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Posted: 9/7/2010 8:25:39 PM EDT
This might be a redundant question, but internet over here in Afghanistan is pretty shitty... So forgive me for not searching.. It already took about 10 minutes just to get to this point.. I hope this even posts up there!!

Anyway, I'm a 45B (which is now 91F) Small Arm Repair guy for the Army.. So I came across a M249 SAW can of black tip 5.56. It was labeled, I believe, "M993 AP" I'll have to check the can again to see if I got the number right..

But I was wondering what this stuff does? I know normal "ball" ammo, M855 already has a steel penetrator in it.. So what does M993 do differently? I delinked that 200rd can and have it ready to put in some of my P-Mags, but I wanted to know what this stuff does before I load it onto my kit... Any info???

Thanks!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 8:33:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:02:05 PM EDT
I believe that instead of the steel penetrator core you get with M855, the ammo you found with the black tips has a tungsten core.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:13:59 PM EDT
Sweet! Thanks guys.. I think I know where another can of this stuff is... It's all marked LC07 too.. Think I might have to load up as many mags as I can.

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:20:18 PM EDT
I'm pretty sure it is intended to be used in belts with an M249 SAW against vehicles.

Loading up your mags for patrols in Afghanistan..., well you'll be making neat 22 caliber holes in Talibanis rather than achieving fragmentation. Better be right on with central nervous system shot placement.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:34:12 PM EDT
You're lucky, I would've killed for that stuff when In was a SAW gunner over there. Make sure it gets out that those that can use it and doesn't waste away in someone's stockpile.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:53:26 PM EDT
Made of tungsten will not expand/fragment. Not good for tissue. Superior for armor/barriers.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:58:53 PM EDT
Keep 2 mags with it for doing vehicle work but also keep your m855 for fleshy substances.

I begged borrow and stole for it and that was my loadout.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:00:31 PM EDT
UUUUMMM you must be young and new to the Army! and also un-educated as you wouldn't be loading out that only into your mags. Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's. But for future reference why are you not asking the E-5 threw E-7 that's in charge of the Ammo point....... wait you would probably get you dick thrown into the meat grinder if they found out why you were asking. Do the guys a favor and give it to the guys going out side the wirer and not your once in a week leaving the wirer FOBIT use.

But so you know in the future.
Black tips= Armor Piercing
Red/Orange Tips= Tracer
Green Tips= Penetration Rounds
Silver Tips= Incidirary Rounds
No Markings= Ball/ Target Rounds
Blue Tip/Bullets= Target or Practice rounds
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 1:15:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 1:20:53 AM EDT by MauserMatt]
Well Commo, since you must ask, I DID happen to ask the ammo point guy. He didn't know shit. He said it was AP. Well that's what the SAW box said. How much help was that? None? The guy also was telling me last week about this super awesome 50 cal ammo. He was calling it APIT and perfectly describing SLAP.. Without beig disrespectful I asked "doesn't APIT mean Armor Peircing Incendiary Tracer"? He said yes and then told me about the sabot and tungsten steel core of this APIT... Yeah, I'll ask this guy about the black tip 5.56..

Oh, he was an E7.

And if linked ammo is "hotter" then why is it still called M855 on the box of the SAW? Or are you saying this M993 is hotter? Where is YOUR source?

As far as hoarding it for myself? No. I have one mag full. Might load up another. I distributed what was left of that can to the other 3 guys in my section. Including my E7 section sergeant. The ammo point has PLENTY of black tip. I checked.

Thanks for your unhelpfulness.... Maybe get the facts next time before you jump? Attention to detail sarge......

And thanks to everyone ELSE that actually contributed something helpful!
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:15:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:23:49 AM EDT by CommoGunSlinger]
As for jumping your shit...... you really didn't give to much detail on the whole situation. As for the E-7 not knowing...... WOW I knew that shit after 2 years in the INF. As for the rounds being hotter, you find that out when you you are shooting groups also when doing sniper shooting. Also the specs for it are diffrent... not by much but over a year of shooting that shit you will wear out more than a few parts in the M-4.

