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Posted: 8/6/2017 2:33:39 PM EDT
[#1]
XM193, cause decent and plentiful.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 3:43:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious why people so concerned with bullet performance stick with 5.56 for "oh shit" when you have 6.5G or 6.8 which are so much better 
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Posted: 8/6/2017 4:12:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so much better at being heavier and harder to find. sure theyre good rounds but their only main advantage i can think of besides ballistics is that they still fit into an ar15 over an ar10. I mean if the point is "855/193 are only used because you are a poor moron" why the fuck are you using 5.56 at all? |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 5:18:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Probably 50 gr TSX. It's accurate, goes off like a bomb, more barrier blind than the heavy OTMs, though not as much as bonded soft points, it has a flat trajectory, and it even zaps steel armor up close.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 7:35:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
for those who think that yaw dependant rounds just ice pick when they don't fragment: M855 and Mk262 @ 350m I have no dog in the fight, just trying to learn. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 7:56:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably 50 gr TSX. It's accurate, goes off like a bomb, more barrier blind than the heavy OTMs, though not as much as bonded soft points, it has a flat trajectory, and it even zaps steel armor up close. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 8:12:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am missing the point. Is the video proving M855 and Mk262 are equally effective out to 350m? I have no dog in the fight, just trying to learn. No matter what you are going to get a yaw as the heavier rear is always going to shift to the front in the change of medium density. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 8:13:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agree with this, but at $1.50/round its hard to amass a SHTF quantity. I bought a box of 50 and shot half of it and they are about 1.5 MOA out of both my 5.56 rifles. That's as good as I have experienced with off the shelf ammo that is not advertised as "match" ammo. I'd like to buy more, but sheesh they are spendy. just sayin. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 8:38:18 PM EDT
[#9]
XM193.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 8:44:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The point is to remove the false narrative that FMJ rounds "icepick" No matter what you are going to get a yaw as the heavier rear is always going to shift to the front in the change of medium density. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am missing the point. Is the video proving M855 and Mk262 are equally effective out to 350m? I have no dog in the fight, just trying to learn. No matter what you are going to get a yaw as the heavier rear is always going to shift to the front in the change of medium density. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:17:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Now now boys. Back here in reality, we just stock m193 or m855. Why? Because at actual engagement distances, they work. Those of us that don't make seven figures can also afford to actually buy the stuff as well.
In all seriousness, m193. The stuff just works. If you actually hit the target. The real question here should be, how do I afford more ammo so I can practice to be better than my rifle? Or where can I find a 500+ range? Who can teach me urban combat? Once you get past realistic engagement distances, none of the 5.56 tends to be that effective. Up close, they all work quite well. I sleep soundly at night with m193 in my magazines. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:28:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agree with this, but at $1.50/round its hard to amass a SHTF quantity. I bought a box of 50 and shot half of it and they are about 1.5 MOA out of both my 5.56 rifles. That's as good as I have experienced with off the shelf ammo that is not advertised as "match" ammo. I'd like to buy more, but sheesh they are spendy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Probably 50 gr TSX. It's accurate, goes off like a bomb, more barrier blind than the heavy OTMs, though not as much as bonded soft points, it has a flat trajectory, and it even zaps steel armor up close.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 10:56:05 PM EDT
[#13]
M193. I'm of the opinion that as far as AR rounds go, your bullet selection doesn't matter. Either everything works fine on an unarmored target at reasonable range, or nothing works on a heavily armored target (except shot placement if there's vulnerable points) or something out of effective range. Quantity over quality, especially in SHTF scenario.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:15:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Wolf gold 55gr, so far I haven't had an issue with it at all.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:56:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wolf gold 55gr, so far I haven't had an issue with it at all. I've probably shot 4k rounds of wolf gold and haven't had anything but 1 stovepipe. No popped primers, ftex/ftej, brass over bolt, every one went off on the first strike... I think the stovepipe was my rifle. I use good mags, so no feeding problems I can remember. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 12:34:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably 50 gr TSX. It's accurate, goes off like a bomb, more barrier blind than the heavy OTMs, though not as much as bonded soft points, it has a flat trajectory, and it even zaps steel armor up close. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 12:46:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wolf gold seems to be "close enough", that I consider it m193. The stuff works great in my rifles, and is cheap to boot. I'll buy it any day, the taiwanese know how to make some military ammo. Their m855 (I shot some '10 stuff in the usmc), was amazing. Super accurate (as far as m855 goes), clean, well packed, and HOT. I've probably shot 4k rounds of wolf gold and haven't had anything but 1 stovepipe. No popped primers, ftex/ftej, brass over bolt, every one went off on the first strike... I think the stovepipe was my rifle. I use good mags, so no feeding problems I can remember. Let me search..... Oh wait, Our own blue falcon did a test (thank you sir)..... Looks like a little bit of fragmentation. Not sure how exactly it compares to regular spec M193 from that barrel length, that gel.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CYq3t0rC_I |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 3:55:50 PM EDT
[#18]
dbl tap
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Posted: 8/7/2017 3:58:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M193. I'm of the opinion that as far as AR rounds go, your bullet selection doesn't matter. Either everything works fine on an unarmored target at reasonable range, or nothing works on a heavily armored target (except shot placement if there's vulnerable points) or something out of effective range. Quantity over quality, especially in SHTF scenario. Hint: Both mk318 and M855A1 dont require the bullet to yaw in order to fragment. Yet people still want to use yaw dependent ammo as defensive ammo. 
