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Posted: 3/5/2009 10:58:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
Prvi Partizan 75 grain OTM
Thanks to the efforts of the esteemed Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent information on the terminal ballistic properties of the Prvi Partizan 75 grain OTM load. Privi Partizan 75 gr OTM Velocity: 2468 fps from a 16" 1:7” twist barrel penetration in bare ballistic gel: 12.6" neck length: 0.8” maximum temporary cavity: 3.2” at a depth of 4.7” recovered diameter: 0.36” recovered length: 0.15” recovered weight: 30.1gr percentage of fragmentation: 60% The same lot of Prvi Partizan 75 grain OTM ammunition that Dr. Roberts used in testing had a nearly identical velocity when I chronographed it from a 16" Colt barrel. 
atmospheric conditions: Average temperature- 83 degrees F Humidity - 64% Barometric pressure – 30.04 Elevation- 960 feet above sea level |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:17:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: N2CH_556]
[#1]
Subscribing for further study. ETA: very nice. Thanks again. I was wondering if this PRVI 75gr would do as a "poorman's TAP" and it looks like it might be closer to a poorman's TAP FPD (.223). |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:20:06 AM EDT
[#2]
Molon,
Good to see the information on this load. Once again, your efforts are very much appreciated. Thank You. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:23:00 AM EDT
[#3]
You keep beating me to these.
 Seems like the Prvi is running just a tad slow, even for a .223 load. That may hamper its performance somewhat, but at least it sounds like it's GTG for a cheap 75gr OTM load. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:26:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cowboy7242001]
[#4]
Great results, thanks for posting!
But geez...you'd think they could get it to fly a little faster. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:27:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#5]
Originally Posted By R6731:
Molon, Good to see the information on this load. Once again, your efforts are very much appreciated. Thank You. The thanks all goes to Dr. Roberts. He was gracious enough to offer to test this load. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:33:03 AM EDT
[#6]
200 FPS slower, less penetration, smaller temporary cavity than TAP. Wonder how POI varies ??
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:36:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Originally posted by Zhukov:
Seems like the Prvi is running just a tad slow, even for a .223 load. Originally posted by cowboy7242001:
But geez...you'd think they could get it to fly a little faster. It seems that more recent lots are being loaded to a slightly higher velocity. 
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Posted: 3/5/2009 11:51:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Winn]
[#8]
How does all of this translate to estimated distances for consistent fragmentation ... IOW, what's the expected fragmentation threshold out of a 16" bbl. 
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Posted: 3/5/2009 1:09:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Great info.
By chance are there any pics from the ballistic gel test. I'd love to see how the round fragments. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 1:25:45 PM EDT
[#10]
I have ordered some of this PPU 75 from Wideners. I haven't received it yet, but how do I tell if it's 2007 or 2008 vintage?
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2009 1:44:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BushMeister]
[#11]
So 2007 Prvi 75 was tested by DocGKR?
It seems the frag test indicates that the ammo is better than M193-type rounds for self-defense (especially given the amazingly short neck length of 0.8 in., and 60% fragmentation). What would you say, Molon? I guess we can assume that this ammo would be even more effective from a 20" barrel. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 4:02:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Wondering if there have been any reports of setbacks in SBR's ??
2008 (the faster) loading still using the same bullet without cannelure ?? |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 4:21:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By R6731: 2008 (the faster) loading still using the same bullet without cannelure ?? My batch of '08 has no cannelure. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 4:39:36 PM EDT
[#14]
I love it when he does his thing! Thanks Molon!
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2009 7:10:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: phoenix27]
[#15]
Dupe
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2009 7:18:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Yeah, I'd love to know how to differentiate the sloooow '07 ammo from the faster '08 75-gr OTM lots. The boxes appear the same and so do the bullets. Any ideas out there on how to tell 'em apart?
I would also like to see how fast the newer 69-gr PRVI OTM ammo is compared to the 75-gr OTM stuff. I think Molon has that one on the radar screen for testing in the Spring when the weather breaks up in MI, but I'd like to get some info before the price goes up or they run out of stock and would really like to know what I'm getting. Seems like no one has any info on the PRVI 69-gr OTM ammo, other than it kills hogs effectively as per another post. |
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Posted: 3/9/2009 3:47:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Good info, thanks.
