazines, Larry of Creative Products has generously offered its USGI magazines [the same USGI magazines supplied to Brownells who in turn then supply them to the US Military] to US Military Personnel at $7.90 each. Please follow the link for more information: Magazines for military personnel and units for $7.90 each.

Either Larry or Rick will be here shortly to enter any questions you may have.

Take care and have a very happy holidays.

Regards,

Justin


­UPDATE: The US Military/Law Enforcement price has been raised to $8.90 due to increased cost from material vendors. I know Larry rather well and he would want nothing more than to avoid this but they had little choice in the matter. Larry will be in here shortly to elaborate.

Take care.

Justin
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:11:39 PM EDT
Who has these for sale???
FB
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:48:38 PM EDT
I didn't see a "Cage Number" on that magazine
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:12:05 PM EDT
You couldn't pay me to use them .
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:31:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:
You couldn't pay me to use them .



Really? Hell you could pay me to use them. I'd at least be willing to try one for pay.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:36:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:
You couldn't pay me to use them .




I still got a bad taste in my mouth from the last batch and if they are anything like those magazines that came from CP, I'll pass .............sorry
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:00:21 PM EDT
Interesting, I like the idea of the SS mag. Would like to try one ASAP.

What's up with the screw heads though? Are those required with that floorplate? If so, will they be available with standard floorplates? Just wondering.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:04:33 PM EDT
rickdownrange mentions something about a anti-tilt follower being slick.

From here, it looks like your average green follower. Is there any difference?

WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:58:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 5:10:05 AM EDT by tochhc235]
For those who can't forget the past, you certainly have that right. That's part of the freedom Rick and his fellow soldiers will be protecting.
The first magazines we produced were bad, we admitted it and replaced the bad ones. We then retooled the entire product and have what we feel is the best one made. That's our opinion and alot of other shooters.
As far as gage # it is no longer required.
Who has them? No one at this time. They are in final testing. We do not plan on making the same mistake twice. They will be for sale the first week of January.
There is another ranger floor plate which slides on. That will be ready next week.
The anti tilt follower will be ready Monday.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:43:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tochhc235:

The first magazines we produced were bad, we admitted it and replaced the bad ones.





Try again
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:02:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 11:06:55 AM EDT by j3_]
I got one of the first ones Brownells had shortly after the CP mags came out and where sent back. Finish missing on the inside. Loose floorplate. Haze rust on the spring. Wonder who made it?

But I am a fiend for stainless. So out comes the card and something to take the finish off and shine it up.

How about some good forties like PMI used to make.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:06:36 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:08:53 PM EDT
Will these be available in a pollished finish? For my pimp gun.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 2:28:41 PM EDT
Looks interesting.

However, I am not a fan of SS. Too brittle for applications that require Flexibility (like mag lips that flex with every cycle of the weapon). I could be wrong, but I'd like to see how many rounds it will take (if any) before we see cracked lips.

Again I could be wrong, but I've been around a long time, and everytime I have seen SS in action (including 1911 frames) cracking has occured in heavy use applications. For your SHTF mags, they might be great (after sufficient function testing). Before you bring up Wilson Mags, be aware that the back edge is radiused and not at righ angles to the feed lips. SS is the reason for this. Hell, blued steel Colt 1911 Mags use to crack because of that right angle.


Given that USGI mags are aluminum (they don't rust), and you can get them Teflon coated now from DH....is this a soultion to a non-existent problem? The Magpul Ranger Plates and Enhanced Followers seem to be pretty "Fool Proof" to me after a year of serious use. I see no advantage to the proposed Floor Plates or Followers on the SS Creative Products mags.

Just my $.02 worth.

Tack
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 2:34:02 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:57:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BookHound:
I'm pretty sure Creative Products makes these mags. In fact I'd bet on it and I'm not a gambling man.

Right after the ban ended Creative Products released some new 30-round magazines. It appears a known bad batch of magazines got released by mistake. The guys from CP stepped up to the plate and admitted to the goof up. Heck, we ALL make mistakes (some of us more frequently than others ).

I bought two mags to test and neither worked. The inside dimensions on the mags were too tight. So tight in fact that the followers could not be pushed all the way down into the mag body.

CP sent me THREE new magazines to replace my TWO bad ones. They also gave me their UPS number so all I had to do was drop the mags in a box and run them by the local UPS shop. I had the new magazines in hand before I even got to the UPS store, IIRC.

I've run those three mags through a LOT of rounds in several rifles in semi-auto and full-auto. I haven't had a single failure out of them. I completely trust them.

If the Brownell's mags are the Creative Products mags, I'd say they are good to go.





