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Posted: 12/9/2003 8:49:34 PM EDT
First off, yes,I am Legal to posess as are the rest of my guys.

Here's the rub.

We have had a considerable number of magazines literally come apart at the welded seams over the last 2 years.
Usually at the top rear weld, or top front weld.
I also have found several that have just flat popped all the welds except one or two.

So far it is most common with the BFI Windham marked magazines from Bushmaster.

Also have had a few NHMTG S/42 marked Magazines pop at the seams.

Asking around within the "field" I have gotten back several replies that it isn't uncommon at all.

Anybody got any scoop as to what the dickens is going on?

I never have had an issue with personally owned Pre-ban or restricted mags from other manufacturers,and never with the Colt mags we used to issue.

Supposedly the BFI magazines and the NHMTG are Mil-spec according to our supplier....
I'm thinking he's full of Mule Fritters,or the mil-spec has changed.


Anybody got suggestions or answers?

As it is I am pricing the H&K mags,and trying to find a best deal on Colt L.E. mags hoping to compare and prove cost benefit over current attrition.

Thanks much in advance!

S-28



Link Posted: 12/10/2003 9:13:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 9:14:38 AM EDT by I-M-A-WMD]
My .02 I had purchased 5 new pre-ban BFI mags a couple years ago. I never used them since they were the really nice Gray teflon variety. I just stuffed em in the safe and considered them nice to have. Yet, everytime I pulled them out of the safe to fondle I found myself looking at the front seam. There was a gap as though the aluminum had not been folded over tightly enough and then it was welded which captured this space between the two folds of the aluminum. It certainly appeared to me that the welds were under stress due to this "captured" gap. With all the ARs I own and have owned, I have received numerous POS BFI 5 and/or 10 round mags. A couple-3?- of these post ban mags literally came apart at the seams. This disturbed me since the finish and weld pattern were the same as the pre ban 30s I had sitting in the safe. Soon I realized the reason I wasn't using the 30s was because I didn't want them to fall apart on me... I finally concluded that although the finish was very nice on the Pre-ban BFI 30s, I was not happy with their construction. I've heard that Labelle had manufactured the mags for BFI but inside I concluded that these were "Commercial" not "Mil-spec" mags and sold them to a buddy of mine who competes in USPSA 3-gun competitions. He doesn't shoot his AR much except at the competitions so we're going to see how long they hold up for him. (And yes, I told him my suspicions before I sold him the mags.) Sly
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:04:30 PM EDT
Sly, Thanks for the feedback. I got ahold of BFI today and waited on hold for as long as I can tolerate before hanging up. Gonna try again tomorrow.If this is just a production run thing I really don't wish to damn the entire inventory. Even if the seams and welds all look the same...from this angle anyway. I'll post whatever I glean. Thanks again! S28
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:11:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 11:50:06 AM EDT by WILSON]
S-28: Anybody got suggestions or answers?
View Quote
S-28, no suggestions or answers, just a [I]FWIW[/I]. I've had a few (six or seven, I think) come apart exactly the way you described. The thing that doesn't match, it that it's been happening to mine for a [b]lot[/b] longer than two years... AAMOF, I don't think it [u]has[/u] happened for a year or two. But that's because ([i]I think[/i][>:/]) I finally figured out what was happening. [BD] So this probably doesn't have anything to do with anything. I keep an old commando and a dedicated shooting box in my vehicle nearly 100% of the time (be prepared -- you never know when an unknown shooting range will sneak-up on you!). There's no way in the world I can prove this, but I think one or all of three things were happening. My vehicle isn't static, it's constantly moving & vibrating. There's nothing I can do about that. But I never leave 28 or 30 rounds in mags I know will get bounced around for a long time anymore. I'm convinced it puts too much strain on em, especially the top welds. I know more "feels better" but 20 or 25 is more than enough. At least IMO. Twenty-rounders seem tougher. The rifle stays in a padded case (I like those, they just work-out best for me). But it does get tossed around too much to keep mags in the mag pouches on the side anymore. I know that's not cool or tactical, but I just got tired of beating the hell out of $20+ prebans. When I keep 'em in the cheap (stinky surplus smellin') 3-packs w the grenade pouches cut off, they seem to last a lot longer. [BD] [i]$0,000.02[/i]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:14:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 11:16:25 AM EDT by P806]
Strange, I've got 10 of the NHMTG mags that I bought 2 years ago and they're fine, no broken welds and these mags stay loaded also. Edited to add: I keep 25 rounds loaded in my duty mags.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:30:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 2:56:16 PM EDT by GRH2]