Instead of having one loaded with it, load it up with a 1-3-1-4 mix, First round out of the mag green tip, 3 Black tips, 1 tracer, rest of the mag a 1-4 mix tracer green tips. This will allow you to fire a warning shot and then wreak any vehical. Just from my experiance this is usally did the number for what I needed in Iraq.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:27:28 AM EDT
My, we're all pretty testy today...

As a retired Air Force Master Sergeant (E7), I can point out that some people are E7s and some are Senior NCOs. By being more interested in knowing my job and how I interfaced with others, I got a lot done. But I didn't get promoted. Funny thing about that-the people on the promotion board were all AF E9s that had done the "play the game" stuff and didn't necessarily know their own jobs...

Anyway, in my experience, the Army moves people around despite their lack of training in specific portions of a job-and sometimes despite their lack of ANY training in their new job. Kind of stupid in my opinion, but the Army doesn't care.

Best source for information if you can't get a straight answer from the first NCO you ask is to check the manuals.

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 4:17:45 AM EDT
Probably off topic:


That SLAP stuff is pretty awesome. Wish I could get me some tungsten penetrators, just for fun. Best of luck, don't waste tungsten on flesh and bone.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 4:40:43 AM EDT
You don't know what you have, and don't know how rare it is. Been collecting and cutting (section) ammo for 10 years and have been looking for the M995 for 6 of that. The closest that I found is the M993 7.62x51mm in the same configuration. Heres a pic of it:http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/wolfganggross/th_m99312gaflechette005.jpghttp://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/wolfganggross/th_m99312gaflechette003.jpghttp://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/wolfganggross/th_m99312gaflechette002.jpg These could not be cut like normal AP. Tried wet grinding, sanding, cutting with hacksaw, diamond wet saw, metal files......the tungsten core can not be cut!
This is used by the M60, M240 machine gun and the M24 sniper. Intended for use against current and future light armored targets. The projectile consists of a tungsten core penetrator contained in a aluminum cup and jacketed by Tomac (gliding metal). The M993 is capable of penetrating a 7mm thick high hardness armor plate at a distance of 500 meters from muzzle of the weapon. This corresponds to 1/4" armor plate at a distance of 550m. All the M993 that I have, had FFV/91 headstamps, from Karlsborg , Sweden. This would correspond with the 1994 cime bill and the laws of importation of new and current AP ammo. Thats why you don't see M995 that much in this country.
These were developed after SLAPS because of catastophic muzzle failures when sabots were prematurely seperating in the barrel. They started to replace the M855/m61 back in 1992 during the soldier enhancement program with tests in 96 or 97.
I've been waiting long time just to here that they are actually using this stuff over there. The goverment spent a lot of money developing these with the M993 costing $2.61 ea. in 2005. Everything has been so hush hush, even got kicked off here once for even mentioning M995. Be careful and wear your tin foil hat when talking about this
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:54:37 AM EDT
MauserMatt –– Read this: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf.

You might also want to peruse all the sticky threads here: http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:12:54 PM EDT
Commo man, I have to inject my thoughts on some of your comments here. M855 ammo is the same regardless of whether it goes into links, boxes, or stripper clips. All is made on the production line with the same powder, bullet, and primer. Hate to shoot you down there but facts are facts. Not all E7's are knowledgeable in their chosen professions.. I retired as 1 and by no means did I feel I was a "expert" but I tried to stay current in my field regardless. Mauser Matt, if you are able to read this anytime soon, hope things are going well for you and your friends there in AFG. We spoke via IM during your mob-up and all, you are in good company I would think. When you get a chance, shoot me a message and let me know how things are going on. Lastly, the 5.56mm AP is best suited for vehicles, barriers, windows, etc. If you want some good knockdown stuff, find you some MK 262 Mod 1 ammo and load your mags with that. Awesome ammo to say the least.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 7:26:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MauserMatt:
Well Commo, since you must ask, I DID happen to ask the ammo point guy. He didn't know shit. He said it was AP. Well that's what the SAW box said. How much help was that? None? The guy also was telling me last week about this super awesome 50 cal ammo. He was calling it APIT and perfectly describing SLAP.. Without beig disrespectful I asked "doesn't APIT mean Armor Peircing Incendiary Tracer"? He said yes and then told me about the sabot and tungsten steel core of this APIT... Yeah, I'll ask this guy about the black tip 5.56..