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USA
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Posted: 3/9/2009 3:52:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: vicious_cb]
[#18]
To tell which lot you have you just have to look at the strip of paper thats in each box of ammo. Its gives the year month and inspector number. For example it would say 0803 63 meaning 2008/03 inspector 63
Anyway the new hotter lots look to be on par with TAP FPD or Black Hills 75gr. From my personal testing it seems that Prvi 75gr and Black Hills 75gr shoot to the same point of impact at 50 yards. |
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Posted: 3/9/2009 5:29:34 PM EDT
[#19]
"maximum temporary cavity: 3.2” at a depth of 4.7” Seems like this would be pretty darn effective on Zombies. |
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Posted: 3/11/2009 12:27:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#20]
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
It seems the frag test indicates that the ammo is better than M193-type rounds for self-defense (especially given the amazingly short neck length of 0.8 in., and 60% fragmentation). What would you say, Molon? You pretty much answered this question for yourself. The ballistic neck of M193 is typically about six times longer than that of the Prvi round. This aspect alone, gives the Prvi load greatly superior terminal ballistic properties compared to M193. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/11/2009 5:19:33 AM EDT
[#21]
I wonder if we bumped the velocity we would see a larger temp. cavity. TAP and Mk242 are going more than 200 fps faster. Perhaps this is the causing the more than 1" larger cavity.
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Posted: 3/11/2009 11:33:00 AM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By phoenix27:
Yeah, I'd love to know how to differentiate the sloooow '07 ammo from the faster '08 75-gr OTM lots. The boxes appear the same and so do the bullets. Any ideas out there on how to tell 'em apart? I would also like to see how fast the newer 69-gr PRVI OTM ammo is compared to the 75-gr OTM stuff. I think Molon has that one on the radar screen for testing in the Spring when the weather breaks up in MI, but I'd like to get some info before the price goes up or they run out of stock and would really like to know what I'm getting. Seems like no one has any info on the PRVI 69-gr OTM ammo, other than it kills hogs effectively as per another post. When you open the box of ammo, there is a piece of paper in the right hand side of the box (when facing the front) that says what the lot number is. The first two numbers are the year of the lot number. 2007 is going to start with 07xx, and 2008 is going to start with 08xx. That's the easiest way to tell. |
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Posted: 3/12/2009 1:22:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Duggan]
[#23]
hmm, tempting.
Has a full range/accuracy report been done on this yet? Is this "match" ammo actually "match" quality, aka sub MOA capable? ETA - answered my own question http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=372350 |
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Posted: 3/12/2009 2:44:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BadassWeakling]
[#24]
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
It seems the frag test indicates that the ammo is better than M193-type rounds for self-defense (especially given the amazingly short neck length of 0.8 in., and 60% fragmentation). What would you say, Molon? You pretty much answered this question for yourself. The ballistic neck of M193 is typically about six times longer than that of the Prvi round. This aspect alone, gives the Prvi load greatly superior terminal ballistic properties compared to M193. 
The above M-193 chart seems to be using centimeters instead of inches. Remember that ~2.2 cm = 1 inch. Now use this chart provided by DocGKR to interpret the data he also provided. 
Originally Posted By Molon:
penetration in bare ballistic gel: 12.6" neck length: 0.8” maximum temporary cavity: 3.2” at a depth of 4.7” recovered diameter: 0.36” recovered length: 0.15” recovered weight: 30.1gr percentage of fragmentation: 60% I prefer visual representation of information  If anyone had the picture of 77 Gr or 75 gr fragnmentation handy, it would be much appreciated
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Posted: 3/15/2009 9:55:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Do all 08 lots have the faster velocities? I have several hundred 0803 and a 1000 of 0808, just curious if I will see any large velocity difference between them.
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Posted: 3/15/2009 12:33:19 PM EDT
[#26]
As always brother Molon, great work.
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Posted: 3/15/2009 9:22:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Originally Posted By cerberus212:
Do all 08 lots have the faster velocities? I have several hundred 0803 and a 1000 of 0808, just curious if I will see any large velocity difference between them. Those are both 2008 lot numbers... |
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Posted: 3/31/2009 8:28:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By BadassWeakling:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By BushMeister:
It seems the frag test indicates that the ammo is better than M193-type rounds for self-defense (especially given the amazingly short neck length of 0.8 in., and 60% fragmentation). What would you say, Molon? You pretty much answered this question for yourself. The ballistic neck of M193 is typically about six times longer than that of the Prvi round. This aspect alone, gives the Prvi load greatly superior terminal ballistic properties compared to M193. http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/ammoOraclePics/m193.jpg The above M-193 chart seems to be using centimeters instead of inches. Remember that ~2.2 cm = 1 inch. Now use this chart provided by DocGKR to interpret the data he also provided. http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1424105328171.jpg Originally Posted By Molon:
penetration in bare ballistic gel: 12.6" neck length: 0.8” maximum temporary cavity: 3.2” at a depth of 4.7” recovered diameter: 0.36” recovered length: 0.15” recovered weight: 30.1gr percentage of fragmentation: 60% I prefer visual representation of information If anyone had the picture of 77 Gr or 75 gr fragnmentation handy, it would be much appreciated NATO pressure Nosler 77 grain OTM from a 20" barrel 
courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts SAAMI pressure Hornady 75 grain OTM from a 16" barrel 
courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts |
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USA
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Posted: 4/3/2009 12:07:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By cerberus212:
Do all 08 lots have the faster velocities? I have several hundred 0803 and a 1000 of 0808, just curious if I will see any large velocity difference between them. Those are both 2008 lot numbers... It depends, even the best ammo mfgs have small lot to lot variations. I guess its just another thing to test. |
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Posted: 4/3/2009 5:55:07 PM EDT
[#30]
I am glad I found this post. I have 200rds of the 08 got in a trade. I was thinking of tradeing or selling. I won't be doing that now.