S-28: j3_ provided this link: http://www.starpayn.com/asbca/49307.html It is very interesting, and explains the LaBelle weld and seam problems in detail. It's well worth the time to read. I now regret buying the LaBelle mags I have.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:28:11 PM EDT
Yeah, I read that earlier today GRH2. I kinda doubt if there's any manufacturer who hasn't had a few roaches slip out, but that surprised me a little too. LaBelle is the only contractor I would've sworn I never got a bad one from. [:(] I've got a baggie full of 30rd mag base plates around here somewhere, I'll dig them up (I run 'em over when they get too weird, but I can't seem to throw away old base plates or springs!).
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:54:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 1:47:55 PM EDT by GRH2]
Something else I noticed about my LaBelles besides the poor seams and spot weld run-out. If you take a ruler and push the follower down slowly it will hit a tight spot about about 3/4 of the way down. It's not tight enough to cause a malfunction, but it is noticable. All my LaBells have the tight spot in the same place. None of my Parsons or Center mags have this tight spot.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:34:29 AM EDT
[url]http://www.weaponforums.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=175848[/url] Troy, get in here! This could snowball. There's a lot of LaBelles teflon and dry lubed, coming to the surface from somewhere, and an awful lot of us "investing" in them. Bushy and DPMS sell/sold their mags, and now they're surfacing in their own GI bags. Is their trouble? Are their serious concerns here, or can we put this thing to bed? /S2
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 11:19:06 AM EDT
I don't have a one. Only due to previous problems with a vendor who has sold alot of them. Now I'm glad, I guess, but I'd still like to hear about problems people have had as I was just getting ready to buy a bunch from a couple of guys on the EE. This is the first time I heard about problems BEFORE I bought. Usually, a couple of days after I research something new and buy it, I start hearing about problmes.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 12:45:50 PM EDT
Guys, Thanks for the links and the feedback. Mags are loaded with 28.Yes they get BANGED around 24-7.No more so than Military issued mags however.Something ain't right. I dunno if Labelle is the original maker or not. All I know is the floorplate is stamped BFI Windham and manufactured between 00 and 3-03 so far,but have added a couple hundered made 5-03 to the mix. I have started keeping a log to note date of manufacture and nature of failure,but I'm already behind the curve as so many have popped, been destroyed, and then replaced as we consider them an expendible item. I got put on hold again at Bushy and hung up after 7 min. Will try again Monday. I'll also pound the logs and get a number of failures and compare that number to the number in the field so's there is a percentage I can toss in the pile for justification on changing over to (Hopefully) something better. Thanks again! S28
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:46:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 11:06:57 AM EDT by GRH2]
Just to add a little more detail about the LaBelle Magazines I have (read my first two posts above). They were just bought about two weeks ago from a well known (and respected) dealer who advertises on this website. I have seen the same LaBelle magazines for sale by other dealers also. They are sold (advertised) as NIW USGI LaBelle 30-round magazines. They are powder coated, with green followers. The plastic wrapp is sealed and looks like they were never tampered with. The STRANGE thing about these magazines is the rappers have all the normal USGI markings i.e. NSN, description, contract number. BUT, WHAT IS MISSING is the date of manufacture, and the CAGE code. EDITED to add this paragraph: One of the issues was that LeBelle requested more money for the contract because they were required to include the "modified" followers (the green followers). If I remember correctly it said this was done in 1991 or 1992, so since mine have the green followers we know they were manufactured after this date (right before they went out of bussiness). End of EDIT Read the link provided by j3_ (it's in my first posting above or two posts down). It describes in detail the problems LaBelle was having meeting government contract standards. It's lengthy, and it helps if you understand military lingo, but is worth the time it takes to read it all. It even discusses some issues with Parsons that were accuring at the same time. Troy you really should read it too, it would be good information to add to your Magazine FAQ. And the saga continues [:)]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:06:26 PM EDT
Per Latest Guidance from SOF Higher, OKay and HK Steel mags are the best, others dont cut the mustard.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:09:47 PM EDT
[url]http://www.starpayn.com/asbca/49307.html[/url] Made link Hot.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:07:21 PM EDT