Originally Posted By BookHound:
No problem, Rick. You guys have earned my business. CP makes some great products, like a lot of springs available through Brownells. Your mag springs are the best out there, IMHO. I live them better than the Wolfe springs.

CP is an honest company that stands by their products. Their products are top quality at a very fair price.

Stay safe on your deployment. You guys are in our prayers.




www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=257732
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:37:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:

Given that USGI mags are aluminum (they don't rust), and you can get them Teflon coated now from DH....is this a soultion to a non-existent problem?




I gotta go with Tack on this one.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:03:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Tack:

Given that USGI mags are aluminum (they don't rust), and you can get them Teflon coated now from DH....is this a soultion to a non-existent problem?




I gotta go with Tack on this one.



The simple fact is that steel magazines can tolerate abuse that a aluminum magazines cannot.

Just ask Paul Leitner-Wise. The only magazines that were still operable after the unfortunate fire that devastated their facility were the steel HK High Reliability magazines. The USGI aluminum magazines were utterly destroyed. Now, having said that, I don't think anybody expects to subject their magazines to such intensive abuse but it's nice to know that they can take it.

Just my two cents.

Justin
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:50:43 AM EDT
Heck I'll try a couple and then I will give my opinion. As far as a I am concerned reliability is my biggest concern with any mag. Every mag will wear out aluminum or not.

The other thing I like is someone getting out there and trying something new. Thinking outside of the box and looking for ways to improve something, heck it's the American way in my opinion. Many people will maintain that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but I like new stuff. Sounds like the soliders are going to give them the real test or fail? Just my .02

Keep us posted on when they become available and where we can go to order. Thanks
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:28:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By edblevi:
Heck I'll try a couple and then I will give my opinion. As far as a I am concerned reliability is my biggest concern with any mag. Every mag will wear out aluminum or not.

The other thing I like is someone getting out there and trying something new. Thinking outside of the box and looking for ways to improve something, heck it's the American way in my opinion. Many people will maintain that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but I like new stuff. Sounds like the soliders are going to give them the real test or fail? Just my .02

Keep us posted on when they become available and where we can go to order. Thanks



+1 IMO this is a no-brainer. A few may not like stainless material for their mags, but MANY are buying the $55-$60 H&K mags. CP is stepping up to produce a similar, if not better, product for 40% of the H&K cost.

I too criticized CP's earlier mags because they were utter junk. I was sent two mags to replace my faulty product AT NO COST TO ME and they work without fail. At last count I've put 800 rounds through each one, using two carbines and one rifle- no malfs. whatsoever.
Am I biased? Hell yes I'm biased; this is unheard of customer service. Unfortunately, with most things broken we are forced to eat the cost of the product; at the very least I've had to pay return postage. This doesn't always guarantee a fix. With CP it did and without the hang-ups of most other mfg.s
I'm looking forward to the SS mags and to shooting the hell out of them. I'll post results...good or bad.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:35:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 6:36:39 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:24:03 AM EDT
How about some 20 rounders?

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:29:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

The simple fact is that steel magazines can tolerate abuse that a aluminum magazines cannot.




That doesn't make it BETTER. Better involves compromise - size -vs- weight -vs- durability -vs- cost -vs- etc.....


I can build you a $5500, 10lb mega mag that would have microprocessor controlled feeding, but that doesn't make it BETTER



Just ask Paul Leitner-Wise. The only magazines that were still operable after the unfortunate fire that devastated their facility were the steel HK High Reliability magazines. The USGI aluminum magazines were utterly destroyed.



So what? Where does the spec call for fire resistance? I can drop a thermite grenade on those mags, and they will be destroyed too. I mean, COME ON. So steel melts at a higher temp than aluminum. So what?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:56:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By edblevi:
Heck I'll try a couple and then I will give my opinion. As far as a I am concerned reliability is my biggest concern with any mag. Every mag will wear out aluminum or not.

The other thing I like is someone getting out there and trying something new. Thinking outside of the box and looking for ways to improve something, heck it's the American way in my opinion. Many people will maintain that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but I like new stuff. Sounds like the soliders are going to give them the real test or fail? Just my .02

Keep us posted on when they become available and where we can go to order. Thanks



+1 IMO this is a no-brainer. A few may not like stainless material for their mags, but MANY are buying the $55-$60 H&K mags. CP is stepping up to produce a similar, if not better, product for 40% of the H&K cost.

