77gr TMK can fail to penetrate adequately from a 20" barrel.

Good information.
Length matters (that's what she said....or was it girth?)  Anyway...

I run 77/75gr pills for my 5.56's (12.5", 16", and 20"), BUT it is on the assumption that the 20" won't be used for shooting anything up close unless everything has gone wrong. Honestly, I should probably just dump my 20".  I don't shoot it now, and I probably won't go 6.5G.  In a SHTF situation, I'm grabbing my 16" first.

My department uses this. 55gr Hornady TAP. I've seen a number of posts where guys say it's no good as a HD round, but several dead bad guys over the last couple years would disagree.

I imagine most quality rounds will do just fine out of an 11.5 barrel at any realistic HD distance. As always, shot placement is king.

Yeah, for most of the rounds we are talking about at HD distances, it simply degrees of dead, deader, and deadest.

"My favorite bullet has a 9th degree black belt in super most deadest".

"Oh yeah?  Well my favorite bullet took an eight-week program, where it learned a system of self-defense that was developed in over two seasons of fighting in the Octagon. It's called 100gr Rex Kwon Do!"
"Whoa!  That is the deadest!  It should be illegal".

I wouldn’t doubt it, if these things get pushed too fast they’ll penetrate correspondingly less. They excel in a short barrels at HD range. I’d assume the 69gr TMK would do the same from <20” barrels for the same reason.

Do you know how far TMK 77’s penetrate from a 20”? I only shoot mine up to a 16” but it’d be neat to know. My 16” pass throughs on doe

Unless you're using a .50 BMG shot placement is the most important factor

Hornady critical defense 73gr out of a short barrel does well it doesn’t fragment like a 16in but gets much better penetration

77gr Sierra TMK from 20” Colt AR-15 A2 into calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin

Penetration: 9.5"
Retained weight: 26.4gr
Max expansion: 0.554"
Min expansion: 0.349"

Velocities in fps:
2,782
2,782
2,782
2,752
2,450
2,737
Average: 2,714
StdDev: 130.8
Min: 2,450
Max: 2,782
Spread: 332

9.5" of gel penetration from a rifle? Fuck that.

I'm probably the weird one here but I use M193 in my MK18. I know its an inch shorter than the OP's 11.5 but it works for my densely populated area. I sleep just fine knowing that there are 30rds of 55gr freedom seeds ready to go to work should the need arise. But then again what works for me might not work for you.

I use 55 gr Gold Dots from my 11.5”.

Chopping Block did a gel test where simple 55 gr Hornady SP out of an 11.5” was pretty impressive in what it did.

Fragmentation starts dropping at 2700 fps, and is gone by 2500 fps for M193.  You are already "iffy" on expansion at the muzzle.  50 yards out and there is no expansion.

Why not go with a better bullet?

I might one of these days if I come across a few boxes. I know there are way better rounds but for my little house where my neighbor is 8 feet away. I just can’t see a scenario where I’m shooting 50 yards in my area.

Maybe not, but for less than $40 you can have a couple of mags full of Gold Dots.

You don't need a full load out.

Ive got a few hundred Hornady 75gr OTM rounds that I loaded up for longer range shooting. Would those be ok out of my MK18?

Probably fragment more reliably out of a 10.5 than the 193, but not nearly as much of the guarantee that you would get from a quality soft point, like the GD or Fusions, expanding.

At the end of the day most anything would probably be fine, getting shot at close range with a .223 kinda sucks regardless of the details. Still, I’d just buy a few boxes of the good stuff. TMK, Fusion, GD, TSX, whatever. All will frag or expand much more consistently, and to much greater range, than 193 or Hornady 75’s.

I will say though, I’ve shot Hornady 75’s in gel and they fragged pretty well and would no doubt make a mess. They’re a widely used defensive loading, it’s just not what I would personally go with given how easy it is to procure better options in this day and age.

Here's Andrew from ARFCOM's YT channel shooting said 75 gr BTHP from a 10.5" AR into some gel. Looks like it would work just fine.

https://youtu.be/bv-zpVO8dJE

62/64gr Fusion or Gold Dot for my 10.5" and 12.5".

50gr TSX is known to be good out of short barrels. Pricey though.

I don't understand what people mean by "works for me" in this context. It seems as though what it means is "I've chosen this even though I know it isn't ideal." Because I'm pretty sure they don't literally mean they are out there slottin' bad guys and their choice "works" for them.

The main disadvantage for heavy OTM like 75gr BTHP in that test or 77gr SMK is it tends to produce a longer neck than soft points, solid copper hollow points, or 77gr TMK.

It works for me as in "I'm not losing any sleep knowing I have M193 loaded into my MK18". I have full confidence in that round at hallway distances, which is all I'll be shooting since I live in a densely populated area with my neighbor's house 6 feet away from mine. Plus I don't think the bad guy is going to analyze and critique my rounds prior to being shot with a rifle at 25 feet. I've never been shot but I'm fairly certain that if I were hit with a round of M193, I'd reevaluate my actions and take corrective measures, that's if I wasn't killed by the first shot.