Hey, even though there are not a lot of replys - there sure are a lot of people reading this thread [:)]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:18:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0: Per Latest Guidance from SOF Higher, OKay and HK Steel mags are the best, others dont cut the mustard.
View Quote
Well, I hear the latest batch of HK steel mags aren't as good as the first run. Some have experienced malfunctions with the new batch. I seem to remember Pat Rogers making a comment about this as well.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:51:53 PM EDT
Once again. Thanks guys! The official channels are tied in knots thanks to politics. Just want me and mine to have stuff that works. So do lots of folks that have no clue as to the issue that might affect them through my guys. Many,Many thanks! I'm learning quite a bit through all of ya! S28
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:20:03 AM EDT
Some of the HK mags also experience problems with the finish, and corrosion. I dunno if ours were from the first, second, or whatever batch, but 2 of 3 ended up getting replaced by our distributor. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:35:40 AM EDT
j3, you've got too much time on your hands!
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:11:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GRH2: Just to add a little more detail about the LaBelle Magazines I have (read my first two posts above). They were just bought about two weeks ago from a well known (and respected) dealer who advertises on this website. I have seen the same LaBelle magazines for sale by other dealers also. They are sold (advertised) as NIW USGI LaBelle 30-round magazines. They are powder coated, with green followers. The plastic wrapp is sealed and looks like they were never tampered with. The STRANGE thing about these magazines is the rappers have all the normal USGI markings i.e. NSN, description, contract number. BUT, WHAT IS MISSING is the date of manufacture, and the CAGE code. EDITED to add this paragraph: One of the issues was that LeBelle requested more money for the contract because they were required to include the "modified" followers (the green followers). If I remember correctly it said this was done in 1991 or 1992, so since mine have the green followers we know they were manufactured after this date (right before they went out of bussiness). End of EDIT Read the link provided by j3_ (it's in my first posting above or two posts down). It describes in detail the problems LaBelle was having meeting government contract standards. It's lengthy, and it helps if you understand military lingo, but is worth the time it takes to read it all. It even discusses some issues with Parsons that were accuring at the same time. Troy you really should read it too, it would be good information to add to your Magazine FAQ. And the saga continues [:)]
View Quote
Provide the complete contract number on the pkg. and I will check it out.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 5:36:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2003 5:40:00 AM EDT by GRH2]
RustyTX: Thanks, all the information is listed below: Barcode NSN: 1005-00-921-5004 Magazine Assembly 30 Rd. 5.56MM 1 each Contract Number DAAA09-87-C-0015 LaBelle Industries, Inc. Oconomowoc, Wisconsin 53066 As I was typing this I noticed something strange about the NSN. Unless the Army has changed it's supply system since I retired (12Z - 1997), the 00 should have been changed to 01 after the green followers were added.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 12:27:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 1:12:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2003 1:18:26 PM EDT by RustyTX]
Originally Posted By GRH2: RustyTX: Thanks, all the information is listed below: Barcode NSN: 1005-00-921-5004 Magazine Assembly 30 Rd. 5.56MM 1 each Contract Number DAAA09-87-C-0015 LaBelle Industries, Inc. Oconomowoc, Wisconsin 53066 As I was typing this I noticed something strange about the NSN. Unless the Army has changed it's supply system since I retired (12Z - 1997), the 00 should have been changed to 01 after the green followers were added.
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The '00' or '01' you refer to would more likely indicate U.S. or NATO/FMS usage. I don't have a manual here or I'd give the exact, but '00' is U.S. DoD. I have data on this NSN from 1981 to 1999 and this CAGE [i]only[/i] appears on the contracts below. The rest of the CAGEs (contractors) are well known. Here are the lines I have for these contract numbers and the CAGE lookup too (its not what you think, but the City, State match for Labelle that has been posted in the past): DAAA0987C0015 10/17/86 1005009215004 1154653 $ 2.6583 90435 - QUEST TECHNOLOGIES I DAAA0987C0015 10/01/86 1005009215004 1154653 $ 2.5800 90435 - QUEST TECHNOLOGIES I DAAA0987C0015 10/01/86 1005009215004 1154653 $ 2.6600 90435 - QUEST TECHNOLOGIES I ----------------------------------------------- CAGE: 90435 Record Expires: 11182003 Company: QUEST TECHNOLOGIES, INC. DUNS: 006076632 DUNS +4: D.B.A.: QUEST TECHNOLOGIES, INC. Division: 1060 CORPORATE CENTER DR. OCONOMOWOC, WI 53066-4828 UNITED STATES P.O.C.: Phone: Fax: E-mail: SIC: 3825 3829 3999 SIC Definition: INSTRUMENTS TO MEASURE ELECTRICITY MEASURING & CONTROLLING DEVICES, NE MANUFACTURING INDUSTRIES, NEC Business Type: MF XS Business Type Definition: Manufacturer S Corporation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Commercial and Government Entity Codes (CAGE) CAGE STATUS TYPE CAO ADP 90435 A A S1403A SC1002 COMPANY NAME AND ADDRESS QUEST TECHNOLOGIES INC1060 CORPORATE CTR DR OCONOMOWOC WI 53066 UNITED STATES PHONE: ***Removed by me*** BUSINESS SIZE PRIMARY BUSINESS BUSINESS TYPE WOMAN OWNED A J N N SIC CODES FIPS CITY-STATE-COUNTY CODES 3825 59250 55 59250 CAGE CLEAR-TEXT DATAM M 864-126 M -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related CAGE codes for 90435 CAGE STATUS TYPE CAO ADP 1FY88 R F S1403A SC1002 COMPANY NAME AND ADDRESS QUEST ELECTRONICS OCONOMOWOC WI 53066 UNITED STATES REPLACEMENT CAGE ASSOCIATION CAGE AFFILIATION CODE 90435 CAGE CLEAR-TEXT DATAM CAGE STATUS TYPE CAO ADP 016P3 R A S1403A SC1002 COMPANY NAME AND ADDRESS QUEST TECHNOLOGIES OCONOMOWOC WI 53066 UNITED STATES REPLACEMENT CAGE ASSOCIATION CAGE AFFILIATION CODE 90435 CAGE CLEAR-TEXT DATA192 M
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 1:25:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 6:01:55 AM EDT by RustyTX]
Originally Posted By Troy: La Belle went out of business around 96-97. The USGI contract was moved to a company called General Stamping (which has since changed it's name to something else). Obviously, it could not have been La Belle making the recent teflon LEO mags, so the question is: who is? Can someone post the CAGE code from their recent (i.e., 2000 or later) teflon mags from Bushmaster, DPMS, or other "reliable" source? -Troy
View Quote
This is the first data I have under the General Stamping name (the replacement CAGE of 04TQ4 was for an outfit named D&H): DAAE2099C0034 03/04/99 1005009215004 30000 $ 4.9700 1D8Y5 - GENERAL STAMPING CO CAGE STATUS TYPE CAO ADP 1D8Y5 R F S1403A SC1002 COMPANY NAME AND ADDRESS GENERAL STAMPING CO INC2300 S 170TH ST NEW BERLIN WI 53151 UNITED STATES PHONE: ***removed by me*** BUSINESS SIZE PRIMARY BUSINESS BUSINESS TYPE WOMAN OWNED A N N N REPLACEMENT CAGE ASSOCIATION CAGE AFFILIATION CODE 04TQ4 *edited to remove incomplete sentence*
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 4:48:45 PM EDT
What I understand by reading RustyTX's posts is that the markings on the LaBelle mag wrappers that are being marketed lately do not correspond to LaBelle Industries. Am I understanding that right? I nearly bought some from ammoman after reading some posts here. Is it all a hoax?
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 4:32:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 4:34:13 AM EDT by GRH2]
RustyTX: The '00' I was referring to is the second set of numbers in the NSN. It denotes the parts specification as being original or modified. 00 is the original specification and 01 meaning first modification, 02 second modification, and so on. So magazines with the green followers should have a number other than 00. But it's possible during the transition they continued to use old wrappers until they were depleted. I think this saga of LaBelle magazines has reached the status of "beating a dead horse".
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:59:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GRH2: RustyTX: The '00' I was referring to is the second set of numbers in the NSN. It denotes the parts specification as being original or modified. 00 is the original specification and 01 meaning first modification, 02 second modification, and so on. So magazines with the green followers should have a number other than 00. But it's possible during the transition they continued to use old wrappers until they were depleted. I think this saga of LaBelle magazines has reached the status of "beating a dead horse".
View Quote
Thanks for pointing that out. I found my loggie book and it shows both '00' and '01' to be DoD and then '11' would be NATO and so on for each country or org... it does not distinguish between 00 and 01 ,etc. so that makes sense. [b]For everyone else concerning Labelle[/b]: I don't mean to imply anything by posting the facts regarding the contracts. When I scanned the contract history of this NSN there is no 'Labelle' ever mentioned as a contractor yet we all know that they made the mags and are stamped as such. So one could 'assume' that Labelle was a DBA for Quest or possibly an acquired co. name, etc. That is just a reasonable assumption on my part, but draw your own conclusions. I make no promises or claims as to these being the 'only' contracts, but can only tell you that my data is generally reliable and we don't miss much, but feel free to check it out on your own. I am confident of the dates of the contracts as quoted. As far as the coatings, etc. I have no data and would not speculate.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 3:28:16 PM EDT
Never expected for this to run this far! I appreciate all the info from all of you! One thing though. The name Labelle keeps coming up. Is Labelle the original manufacturer for the BFI and NHMTG s/42 mags? I am halfway through tracking the numbers of bad mags for this year alone, and it's 17 so far. I just wish I had kept track of the date codes from the start. Thanks again! S-28
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