I too criticized CP's earlier mags because they were utter junk. I was sent two mags to replace my faulty product AT NO COST TO ME and they work without fail. At last count I've put 800 rounds through each one, using two carbines and one rifle- no malfs. whatsoever.
Am I biased? Hell yes I'm biased; this is unheard of customer service. Unfortunately, with most things broken we are forced to eat the cost of the product; at the very least I've had to pay return postage. This doesn't always guarantee a fix. With CP it did and without the hang-ups of most other mfg.s
I'm looking forward to the SS mags and to shooting the hell out of them. I'll post results...good or bad.



I have not seen the CP mags in person, but looking at the pics I would have a hard time believing these CP mags are just as good IF not better than the HK mags.

C4



these are still being function tested.

I have a hard time believing that preproduction models are any indication of a final product's fit and finish.

aesthetics are not paramount to function.

that being said, I'll post results good or bad.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:25:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:51:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Well the HK mag for sure "looks" better, but that wasn't what I was using to compare and contrast.

First, I see 2 screws in the mag. Screws can back out (even with loc tite). The rear loop looks to big to get a mag pouch flap over it. There is a green follower in it (at least use the Magpul GEN II Enhanced follower). If the spring isn't an ISMI then that is one more thing that needs to be replaced if it is going to compare to the HK Mag.


C4



Grant, you may want to have another look at the pics. It would appear that there are actually 4 screws in the mags - 2 on each side.

I personally would be embarrassed to display a product that looks like this and certainly would not have the nerve to claim they are the best ever made or compare them to the HK mags. But, hey, that's just me.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:29:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:53:14 PM EDT
Guys.....Are we REALLY sure this isn't a solution in search of a problem?

I am all for the "Best" in all of my weapons systems, and have been for 40 years, but "C'mon"! These are a "Hoax" IMHO. What good do they (or the HK mags for that matter) serve over the USGI, DH Teflon Coated mags with the ISMI springs, Magpul Enhanced Followers and Ranger Plates??? tainless is for barrels...not mags!

Trust me. If I thought that a $200 Mag was better than what I just described....I would have 20 of them!

Tack
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:03:28 PM EDT
Those screws and floor plates have to go. Hopefully, we are seeing an early prototype.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:56:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 9:57:34 PM EDT by Stickman]

Originally Posted By Eric:
Those screws and floor plates have to go. Hopefully, we are seeing an early prototype.




I would hope so, and the changes to the overall product mean that T&E is going to need to be done, and info posted for people to follow up on. I can see this mag having a purpose for special units, as well as the overall crowd that simply must have the latest and greatest toys, but without seeing real feedback, its hard to make a call.

An indication of the finished product price would be nice.

Testing feedback woudl be great.

Whether it will take standard floorplates is important, because there is no way that loop on the bottom is going to stay on most peoples gear. Screws popping out is another HUGE concern.

If anyone has used these, and is a legit source, please post what you did, and what the conditions were, along with an overall feeling.


Thanks,
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:25:24 AM EDT
IMHO......To properly prove out a new magazine design, and claim equal to or better than std USGI... they should should be prepared to fire 250K rounds minimum, through at least 1/2 dozen weapons (Colt, so you know they are spec) and have no more than 3 magazine related malfunctions.

Any takers?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:44:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:
Guys.....Are we REALLY sure this isn't a solution in search of a problem?

I am all for the "Best" in all of my weapons systems, and have been for 40 years, but "C'mon"! These are a "Hoax" IMHO. What good do they (or the HK mags for that matter) serve over the USGI, DH Teflon Coated mags with the ISMI springs, Magpul Enhanced Followers and Ranger Plates??? tainless is for barrels...not mags!

Trust me. If I thought that a $200 Mag was better than what I just described....I would have 20 of them!

Tack




Agreed Tack.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:49:55 AM EDT
Just to clarify, I am told that the stainless steel magazine will be available with a standard floorplate that sits flush with the bottom of the magazine body.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:19:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:
Stainless is for barrels...not mags!


Tack



A year or two ago, this board cried foul on SS barrels, and I find it interesting that times change to now see the SS barrel as "wonderful" when some of us have been using them for a long time.

While these magazines may not be the ultimate mag, its also possible that they may be better than the standard USGI versions. With a minor increase in weight, but an increase in durability, I can see where this could be a large benefit, especially with the possibility of another AWB or similar ban in the future.

I'm not saying that these new magazines will be anything close to perfection, but I am interested in seeing if they are a solid, quality item that will hold up to abuse the way that AK mags will.