Here's a thought I had while reading this, which I'm sure you already know, but is worth reiterating for anyone who comes by on the internet and reads this thread in future years, given how much bullshit "wisdom" is circulating out there.

The point of weapons selection is to use something that renders your attacker physically unable to continue harming you regardless of whether they decide they want to continue, not to hurt them enough that they decide to stop.

You hear this a lot from gun show fudds who say they use birdshot for home defense under the premise that a thousand little balls burried into their skin will make them reconsider their actions. Maybe it will, but also, maybe it won't. Causing enough physical pain that they call it quits isn't good enough, you have to successfully disrupt vital organs and/or their central nervous system sufficiently that your attacker is physically incapable of persisting regardless of whether they decide they want to persist. And birdshot does not penetrate deep enough into humans to hit organs.

If you ever shoot an attacker with birdshot and they stop attacking you, it's because they chose to stop persisting, not because you rendered them physically unable to persist.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that you don't already understand this, or that a decision to use M193 in combination with a short barrel is anywhere near comparable to using birdshot. But I do think there's something to be said for the fact that M193 is unlikely to consistently achieve fragmentation at the muzzle velocities of a 10.5" barrel, and that there are many other options available for around $0.50/rnd that are objectively overwhelmingly superior to M193 from your Mk18 in their wound performance and likelihood to disrupt the nervous system and vital organs.

Great post, and I agree wholeheartedly.

The video showing a suspect being shot multiple times in This thread has made me second guess using subsonic 300blk in my suppressed HD rifle. I had been loading the first 3-4 rounds with subs to protect my ears (and awareness), then the rest with supers. After seeing that video, the subs came out of the mag.

I always refer to this stellar (IMO) piece of work from member bryceerron for 10.5's... 11.x" would be a smidge better:

10.5" Ammo Spreadsheet

You know, we all like to talk about reducing noise during a conflict, myself included. I'd like to still be able to use my sense of hearing to perceive my surroundings and communicate with people after firing some rounds indoors without earpro.

But when some guy is a few feet from me with a knife, you know what? Screw my hearing, I want whatever will make him stop RIGHT NOW.

It's an interesting example of how we concern ourselves with certain things when deciding on a weapon while thinking about it in the internet, and our perception of what's important completely changes when it's actually happening.

Agreed. Terminal performance needs to take priority in an HD firearm, period end of story. Thankfully, the likelihood that one would ever have to employ the rifle in such a manner is microscopic, but if you're hedging that risk to begin with don't sell yourself short by introducing an inferior loading (subsonic 300s falling into said category).

One round that I haven't seen get much mention is 62gr TBBC/FBIT3. It's a devastating round.

It's on the chart - does look good. Haven't looked at cost/avaiability.

12/12.7" penetration seems pretty shallow for a soft point at those velocities.

This thread has been so informative. One thing I hadn't considered is whether or not it matters that this pistol will be suppressed.

ETA: nope, I mentioned that quite a bit

Could be a product of a different type of gel being used. I'm not sure what the impact velocity for the gel shot is, but I suspect also that when the velocity becomes really low, the penetration may actually start decreasing just because of the lack of raw momentum.

Docgkr got a 3 shot average of 16.5 inches penetration out of FBIT3 from a 16" barrel, along with a figure of 17.1" from the similar RA556B loading. It's one of the last bullets I would worry over concerning penetration.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/self_defense_ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/223%20TBBC.htm

I'm not exactly sure at what range/velocity he took the penetration from - you'd have to find his original thread. It may have been at the minimum velocity he got expansion at.

Yes, that's what I was getting at, above. I think it was taken at the very limit of expansion - but again, I'd have to find his original thread.

Here's Andrew on the ARFCOM YT channel shooting the FBIT3 out of a 10.5" barrel. Looks pretty good to me.

https://youtu.be/Z3OjZpjTvLQ

Agree on a good soft point, not sure what the threshold is on GDs but the Hornady SPs you mentioned expand reliably to pretty low velocities.

As far as a load cheap/stack deep all purpose projectile, it puts m193 to shame and can be loaded cheaper than m193 can be purchased. I see no reason to buy FMJs to load up when the SPs do a substantially better job for the same price.

Who uses a 20" AR as a CQB defense rifle? Question was 11.5" barrel. Any 16" to 10.5" AR will be great with the 77 TMK.

2785 fps is hauling SUPER ASS fast for the 77 TMK! Most 16-18" barrels run 5.56 Black Hills 77 TMK in the 2680-2720 fps range. In a .223 match chamber with a throat so short SMKs are jammed i to the lands at mag length, the Black Hills 5.56 77 TMK does 2715 fps from a 16" barrel. Max pressure hand loads are 2690-2705 fps in same barrel.

Fuck that ammo in general! Over 130 fps SD? WTF?

Great thread....