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Posted: 4/3/2009 6:12:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By Molon: NATO pressure Nosler 77 grain OTM from a 20" barrel http://home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/NATO_pressure_Nosler_77_OTM_gel_shot_from_20_inch_barrel.jpg courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts SAAMI pressure Hornady 75 grain OTM from a 16" barrel http://home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/SAMMI_pressure_Hornady_75_gel_shot_from_16_inch_barrel.jpg courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts Beautiful, thanks! |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2009 7:47:01 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm still trying to grasp the concept of the varying neck dimensions. I must be missing something. Can anyone out there translate? Thanks.
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Posted: 4/3/2009 8:05:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#33]
courtesy of DocGKR 
The “ballistic neck” length or initial upset depth is a critical component in evaluating the terminal ballistic properties of a round of ammunition. It is the length that the bullet travels in the body before it begins to upset (expand, yaw/fragment.) Keep in mind that on an average adult male, the surface of the heart is roughly 1.5” below the surface of the chest. Basically, the shorter the ballistic neck, the better. 
The difference between a round with a long ballistic neck and a short ballistic neck can be the difference between the bullet sailing through the target without having expanded/yawed/fragmented and only creating the “ice pick” wound versus a bullet that yaws, fragments and creates a large temporary cavity with large amounts of tissue damage within the target. This . . . 
versus this. 
This . . . 
versus this. 
courtesy of DocGKR |
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Posted: 4/3/2009 8:05:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BadassWeakling]
[#34]
ETA: nevermind
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NY, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2009 8:33:33 PM EDT
[#35]
Molon-
Very graphic stuff...I guess the picture really is worth 1,000-words, thanks. Hey, did you ever get a chance to test out the 69-gr OTM Prvi or the corbon 5.56mm 69 and 77-gr SMK ammo? Those results would be very intriguing. phoenix27 |
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Posted: 4/4/2009 8:47:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By phoenix27:
Molon- Very graphic stuff...I guess the picture really is worth 1,000-words, thanks. Hey, did you ever get a chance to test out the 69-gr OTM Prvi or the corbon 5.56mm 69 and 77-gr SMK ammo? Those results would be very intriguing. phoenix27 It was in the 50s here this week, so we're getting closer. 
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2009 12:12:00 AM EDT
[#37]
Does the Doc give any indication of wether the bullet yaws before fragmenting or expand like a soft point staying nose forward. All the info from hog hunters, the photo from the water jug test and other reports up till now has led me to beleive the bullet is acting as a soft point and expanding rather than yawing and fragmenting. The short neck length also indicates the bullet may be acting as an expansion rnd. I've finally got my hands on a couple of boxes and will do a back yard test in wet news print and report here soon. The news print gives a difinitive view of a bullet yawing so I can see if it yaws or expands.