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Posted: 8/7/2017 4:10:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well your opinion is wrong. Everyone including the general purpose forces in the army and USMC are using something other than M193 and M855. Thats called a clue. Hint: Both mk318 and M855A1 dont require the bullet to yaw in order to fragment. Yet people still want to use yaw dependent ammo as defensive ammo. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 4:26:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what you're saying is if someone shoots a bad guy in the chest at 100 yards with M193 or M855 he won't die? If both types of ammo will kill at 100 yards then what's the point? Ill recode and resend since you arent getting it. Both the Army and USMC have found FMJs wanting. In close combat how fast a bad guy ceases hostile activities matter. FMJs dont do that reliably and well. Civilians and LE have even more options. It is literally insanity to chose mediocre ammo when so many options exists. Theres a reason why you dont see DocGKR and Molon anymore. Its because people WANT to remain willfully ignorant in the face of indisputable data. All you are doing is perpetuating it. With IGNORANT statements like you just made. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 4:28:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well your opinion is wrong. Everyone including the general purpose forces in the army and USMC are using something other than M193 and M855. Thats called a clue. Hint: Both mk318 and M855A1 dont require the bullet to yaw in order to fragment. Yet people still want to use yaw dependent ammo as defensive ammo. opinion [uh-pin-yuh n] Synonyms Examples Word Origin See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal. 3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion. 4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case. 5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion. 6. a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him. So people that like M193 and M855 are the reason DocGKR and Molon are the very reason they don't post here that often? Huh, interesting. As far as I can tell, most people pro either of those two rounds aren't debating that they are AS GOOD as any of the better performing rounds. I'm not sure why you go there. There has been a lot of (including myself) people saying they might load the more expensive stuff for HD but rely on the cheaper, more affordable rounds, for a large quantity stash. If money was no object, then yes, I'm pretty sure any of the PRO M193 / M855 people would be stacking the better stuff high and deep. I'd have all kinds of cool ammo if money weren't any object and availability was plentiful. And just because Sylvan talked about the benefits or upsides of M855, doesn't mean he's saying there aren't better rounds. It's just that he found them "good enough" for him. Why does that have to be such a problem? And why wouldn't you give credence to somebody's "opinion" that actually used it against things. Whatever those things are.... Because it's not scientific? OK, that's your right. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 4:35:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lets just review what the word "opinion" means. For clarity sake. I didn't see him saying his "opinion" is fact and should be considered scientific. Which is what this whole thread is about. OP asked us what we'd carry. opinion [uh-pin-yuh n] Synonyms Examples Word Origin See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal. 3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion. 4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case. 5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion. 6. a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him. So people that like M193 and M855 are the reason DocGKR and Molon are the very reason they don't post here that often? Huh, interesting. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 4:39:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Who said I was listening? AFAIK, I was the only one posting the approved arfcom list of self defense ammo.