Oh, he was an E7.

And if linked ammo is "hotter" then why is it still called M855 on the box of the SAW? Or are you saying this M993 is hotter? Where is YOUR source?

As far as hoarding it for myself? No. I have one mag full. Might load up another. I distributed what was left of that can to the other 3 guys in my section. Including my E7 section sergeant. The ammo point has PLENTY of black tip. I checked.

Thanks for your unhelpfulness.... Maybe get the facts next time before you jump? Attention to detail sarge......

And thanks to everyone ELSE that actually contributed something helpful!


I thought >50 APIT did have a tungsten core after the smal explosive charge.

But M995 is basically M885, but with a tungsten insert. It wont fragment, but it will do whats its meant to, go through armor.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 9:35:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:
Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's.


Basically call the guy in A-stan stupid and then type that? News-flash, putting links on a round does not increase the pressure of said round.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 4:41:38 AM EDT
Thanks for all the help guys! I did mix it up a little in my mags using M855 and M856 as well as the M995.. My chain of command has no problem with it. My E7 section sgt is doing it as well. He knows I'm a gun nut.

I really wasn't trying to make it look like I know more about everything than anyone.. That's why I came on here to ask what I have. I've learned you have to take everything you hear in the Army with a grain of salt... I've heard the green tip M855 rounds referred to as "enviromentally friendly" rounds and as just regular ball. It's amazing what some people will put out there without knowing.. Some of this shit gets ridiculous. But I do appreciate the help some of you guys have been. Now I know!

Thanks very much wolfgang for the info as well! It's interesting to see what's inside these things.. And I did check the can these came out of. You're right it is M995. LC07. We have a bunch of it really.. Too bad I can't take some back home lol!!! I didn't know it was THAT rare...

Doc, the pdf file didn't open.. But I do like all the info in that M4carbine site.. I'll have to look through there when I can!

T18B40, Things are good here so far! I can't complain at the moment. I have an NSN for the Mk262 ammo... I was going to talk to that E7 I mentioned earlier about seeing if he can order some of it. I've read a little about it and I like what I hear. He's a nice guy and I don't mind working around him. But when he gets going about something that's obviously wrong I know I can't go to him for reliable info. It's already been more than once other than that SLAP ammo he was talking about. But hopefully he might be able to get a hold of that Mk262...
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:46:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:
Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's.


Really?!

Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:
...you find that out when you you are shooting groups also when doing sniper shooting.


Wait a minute, these fishs smells fishy.



Link Posted: 9/9/2010 9:25:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:

Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's.


Documentation from a verifiable source?
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 10:20:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:53:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By NickySantoro:
Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:

Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's.


Documentation from a verifiable source?


There isn't one, because it's nonsense.


He is just repeating some shit he heard in the Army. It is just like the "The 5.56 bullet rises when it leaves the barrel, that is why the round hits the same point at 25 and 300 meters" that LOTS of motherfuckers got taught in basic.

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 1:21:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 14point5:
Loading up your mags for patrols in Afghanistan..., well you'll be making neat 22 caliber holes in Talibanis rather than achieving fragmentation. Better be right on with central nervous system shot placement.


I saw a car full of people shot with it in Iraq, 3 of the 4 died. Contrary to what you read on the internet, 22 caliber holes in the body tend to suck real bad.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:58:45 AM EDT
OK guys check it out,

The M993 AP has a tungsten core, and is truly an armor piercing round. Compared to standard ball ammo, it is a hotter load(but that has nothing to do with being MG ammo or not), but it is perfecly fine in any 5.56 military weapons. Most AP loads are usually hotter than ball loads.