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Posted: 4/5/2009 1:44:22 AM EDT
[#38]
Originally Posted By HP40:
Does the Doc give any indication of wether the bullet yaws before fragmenting or expand like a soft point staying nose forward. All the info from hog hunters, the photo from the water jug test and other reports up till now has led me to beleive the bullet is acting as a soft point and expanding rather than yawing and fragmenting. The short neck length also indicates the bullet may be acting as an expansion rnd. I've finally got my hands on a couple of boxes and will do a back yard test in wet news print and report here soon. The news print gives a difinitive view of a bullet yawing so I can see if it yaws or expands. When I shot news-print with T2 it just punched a massive hole. I could not tell you what happened definitively. It just blew a hole the size of my fist into it after about 1-2". |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2009 2:42:22 AM EDT
[#39]
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By HP40:
Does the Doc give any indication of wether the bullet yaws before fragmenting or expand like a soft point staying nose forward. All the info from hog hunters, the photo from the water jug test and other reports up till now has led me to beleive the bullet is acting as a soft point and expanding rather than yawing and fragmenting. The short neck length also indicates the bullet may be acting as an expansion rnd. I've finally got my hands on a couple of boxes and will do a back yard test in wet news print and report here soon. The news print gives a difinitive view of a bullet yawing so I can see if it yaws or expands. When I shot news-print with T2 it just punched a massive hole. I could not tell you what happened definitively. It just blew a hole the size of my fist into it after about 1-2". Maybe my definitive test won't won't be so definitive after all, I know know my tests of various M193 and M855 rnds all showed the yaw very clearly as the bullet profile shape of the hole prior to the main wound cavity.The only soft points I've tested were Remington 55 gr. PSP wich showed expansion begining at 1" and being fully expanded at 2" wich was the begining of a massive cavity extending to 6" with 11" total penetration. I've always been impressed with how closely wet newsprint corrosponds to ballistic gel though I've heard of deviations others have had. |
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Posted: 4/5/2009 8:29:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By HP40:
Does the Doc give any indication of wether the bullet yaws before fragmenting or expand like a soft point staying nose forward. The Doc stated, "They yaw, then fragment." (He's not one to waste words.) |
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USA
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Posted: 4/5/2009 10:57:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By HP40: Does the Doc give any indication of wether the bullet yaws before fragmenting or expand like a soft point staying nose forward. The Doc stated, "They yaw, then fragment." (He's not one to waste words.) You're right, he's pretty quiet most of the time. |
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Posted: 4/6/2009 3:31:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By phoenix27: Molon- Very graphic stuff...I guess the picture really is worth 1,000-words, thanks. Hey, did you ever get a chance to test out the 69-gr OTM Prvi or the corbon 5.56mm 69 and 77-gr SMK ammo? Those results would be very intriguing. phoenix27 It was in the 50s here this week, so we're getting closer. http://www.box.net/shared/static/v7004ph42k.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/70h027aae4.jpg We just got clobbered with blizzard-like snow and sleet  I'm looking forward to the 69gr Privi test [and warmer weather!] |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 5:06:16 PM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By phoenix27:
Molon- Very graphic stuff...I guess the picture really is worth 1,000-words, thanks. Hey, did you ever get a chance to test out the 69-gr OTM Prvi or the corbon 5.56mm 69 and 77-gr SMK ammo? Those results would be very intriguing. phoenix27 It was in the 50s here this week, so we're getting closer. http://www.box.net/shared/static/v7004ph42k.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/70h027aae4.jpg We just got clobbered with blizzard-like snow and sleet
I'm looking forward to the 69gr Privi test [and warmer weather!] It's in the 60's today, so it should be sometime soon. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2009 8:42:47 AM EDT
[#44]
Originally Posted By cowboy7242001:
Great results, thanks for posting! But geez...you'd think they could get it to fly a little faster. they probably could I bet they did it to keep the presures well with in the safe range of 223. MK262 dose a bit faster than this I think but I hear it's considered a fairly hot load as well. |
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Posted: 5/3/2009 9:02:46 AM EDT
[#45]
thanks!
Question: Isn't 13" perfect? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2009 7:07:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
thanks! Question: Isn't 13" perfect? Perfect? I guess it depends. Are you shooting a 6 foot, 135 lb emaciated turd or a 6 foot, 550 lb fat ass. In one case 13" might be to much in another 13" might not be enough. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2009 7:34:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By phoenix27:
Molon- Very graphic stuff...I guess the picture really is worth 1,000-words, thanks. Hey, did you ever get a chance to test out the 69-gr OTM Prvi or the corbon 5.56mm 69 and 77-gr SMK ammo? Those results would be very intriguing. phoenix27 It was in the 50s here this week, so we're getting closer. http://www.box.net/shared/static/v7004ph42k.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/70h027aae4.jpg We just got clobbered with blizzard-like snow and sleet
I'm looking forward to the 69gr Privi test [and warmer weather!] It's in the 60's today, so it should be sometime soon. Molon- You're such a tease, ha-ha. |
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Posted: 5/6/2009 12:45:15 AM EDT
[#48]
Originally Posted By fdkay:
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
thanks! Question: Isn't 13" perfect? Perfect? I guess it depends. Are you shooting a 6 foot, 135 lb emaciated turd or a 6 foot, 550 lb fat ass. In one case 13" might be to much in another 13" might not be enough. Which is why you want lots of penetration with a short neck before yaw/fragmentation. |
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Posted: 5/6/2009 6:51:33 AM EDT
[#49]
got it, I though the 'goal' of a good round was 13-18 inches
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Posted: 5/6/2009 9:56:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
got it, I though the 'goal' of a good round was 13-18 inches The FBI standard is 12"-18". |
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