Why do people get so upset about all this stuff? One more piece of logic. Once the military started using something other than M193 and M855, did that somehow cancel out all of the KIA's that have fallen to those two rounds in the past? Improvements are always a good thing. But that doesn't somehow render the old standard completely useless. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 4:58:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If thats the conclusion you drew from my post you probably need some reading comprehension skills. Ill recode and resend since you arent getting it. Both the Army and USMC have found FMJs wanting. In close combat how fast a bad guy ceases hostile activities matter. FMJs dont do that reliably and well. Civilians and LE have even more options. It is literally insanity to chose mediocre ammo when so many options exists. Theres a reason why you dont see DocGKR and Molon anymore. Its because people WANT to remain willfully ignorant in the face of indisputable data. All you are doing is perpetuating it. With IGNORANT statements like you just made. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what you're saying is if someone shoots a bad guy in the chest at 100 yards with M193 or M855 he won't die? If both types of ammo will kill at 100 yards then what's the point? Ill recode and resend since you arent getting it. Both the Army and USMC have found FMJs wanting. In close combat how fast a bad guy ceases hostile activities matter. FMJs dont do that reliably and well. Civilians and LE have even more options. It is literally insanity to chose mediocre ammo when so many options exists. Theres a reason why you dont see DocGKR and Molon anymore. Its because people WANT to remain willfully ignorant in the face of indisputable data. All you are doing is perpetuating it. With IGNORANT statements like you just made. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 5:07:58 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 8/7/2017 5:08:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Instead of trying to call me ignorant and saying I don't have reading comprehension skills, why don't you just answer my question. WILL m193 and M855 shot through someones chest cavity KILL them? Yes or No. Start by reading this: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf This thread again illustrates the problem where people who refuse to be informed drive out the few experts or informed users who try to fight bad information with evidence. Thats why DocGKR and Molon left. For those trying to fight the good fight, dont bother. This place has become an echo chamber of confirmation bias. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:07:55 PM EDT
[#28]
IMI M-193
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:53:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Factory ammo: 64gr Gold Dot: somewhat affordable and effective.
Handloaded: 62 Federal Fusion loaded to 5.56 pressure: for 475yd expansion range. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:55:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The fact that you are trying to break down the science of terminal ballistics into a simple yes or no answer shows how IGNORANT you are about the subject in general. Start by reading this: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf This thread again illustrates the problem where people who refuse to be informed drive out the few experts or informed users who try to fight bad information with evidence. Thats why DocGKR and Molon left. For those trying to fight the good fight, dont bother. This place has become an echo chamber of confirmation bias. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Instead of trying to call me ignorant and saying I don't have reading comprehension skills, why don't you just answer my question. WILL m193 and M855 shot through someones chest cavity KILL them? Yes or No. Start by reading this: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf This thread again illustrates the problem where people who refuse to be informed drive out the few experts or informed users who try to fight bad information with evidence. Thats why DocGKR and Molon left. For those trying to fight the good fight, dont bother. This place has become an echo chamber of confirmation bias. 
And you still did not answer the question. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:03:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nope but read enough from people that have. and isnt that why LE moved to soft point? and the military moved to 855A1? what's the deal with you fmj guys? are you just to poor or uninformed to afford decent SD ammo and have to belittle anyone that doesnt share your justification? isnt the point of stopping a thread, to stop it as fast as possible? sure any bullet will kill you, given time without medical but why screw around when they could take a hit and return fire and hit you, then you are fucked. get a bullet that works BETTER. concept. i guess ignorance is bliss. my job is done here. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:05:39 PM EDT
[#32]
placed an order for 1k rds of magtech 77gr otm and 500rds of speer 64gr gold dots today.
bought 500rds of IMI 77gr otm last week but im 99% sure they sent me factory seconds or whatever they could find out of the disposal bin because a lot of it was thrashed pretty hard
im gonna need more magazines now. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:14:50 PM EDT
[#33]
70gr TSX and M855
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:19:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M-193 for me because I have a M-16A1 with a 1:12 twist, I am familiar with the round and rifle from service, used it in hostile encounters and know exactly what it is going to do. And I can stock up 2:1 quantity over the boutique bullets. That is a big reasoning of my choice. I do not own another AR. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:33:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agree with this, but at $1.50/round its hard to amass a SHTF quantity. I bought a box of 50 and shot half of it and they are about 1.5 MOA out of both my 5.56 rifles. That's as good as I have experienced with off the shelf ammo that is not advertised as "match" ammo. I'd like to buy more, but sheesh they are spendy. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:43:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's amazing that you are apparently not capable of having a discussion with someone with a different opinion without trying to insult them by calling them "ignorant".