As already stated, I await test results from someone who I can verify as legit, and can describe the level of abuse that they put the magazine through. Simply giving a round count doesn't mean a thing to me, because in the real world, my magazines take a beating and don't live on a shelf.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:26:07 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:35:59 AM EDT
To all, thanks for your reply, supportive and non-supportive. Good and bad. Consrtuctive criticism is something we welcome and can learn from.
Eric, that foorplate is an early protoype developed for a saw gunner who had experienced floor plates breaking loose on full automatic. The floor plate that will be sold with the magazine is overmolded to a stainless steel floor plate and slides on. We will have the standard floor plate in SS. Our intention for showing the magazine was just the body appearance, that it looks exactly like the aluminum mag.
Please note, we have talked extensively with Rich at Magpul and have arrived at an agreement for a royalty on his patent for the floor plate. I will not go into the details I just want everyone to know that we have Rich's approval.
The picture did not have the anti-tilt follower as we had not completed the tests on the first samples. Again we have talked extensively with Rich concerning this and have his approval. We will however do testing with both and if we feel that Magpul is the better product for this magazine my partner and I will own a very expensive boat anchor.
I think that 250k rounds is alittle over the top, but I do agree the testing has to be done on many various weapons. Our plans are to do exactly that. I have contacted some of you such as Eric and other instructors and OEM's whose job it is to test weapons and they have volunteered to help us with an unbiased report.
Tack, thanks for making us aware of possible fracturing in the feed lips, we are testing the heat treat results again. We have fired over 1,000 rounds in one prototype with out problems and will continue to fire rounds until we are satified and then we will do it again.
If you have any comments, suggestions or questions please contact me via IM or post for everyone to read. Thanks.

CP

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:58:40 AM EDT
CP,

You may also consider filling in the mag catch area to help keep dirt out when the mag is dropped on the ground. HK and Thermolds have that feature. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:33:36 AM EDT
Thanks. We will look into that idea.

CP
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:55:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tochhc235:

If you have any comments, suggestions or questions please contact me via IM or post for everyone to read. Thanks.

CP



I'll be keeping my eye on this. If you want someone who has no experiance or bias with your company to test some of your mags I'll take a few to try out.

Tony
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:58:24 PM EDT
Ductility of 3xx (303-345)SS is 45% to 50%. It is hard to beat for an energy absorbing common alloy metal short of ultimate stress. Flexibility for Stainless is about like carbon steel, and about 3 times stiffer than aluminum, in the range from zero to yield stress (0.2% offset). 3xx "L" grades will field weld with minimum postweld rusting or corrosion sensitization. If the fabricator does not go too thin for material cost savings, the SS mag. should be a good one. Shearing can drag some vicious edges, so tumbling or other deburring action afterward should be manadatory.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:55:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 6:56:25 PM EDT by Stickman]

Originally Posted By tochhc235:
Our plans are to do exactly that. I have contacted some of you such as Eric and other instructors and OEM's whose job it is to test weapons and they have volunteered to help us with an unbiased report.





For myself, I think that is going to be one of the best indicators right there. Good Instructors have the ability to get the unit into the hands of all the right people, and are able to get a well balanced test. Instead of just relying on their own input, they can get the input and comments of those they work with and teach.

I am very curious to as when they wil be able to start, and what their findings will be. Eric is one of the instructors on this board who I have 100% confidence in, and who knows how to do T&E properly. Overall mag durability is something that has been brought up, and it will be nice to see that concern put to rest (one way or the other).

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:14:55 PM EDT
So what are the CP mags on 44mag.com?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
So what are the CP mags on 44mag.com?


Standard aluminum USGI type mags.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:27:36 AM EDT
i'm in the marine reserves and would be willing to give them a try.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:37:07 AM EDT
MONEY SENT!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:41:00 AM EDT
Everybody knows that I'm a mag whore so I'm standing by for Eric's report
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:55:20 AM EDT
Not to get off topic, but I have a question for the guys at Creative Products . I was wondering if you might be making mags for the 6.8x43 caliber at some point?
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:48:53 AM EDT
AKSU-74
At this time we do not. We are testing the stainless steel 30 round magazines as well as the 6.5 Grendel in stainless steel for Bill at Alexander Arms. Our plate is pretty full at this time but if the market continues to demand that product we would certainly take a serious look into that project.
Thanks for asking.
CP
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:20:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tochhc235:
I have contacted some of you such as Eric and other instructors and OEM's whose job it is to test weapons and they have volunteered to help us with an unbiased report.

CP



I'll volunteer as well. Not a professional weapons tester, but I can put the mags through a barrage of tests.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:38:17 AM EDT
Stick,
We will be sending magazines to those we have contacted by the end of the second week in January. We have also added as a test site through the efforts of Joe at SKD Tactical, West Point. Joe is an instructor at West Point and has generously offered their services.

CP
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:23:46 PM EDT
Good to hear, thankyou.
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