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How bad would things have to get to where I would need more than six or seven 30 round magazines of "HD" ammo?  What would that look like?  Zombie Apocalypse?  Meteor strike?  Coronavirus pandemic?

Lastly, if you or I are engaged in a real-life scenario (being fired upon) to the point we NEED six or seven+ magazines of "HD" ammo; you are not likely to survive that kind of onslaught.  Again, please tell me what that would even look like.  I'm all ears.

Not trying to provoke anyone, I am just trying to have a healthy, realistic discussion about ammo choices.

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AZgunner is absolutely correct in his last statement.

Listen fellas, I respect everyone's opinions on ammo choice especially because it's your money so do with it what you think is appropriate.

However, most of you guys are WAAAAAYYY overthinking this stuff.

The OP specifically mentioned "home-defense", which in my mind means distances of not more than 50 meters at most!!

Let's be realistic.  If someone were to get shot with ANY .223 or 5.56 rifle round at anything less than 50 meters, especially if they were to get hit in the upper torso, that person/bad guy is going to have a very, very, very bad day no matter what bullet they get hit with.  I am not speaking from a theoretical standpoint.  I have twelve years of military service and 20 years of police work under my belt.

Yes, pick a well-developed round such as any Gold Dot, Fusion, or any Mk262 type round.  They would be fantastic choices,  BUT shot placement is far more important than ammo choice.

Getting hit in the upper torso with any 5.56 round at close distance is going to be really, really bad news.

Furthermore, any mention of what an ammo type will do at 500 yds within a home/self-defense discussion is an absolutely mute point, as no one is ever going to shoot at another human being at 500 yds away in a home/self-defense scenario.  Seriously, what would that even look like?

Let's be serious about how many rounds you realistically need for home/self-defense.  Yes, buy as much as you want while you can get it, but how much do you really need??  Hell, I have about 11,000 rounds of .223/5.56 in my basement, but I probably have less than 200 "self-defense" rounds such as Gold Dot and MagTech Mk262 clone.  Again, just because I tend to think realistically.

How bad would things have to get to where I would need more than six or seven 30 round magazines of "HD" ammo?  What would that look like?  Zombie Apocalypse?  Meteor strike?  Coronavirus pandemic?

Lastly, if you or I are engaged in a real-life scenario (being fired upon) to the point we NEED six or seven+ magazines of "HD" ammo; you are not likely to survive that kind of onslaught.  Again, please tell me what that would even look like.  I'm all ears.

Not trying to provoke anyone, I am just trying to have a healthy, realistic discussion about ammo choices.

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More like 20 meters

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...In terms of HD/SD weapons and ammo, I've longed ago stopped caring what the ammo does at 400 yards.    I barely care what it does at 300 yards.

What I care about is 0 to 150 or 200 yards.  Energy? Accuracy? Limited Muzzle flash, blast, and noise?  Does it handle easily?  All of that is far more important than 500 yard ballistics...

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This is why my primary 10.5" HD rifle is chambered in 300BO and is fed 110 gr Hornady Black supers!

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Yeah, an 8" 300blk suppressed is what sits beside my bed for HD, my 11.5" suppressed 5.56 loaded with MK318 is what I'd take with me first if on the move during some sort of SHTF zombie apocalypse.

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A realistic conversation should include the FACT that M193 fails to yaw/fragment a significant percentage of the time.  As do most (probably all) yaw dependent projectiles.

Some of us actually shoot stuff.  Sometimes way out there.  In any HD/SD situation, like the idea of having a projectile that has proven it's effectiveness to me in real life.  And sometimes in real life I'm shooting at a hog/coyote/skunk/chupacabra at more than across the room distances.

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A realistic conversation should include the FACT that M193 fails to yaw/fragment a significant percentage of the time.  As do most (probably all) yaw dependent projectiles.

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So I guess you shoot CB caps for self defense?  I mean, nothing but shot placement matters, so why bother with a silly old 22LR.

Seriously, shot placement is a straw man argument.  Yes, if you miss, it doesn't matter what kind of bullet you're shooting.  Thanks for that grand piece of wisdom.

And I've personally had M193 icepick at barrel tap distances, much less across the room, from a 16" tube.  This thread is about an 11.5" tube, which will have even less velocity.

Sure, M193 will give you an 80+% chance of working on the first shot, maybe 90+%.  Modern bonded expanding projectiles will give you upwards of 99% dependability.  I'll take every edge I can get.

It's really not about how bad M193 is, it's about how much better modern options have become.

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What do you all mean by "icepick" in this context?

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So I guess you shoot CB caps for self defense?  I mean, nothing but shot placement matters, so why bother with a silly old 22LR.

Seriously, shot placement is a straw man argument.  Yes, if you miss, it doesn't matter what kind of bullet you're shooting.  Thanks for that grand piece of wisdom.

And I've personally had M193 icepick at barrel tap distances, much less across the room, from a 16" tube.  This thread is about an 11.5" tube, which will have even less velocity.

Sure, M193 will give you an 80+% chance of working on the first shot, maybe 90+%.  Modern bonded expanding projectiles will give you upwards of 99% dependability.  I'll take every edge I can get.