My Dept currently issues the .223 55gr Fed Tactical Bonded for use in guns ranging from 10.5 up to 20”

We are considering a change and adding the 62gr Fed Tac Bonded (which I believe is the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw at .223 pressure instead of the FBI load which is contract only at .556 pressure)

It seems the 62gr might be a tad better than 55gr in this round from SBRs

I’m currently carrying a 11.5 BCM and I’d say realistically any shooting would be 0-100 yards

Am I correct about the 62gr Fed Tac....?

62gr Federal Tactical uses the T3 bullet aka TBBC/FBIT3, but loaded to .223 pressure. It's an absolutely devastating bullet.

I'm a Mk262 fan due to it's versatility and relatively modest price...but for absolute, bottom-line CQB terminal performance, I don't think you can do better than T3.

Has there been any other testing on this bullet (55 gr Hornady SP), comparing it to the other major ones in this thread? It seems like it would be just as good. Any reason not to use it?

This has been a great discussion. It has sold me on the Black Hills 77 TMK for my 11.5". I will also load it up in my 16". Both are 1:7 barrels. I was going to split a case with a friend of mine until I remembered he has a M&P 15 with a 1:9 barrel. Has anybody tried the 77 TMK in a 1:9? If it's a not go, what can we recommend to him?

Good choice. TMK represents an ideal blend of effectiveness against unprotected targets and good external ballistics while also likely still retaining adequate performance through light barriers.

The usual advice given regarding 1:9 twists is that it depends on the particular barrel. Considering the TMK is very long for a 77 gr bullet, I'd guess it wouldn't fully stabilize. For home defense purposes that may be fine, for any kind of distance shooting I'd recommend Hornady TAP T2.

I’d want to try it in a 1:9. Some barrels will shoot it fine, some will keyhole. The 69TMK is probably a lot better suited, but I’m unsure if its added velocity would leave it penetrating a bit shallow. I only ever shoot the 77gr stuff. I doubt it’s a very dramatic difference, but it’s something to consider.

Excellent choice on the TMKs. I am not a fanboy, I think there are a lot of great options out there today, but I’ve been very impressed with the round and it’s what’s loaded in my bedside rifle.

Thanks for the quick replies. I think the plan has changed to ordering a couple of boxes and seeing how they shoot. If it's a no go for the 1:9 he'll have to figure something else out.

Hornady 55 grain SP under penetrates on bare gel. It is quite poor on barriers too. 64 grain power points are better in every way but price and accuracy.

The price angle cant be overlooked. I have several thousand bullets of Hornady 55 SP due to the low price and high accuracy.

That's an interesting test. I can see how birdshot would achieve better penetration if the shot all stays together on impact with the target. But I still think that should be regarded as a possible occasional effect, rather than an expectation. If a study were conducted, I strongly doubt that the effect would be consistently and reliably achieved. And thus, I still don't think birdshot can be expected to reliably disrupt vital organs or the central nervous system.

Point being, birdshot *can* destroy someone at close range in the same way that a spear or battle axe *can* destroy someone at close range. There are plenty of things that *can* work even though they're rendered obsolete by other options that are superior in every relevant metric.

AZgunner is absolutely correct in his last statement.

Listen fellas, I respect everyone's opinions on ammo choice especially because it's your money so do with it what you think is appropriate.

However, most of you guys are WAAAAAYYY overthinking this stuff.

The OP specifically mentioned "home-defense", which in my mind means distances of not more than 50 meters at most!!

Let's be realistic.  If someone were to get shot with ANY .223 or 5.56 rifle round at anything less than 50 meters, especially if they were to get hit in the upper torso, that person/bad guy is going to have a very, very, very bad day no matter what bullet they get hit with.  I am not speaking from a theoretical standpoint.  I have twelve years of military service and 20 years of police work under my belt.

Yes, pick a well-developed round such as any Gold Dot, Fusion, or any Mk262 type round.  They would be fantastic choices,  BUT shot placement is far more important than ammo choice.

Getting hit in the upper torso with any 5.56 round at close distance is going to be really, really bad news.

Furthermore, any mention of what an ammo type will do at 500 yds within a home/self-defense discussion is an absolutely mute point, as no one is ever going to shoot at another human being at 500 yds away in a home/self-defense scenario.  Seriously, what would that even look like?

Let's be serious about how many rounds you realistically need for home/self-defense.  Yes, buy as much as you want while you can get it, but how much do you really need??  Hell, I have about 11,000 rounds of .223/5.56 in my basement, but I probably have less than 200 "self-defense" rounds such as Gold Dot and MagTech Mk262 clone.  Again, just because I tend to think realistically.

How bad would things have to get to where I would need more than six or seven 30 round magazines of "HD" ammo?  What would that look like?  Zombie Apocalypse?  Meteor strike?  Coronavirus pandemic?

Lastly, if you or I are engaged in a real-life scenario (being fired upon) to the point we NEED six or seven+ magazines of "HD" ammo; you are not likely to survive that kind of onslaught.  Again, please tell me what that would even look like.  I'm all ears.

Not trying to provoke anyone, I am just trying to have a healthy, realistic discussion about ammo choices.