As for performance, as I have stated many times previously on this site, in my experience people have this nasty habit of getting behind things when you shoot at them. In asscrackistan, most of what they have to get behind will stop standard ball. Will it stop AP? I never had any 5.56 AP at my disposal to find out, but it sure can't hurt.

Now, here's something to consider here: 855 ball, mk 262, and AP all have different trajectories. Translation: when you go to the range and zero your rifle with 855(like everybody does, because that's what we have) your point of impact will be different with those other rounds. Same goes if you have the "red tip" tracers. Red tips are intended for the M193 55gr FMJ ammo, whereas the orange tips are the M856, intended for the green tip M855.

What I would do if I had some AP, I would load it into a mag, not mixed with anything(unless I could find compatable tracers but honestly I don't remember whether red or orange are). Then with some extras, I would figure out the difference in POI compared to M855, since that's what you have most of.

Honestly, if your job doesn't have you out patroling or otherwise looking for trouble, that ammo would be better in the hands of someone who does. And I'm not talking about convoys or any of that bs. I'm refering to the guys who's whole job is basically looking for trouble, like Infantry. In all seriousness, if you don't have an MOS like that the same ammo you got issued when you got in country, will still be in your mags until you turn it in at the end of your deployment. Not talking shit, just stating the facts.

I am an NCO, but unfortunately, you would be surprised how many NCOs don't know the different types of ammo that well.

For those of you who don't know me, I am an Infantryman. I'm currently enroute home from #4(asscrackistan for the 2nd time the other 2 in Iraq). So you might say I've been around.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 1:48:22 AM EDT
Thanks Mace for the info. I appreciate it.

As far as getting this AP I have to a combat MOS.. Well I'm not in a conventional unit.. The "go out and kill people" guys get EVERYTHING they need. I don't try to pass myself off as something I'm not. I have no tab, but I'm supporting the guys that do. They get what they need. And if it's weapon related, I try to hook these guys up as best I can. That's my job. Part of that is going to them and being with them for certain amounts of time. I won't go too far into it obviously... But I could use the ammo. Based on your thoughts of trajectory, maybe a full mag of the black tip isn't a bad idea...

In my role, I go to the range anytime I need to. Test firing can be a bitch! So I'll do a little testing of this AP vs 855 POI. It'll make a good excuse to draw a little more of it to see what it does. Like I said, the ammo point has plenty.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 3:14:19 AM EDT
Some more info on the M995, it is made for the M16a2, M4 and the M249 saw. The M995 .223 penetrates 12mm armor plate of 300HB at 100 meters. There has been 5 different examples from France, Dutch, Belguim FN, Swedish, and Powell River Labs (a powdered tungsten). Ours (USA) is supplied by Nordic Ammuntion Co or AMMO in Karlsborg, Sweden on Lake City brass. The size of the penetrator in side .191" or 4.86mm. In 2009, 2.2 million were made at $1.23 ea., 2010, 6.7 million at $1.63 ea., and in 2011 1.6 million will be made at $1.53 ea. so there is plenty out there.
Use the M196 red tip tracer, thats the one you want to be using as the longer m856 is intended for the M249 rifle twist. If it was me, couple tracers on top mag to get on point, then couple at end to show you are running out. (I'm not military!) Or at night use the M996 dim tracer purple tip.
For the pressure issue, not all powder is burned esp. in shorter carbine barrels. In the longer barrel, doesn't more powder burn, creating more of a pressure? Don't know how much. However both rounds use different powders, and projectile wieghts anyway (like apples and oranges)
WT size pow proj bore
M855 190gr 2.26" WC844 62 gr 55,000psi 3025fps
M995 180gr 2.25" WCR845 52gr 50,250psi 3324fps
One more thing, current US .223 incendiary M889 made by Wolf River Ammo plant near Ogden Utah, has a blue tip, not silver.
Mauser Matt if any more info needed, please feel free to ask. Any chance some pics?
Keep your eyes to the crosshairs and your head down! wolf
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:20:49 AM EDT
Sweet info!

