Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Ammunition
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Page / 2
Next Page Arrow Left
Link Posted: 5/14/2020 7:35:52 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 5/14/2020 10:50:45 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
here's the poo-poohed video with the folks at Federal talking about velocity and pistol v rifle class of wounding.  Conversation begins at about 5:00.

Watch and decide for yourself

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
here's the poo-poohed video with the folks at Federal talking about velocity and pistol v rifle class of wounding.  Conversation begins at about 5:00.

Watch and decide for yourself

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y

Start at the 8:00 minute mark of that same video.
"...however at the same time you launch that little bitty 55 grain pill coming out of an AR-15 at two and a half times the speed of sound, and it hits, and you see that radical planar tearing where you have tissue damage 5....6...inches away from the path of the bullet.  That's what creates that rapid hemorrhage, the blood pressure drop, the shock setting in, tissue disruption...hopefully in the right location...uh...cardiopulmonary collapse, and things cease, lights go out. "

Take that quote, and compare it exactly to what Fackler stated:

Idolatry of Velocity
Misinterpretation of the mechanism by which the M-16 rifle causes tissue disruption perpetuated the foregoing misconceptions. The M-16 (Fig 2) was introduced in Vietnam, and many compared the increased tissue disruption it produced (12-14, 49, 50) with that caused by previous military rifles. In the Vietnam era, the major role played by bullet fragmentation in tissue disruption was not recognized (8). It is now appreciated (12-14) and documented (Fig 3) that bullet fragmentation is the predominant reason underlying the M-16's increased tissue disruption. Despite this recent evidence, a generation of surgeons and weapon developers (28) has been confused and prejudiced by the assumption that "high velocity" and "temporary cavitation" were the sole causes of tissue disruption .


High velocity (above stretch/tearing speed) itself does not equal massive tissue damage.  That does not mean that there there is not an elastic limit to tissue (there is, and it varies).

Is just means that high velocity (in terms of stretch/tearing) is a force multiplier that works in conjunction with a primary wounding mechanism such as fragmentation or expansion, or even tumbling/yawing.
Link Posted: 5/14/2020 12:18:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
here's the poo-poohed video with the folks at Federal talking about velocity and pistol v rifle class of wounding.  Conversation begins at about 5:00.

Watch and decide for yourself

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
View Quote
I mean, if we're just going to repost links, here's the 7n6 study again where it was shown that bullets traveling at 2900 FPS did practically no damage besides crushing effects in many elastic tissues.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090219104944/http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/ak74_wounding_potential.pdf

I don't know why you're so hung up on that one video, especially when the chief researchers who actually come up with this kind of theory have said otherwise. Again, ammo manufacturers are not wound ballistics scientists, hence why we see dumb shit like Hornady promoting 6-10 inches of penetration as "ideal" for home defense.
Link Posted: 5/14/2020 11:04:02 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't necessarily think the guy in the video is wrong, I just think he only tells half the story. Maybe he didn't think it necessary to mention the need for upset since all rifle (spitzer) bullets do upset..eventually. The problem is that the longer the neck, the less total damage it does. And in thin targets, or at odd angles, it may even yaw too late.

I also think the 2,200fps mentioned is probably a good base number needed for a small caliber like a 5.56 to cause damage outside the crushing path. But I think that number can be lower with larger projectiles.
The picture of the 300blk exit wound in the hog posted earlier in this thread is proof of that.

I'm not "poo poohing" the video. I just find it strange how that one video can influence someone so much, especially after being presented written articles by well known ballistics experts and actual pictures that show that his argument is simply not true.
Link Posted: 5/15/2020 5:23:58 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By leid:
Below are actual examples of tissue damage done by relatively low speed rifle bullets on whitetail. Both were raking shots but from opposite sides. Exit wounds are both in the mid level of the chest cavity just in front of the diaphragm. IMO, bullets designed to expand and/or fragment at lower impact velocity are game-changers when it comes to terminal performance.

Exit wound: 110GR. TAC-TX impacted of approx. 2014 FPS:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/42284/300BLK_110GR__TAC-TX__exit_wound_at_150y-1403661.JPG

Exit wound: 110GR. TAC-TX impacted of approx. 1821 FPS:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/42284/300BLK_110GR__TAC-TX_exit_wound_at_225yd-1403664.JPG
View Quote






Hi Leid, do you know how large that exit wound was for the 2014 FPS Tac-TX? Looks approximately 1.5" in diameter.