And you still did not answer the question. Here it is again if you didnt see it: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:58:40 PM EDT
[#37]
My first choice from what I stock deep is the 64gr Gold Dots. After that ran out I'd probably go straight into the M193 (Lake City, MEN, CBC) even though I have a quite a bit (thousands) of 77gr Razor Core, M855 various, Ranger soft points and 75gr TAP.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:16:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M193 is all I use. To be fair, if it's happening, pretty much any flavor of 5.56 or .223 is going to kill a person at average gunfight distances. I honestly believe that we over think the issue of the best ammo. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 12:45:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what you're saying is if someone shoots a bad guy in the chest at 100 yards with M193 or M855 he won't die? If both types of ammo will kill at 100 yards then what's the point? |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 6:23:53 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what you're saying is if someone shoots a bad guy in the chest at 100 yards with M193 or M855 he won't die? If both types of ammo will kill at 100 yards then what's the point? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well your opinion is wrong. Everyone including the general purpose forces in the army and USMC are using something other than M193 and M855. Thats called a clue. Hint: Both mk318 and M855A1 dont require the bullet to yaw in order to fragment. Yet people still want to use yaw dependent ammo as defensive ammo. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 6:39:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
as opposed to the list of boutique rounds being discussed in this thread? I mean if the point is "855/193 are only used because you are a poor moron" why the fuck are you using 5.56 at all? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so much better at being heavier and harder to find. sure theyre good rounds but their only main advantage i can think of besides ballistics is that they still fit into an ar15 over an ar10. I mean if the point is "855/193 are only used because you are a poor moron" why the fuck are you using 5.56 at all? In all reality, if things get to a point where I ever wind up NEEDING to use 1/5th or even 1/10th of my modest stockpile, shit has REALLY gone South and it's going to be really, really bad. Honestly, needing to shoot a full mag of 5.56 for defensive reasons = things are bad. A civilian shooting through a 210 round loadout for defensive reasons = shit's gone seriously South. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 12:52:17 PM EDT
[#42]
That is a good point. I probably need a few more rounds of the good stuff over what I have...... I'm getting low. And even after all this time I've still never bought MK262. I might have to try a box. But then again I like the idea of the gold dots or the federal fusion rounds. Right now my go to AR is a 1/9.
 Although thus far it's fine with 77 grainers out to 25 meters. Need to test further.
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Posted: 8/8/2017 1:27:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the standard mentality is that if you run low on the 'boutique rounds', as you put it, you have a significantly better chance of coming across .223 or 5.56 due to the commonality/proliferation, and can use any of it in the same firearm, vs. the likelihood of finding 6.8 or 6.5. In all reality, if things get to a point where I ever wind up NEEDING to use 1/5th or even 1/10th of my modest stockpile, shit has REALLY gone South and it's going to be really, really bad. Honestly, needing to shoot a full mag of 5.56 for defensive reasons = things are bad. A civilian shooting through a 210 round loadout for defensive reasons = shit's gone seriously South. Considering cost of ammo, a separate upper would be a cheaper, more effective way to transition should you "run out" of your 6.5/6.8 |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 11:59:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering cost of ammo, a separate upper would be a cheaper, more effective way to transition should you "run out" of your 6.5/6.8 In a bug in situation, absolutely. |
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Posted: 8/13/2017 10:40:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My entire ammo pile comes into play. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 2:49:58 AM EDT
[#46]
My go to is .223 75 grain TAP then .223 64 grain Gold Dot then its M193/Wolf Gold.
150 (10x15 round mags for 10 loaded Glock 19 and 5 loaded VP9) rounds of 124 grain HST, then 500 rounds of 147 grain Hornady TAP in then 1000 rounds of 124 grain Gold Dot then 2000 9mm is 115 grain Federal +P+ JHP. After that its 147/124/115 grain FMJ. I probably have more flavors of 9mm ammo. If I run out of my 75 grain TAP and Gold Dot then I am going to want a lot of M193. I do have 3000 linked M855/M856 incase I find a M249 but that is last resort because well de linking is painful. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 8:15:22 AM EDT
[#47]
That's way too much for me. I just have my 9bple carry ammo, usually only keep about 200 rounds plus pistol mags loaded with it. All else is nato ball.
For what I'd do with it, various flavors of whatever m193 is on sale does ok for me. I also have some m855 that I got at a hefty discount, but not that much of it, definitely not my go to. Probably less than 1k rounds. I like to make my own go-to cans. 420rds 5.56, 200rds 9mm, 50 shells 00 buck, 50rds 45acp. All ball ammo. Don't have the budget to stock those with gold dots or whatever. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 9:26:39 PM EDT
[#48]
MK31& in my rifle and vest.
M855A1 in the safe if the S really HTF Also have preloaded mags of M118 and M61 for my 308 AR |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 9:40:54 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 8/15/2017 10:02:37 PM EDT
[#50]
556 TAP T2
Ironic considering my screen name.
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