It's really not about how bad M193 is, it's about how much better modern options have become.

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I completely agree with you.  Yes, there is no reason to pick "ball" ammo when there are great options like Mk262 or any Gold Dot/Fusion rounds.

All of my HD/SD 5.56 mags are loaded with either MagTech Mk262 clone, or 64gr Gold Dots.

The point I was trying to make is that if all you have at your disposal is "ball" ammo (with proper shot placement) it is going to be very, very effective!

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77gr TMK can fail to penetrate adequately from a 20" barrel.

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FYI... Creedmoor Sports sells a 69gr TMK .223 load. Those might stabilize better... HOWEVER.. I have no idea about ballistic performance from a 10.5 -12.5 barrel

Claimed velocity is ( no mention of barrel length ) 2875fps... YMMV.........https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/2587/Creedmoor-Ammunition

.

16" performance BH 5.56 69gr TMK... no velocity shown... and penetration "might" be deeper from a lower impact velocity, from a shorter barrel.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/171545/_____5_56-69-Gr_-TMK-1306800.jpg

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Aaron Cowan and Steve Fisher both use 75gr Gold Dot in their SBRs. That's a good endorsement.

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Precisely.

Talking about "self-defense"ammo , and then mentioning what any type of ammo will to at 500 meters is rubbish to say the least.

Don't get me wrong.  I LOVE the AR-15 rifle.  IMO, it is the best weapon ever conceived, but we all need to be realistic about ammo.

Getting shot with ANY type of .223 or 5.56 ammo is going to be absolutely devastating.  Anyone who thinks otherwise has never seen first-hand what a high-velocity .223/5.56 round will do to the human body.

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75gr gold dot is a mean round, but wouldn’t the velocity be a bit lacking in an SBR? I really wish 5.56 gold dots were still a thing.

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Seems like the GD 75’s get most of their acceleration from the first bit of barrel length, and are made to get a decent amount of speed from SBRs. Or, put another way, they gain less than some other rounds from a longer barrel. I’d trust them to perform well at any reasonable HD distance from a SBR. They’re not my go-to, but I’ve used them, would recommend them, and am a fan. If barrier blind performance were a higher priority for me, they’d (or the 55’s, would) probably be my pick over my TMKs.

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The 75gr Gold Dot was designed specifically for SBR’s.

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I use Hornady 75gr TAP SBR for HD in my 10.5 & 11.5 inch guns.

EDIT: Same load in their "Training" round for range and training.

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Definitely wish they were cheaper. They’re such an awesome bullet. Extremely lethal, very precise, and extremely efficient over distance. If they weren’t also so expensive they’d be all I’d ever shoot.

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Something to consider in a self-defense shooting, especially in the civilian context, is that the person you are shooting will be very near you. If you've ever shot a deer, you know that sometimes even a .308 with a great bullet punching both lungs and the heart won't drop the deer for 25-75 yards. Nothing you can fire from the shoulder is going to drop someone before they can stick a knife in you, unless:

1) They choose to stop.
2) You hit the CNS.

Terminal ballistics is always a good thing to keep in mind, but rapid, effective hits are the only real solution.

This is not nearly as sexy, as it involves hard work and training and personal improvement and cannot be "bought" like a box of ammo.

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I have yet to find a weapon that likes them. The best group I've gotten from them was a little over 2moa, from guns that have shot 1-1.1moa with other ammo. (10 shots, 100 yards).

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Actually, it did quite well in the below linked ARFCOM video from an 11.5" barrel. 19.5" of penetration, with a velocity of 2370 fps. The recovered round showed good expansion too.

https://youtu.be/2lkI36eUoy4

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Something to consider in a self-defense shooting, especially in the civilian context, is that the person you are shooting will be very near you. If you've ever shot a deer, you know that sometimes even a .308 with a great bullet punching both lungs and the heart won't drop the deer for 25-75 yards. Nothing you can fire from the shoulder is going to drop someone before they can stick a knife in you, unless:

1) They choose to stop.
2) You hit the CNS.

Terminal ballistics is always a good thing to keep in mind, but rapid, effective hits are the only real solution.

This is not nearly as sexy, as it involves hard work and training and personal improvement and cannot be "bought" like a box of ammo.

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Reading through this thread, and curious where the Hornady Black 5.56 75gr Interlock HD SBR load fits into the other factory loadings being mentioned. I have several mags of that and is what sits in my go to gun.

Trying to figure out some of Hornady's TAP loadings, and frustrating how the actual bullets being used are hidden behind branding.

I'd also like some the FBI 62GR 5.56 TBBC loads but not many places sell it. Wonder what is behind the general lack of quality 5.56 rounds with effective loadings. You can buy all the cheap FMJ you want but 5.56 loads with good bullets are hard to get or you run into LE restricted BS.

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Is TAP T2 still considered a solid choice for an 11.5" if I do not want to penetrate walls? What else would you recommend base on that requirement?

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I’ve seen some gnarly as fuck pictures of people shot with 5.56.