Link Posted: 5/15/2020 7:19:38 AM EDT
[#6]
That exit wound was close to 2" wide. The 110GR. TAC-TX bullets have earned their reputation for top-shelf 300BLK terminal performance.
Link Posted: 5/15/2020 6:36:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By swampvol:
I don't necessarily think the guy in the video is wrong, I just think he only tells half the story. Maybe he didn't think it necessary to mention the need for upset since all rifle (spitzer) bullets do upset..eventually. The problem is that the longer the neck, the less total damage it does. And in thin targets, or at odd angles, it may even yaw too late.

I also think the 2,200fps mentioned is probably a good base number needed for a small caliber like a 5.56 to cause damage outside the crushing path. But I think that number can be lower with larger projectiles.
The picture of the 300blk exit wound in the hog posted earlier in this thread is proof of that.

I'm not "poo poohing" the video. I just find it strange how that one video can influence someone so much, especially after being presented written articles by well known ballistics experts and actual pictures that show that his argument is simply not true.
View Quote


I agree,
I think what he said was at a very high, very general level.  I think it was conflated with something different, taken out of context, and repeated as gospel.

I'd break it down into three areas:
1.  Is there a speed in which a projectile can exceed the elasticity of human tissue?   That is a physiological question with limited variables such as the tissue itself (fat? muscle? soft organs? lungs? blood vessels? health of tissue, including being weakened from fragmentation).   Someone may give a general answer of "x" fps, to cover many of the variables.   Bone would be an easier example to understand.  It either breaks or it does not.   What that particular fps does not state is the extent of damage.  (Similar to bone, it is either broken or not broken.  If it IS broken, is it a hairline crack? clean break? , compound fracture? Is it shattered with bone fragments causing more damage?).  "Stretch" damage that is only 1/4th a MM away from the wound isn't really a big deal.  Which leads to #2

2. I think the extent of damage is where all the other factors come into play.  Such as caliber, bullet shape, bullet construction, velocity, weight, angle of entry, etc.  How does that bullet react when it impacts?  There are tons of variables here.  You can be above "x" speed and do very little damage, or below "x" speed and do massive damage.  2200fps might be a general number where you exceed elasticity for 5.56, but all the other factors come into play in terms of extent.  There are so many factors, that is just gets glossed over. Which leads to #3.

3. Somehow 55gr 5.56 FMJ traveling at +2800fps, impacting, turning 90 degrees, and exploding (maximum extent of damage from fragmentation) has been conflated with "rifle damage", which has also been conflated with tissue elasticity of "x" fps.   So what we are left with is: 2200 fps = "devastating rifle damage", which isn't true at all, and ignores all the factors of #2.  
 
Link Posted: 5/15/2020 8:37:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By leid:
That exit wound was close to 2" wide. The 110GR. TAC-TX bullets have earned their reputation for top-shelf 300BLK terminal performance.
View Quote


I honestly never thought that an intermediate monolithic bullet could make a 2” exit wound. I’m guessing it hit bone?
Link Posted: 5/15/2020 9:36:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Correct. That raking shot impacted rib bones on the way into & on the way out of the vital organs inside the chest cavity. The expanded TAC-TX bullet had enough energy left to virtually remove approx. 2" of bone and the surrounding intercostal muscle tissue as it exited.
Link Posted: 5/16/2020 4:39:33 AM EDT
[#10]
A .223 bullet traveling point forward won't do even a single millimeter's worth of temporary cavitation damage in most tissues. Note the 5.45 study where even the 7n6 bullets that yawed did not create wounds larger than themselves, except in the inflexible liver.

Drag, which is primarily responsible for temporary cavitation, is some combination of frontal area*instantaneous velocity*projectile shape coefficient. I am not sure what the exact value of each variable is since this may vary by medium, but it is likely that these are the main factors that contribute to the effect.

What this means is that a needle traveling point forward at 5000 FPS will probably do less temporary cavitation damage than a handgun JHP, i.e. pretty much none in elastic organs.

As for the general velocity range where most 5.56 SP/JHP starts causing damage, it is almost certainly much lower than 2200 FPS for the more destructive fragmenting rounds (e.g. 77 gr TMK) and likely lower even for bonded JSPs. Consider that Dr. Roberts has said .357 JSPs, which usually expand around 0.55 inches wide, tend to start causing damage at only 1600 FPS. 5.56 bullets are much less massive but often attain relatively greater expansion compared to their starting diameter - they usually end up somewhere around 0.45" above 2000 FPS.
Page / 2
Next Page Arrow Left
Page AR-15 » Ammunition
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top