Here's a pic of my M4.. Not M4A1. We get full auto...



It's sporting my personal Aimpoint as I don't like the EOTech or the Elcan they issued me. I wanted to try out an ACOG, but it wasn't in my SOPMOD kit... I'm using a GG&G mount. Also have the PEQ-15 and an Insight flashlight. My Magpul BAD lever, MOE stock, AVG and pistol grip along with my Magpul sling will all come home and go back on my personal AR15 back home.. I'll see if I can get a pic of the black tip ammo too.. It takes forever to upload pictures around here.. Fortunately today the internet hasn't been too bad...
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:23:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MauserMatt:
Sweet info!

Here's a pic of my M4.. Not M4A1. We get full auto...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/MauserMatt/Gun%20stuff/DSC00344.jpg

It's sporting my personal Aimpoint as I don't like the EOTech or the Elcan they issued me. I wanted to try out an ACOG, but it wasn't in my SOPMOD kit... I'm using a GG&G mount. Also have the PEQ-15 and an Insight flashlight. My Magpul BAD lever, MOE stock, AVG and pistol grip along with my Magpul sling will all come home and go back on my personal AR15 back home.. I'll see if I can get a pic of the black tip ammo too.. It takes forever to upload pictures around here.. Fortunately today the internet hasn't been too bad...


Thanks for your awesome service and sharing some your badass kit with us. Stay safe pal
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:04:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wolfganggross:
Use the M196 red tip tracer, thats the one you want to be using as the longer m856 is intended for the M249 rifle twist. If it was me, couple tracers on top mag to get on point, then couple at end to show you are running out. (I'm not military!) Or at night use the M996 dim tracer purple tip.


It comes linked with M856; newer lots of it comes with the M996.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 2:31:23 PM EDT
Maybe you could share some of your AP so we can test fire it back home as well....jk
Please post back your results
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 4:17:41 PM EDT
Very enjoyable and informative read. Thanks for the scoop on the different rounds. Us civvies will never see some of it. 15 years ago we were jumping on 'SS109' (M855) every chance we got as it was new and exotic. Used to buy 100 round belts of 4 M855 and 1 tracer at the gun show for $30 IIRC,
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:30:19 PM EDT
M933 WILL terminate the opposition. Good info in this post and most people got it right. My source......1st hand experience!
1st Group SF, Fort Lewis, Wa......happily a non military government employee now!
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:12:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Finallyablkgun:
Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:
Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's.


Basically call the guy in A-stan stupid and then type that? News-flash, putting links on a round does not increase the pressure of said round.



I pulled my link ammo I bought in the late 90`s win M855
powder wieght was 27.1grs on digital Dillon scale
LC M855 & IMI M855 was 26.2

The winchester M855 did seem hot compared to IMI & LC M855

not saying its true

Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:14:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By Finallyablkgun:
Originally Posted By CommoGunSlinger:
Linked ammo for the 249 is a hotter round, not really meant for the M-16's.


Basically call the guy in A-stan stupid and then type that? News-flash, putting links on a round does not increase the pressure of said round.



I pulled my link ammo I bought in the late 90`s win M855
powder wieght was 27.1grs on digital Dillon scale
LC M855 & IMI M855 was 26.2

The winchester M855 did seem hot compared to IMI & LC M855

not saying its true



Ammunition plants continuously test and adjust the powder-blending it as needed for the specified performance. This is something we can't do ourselves because of the equipment needed to do that testing. But having even that much difference between measured powder charges only means that the powder was different, not that the load was hotter. The SPEC hasn't changed, and that's what the ammo plants build the rounds to meet.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:26:44 PM EDT
M995 flies like M16A1 55-grain ammo. It flies straight and groups half the size of M855 "Green Tip" NATO Ball. It goes through car doors and windshields well. It kills soft skin targets nicely, too.

It is safe and designed to be fired through any US-issued 5.56mm weapon.

It is excellent ammo. It's also very expensive, which is irrelevant if you can get your hands on it.

I wouldn't mix it with green tip –– shoot it straight and you'll get better results.
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