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Posted: 3/28/2006 7:24:24 AM EDT
This my sound like a stupid question but I am not that familier with Black Hills ammo. I have seen it around and thought it said they reload or remanufactor their ammo. Would this void a warrant on a new firearm such as Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:31:53 AM EDT
YMMV, but I'd prefer Black Hills "blue-box" (reloaded ammo) over alot of other ammo makers front line ammo.

FWIW ya can also buy NEW Black Hills ammunition, it comes in the red-box.....

Mike

ps - as to voiding the warranty, I seriously doubt it due to Black Hill's reputation for quality ammunition, but it is 2006 after all and I'm certain there'd be no problem finding a Bushmaster or RRA attorney to argue that point against ya.....
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:49:56 AM EDT
Black hills appears to use Good components in their Blue Box line. But I won't buy any more of it due to the fact that they don't trim the cases back into spec.

FALARAK and I both found our samples to be out of spec. Blue box is made with what appears to be once fired, untrimmed, Military brass. Military ammo is loaded hot, and the cases stretch a lot when fired. The Min/Max case length is a narrow window, and Blue Box is quite outside of that window.

I'm guessing that pressure problems with the Blue Box are not an issue because the ammo is only loaded to .223 pressure levels.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:36:58 AM EDT
I have some from about 12-15 years ago that shoots nicely. I bought some recently (blue bx) soft points and they had used fired winchester cases and some of that funky crimp winchester uses on their Q3131 was left on the cartridge. I didn't think it shot near as well as the older stuff I have.
JR
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:46:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JRandyH:
I have some from about 12-15 years ago that shoots nicely. I bought some recently (blue bx) soft points and they had used fired winchester cases and some of that funky crimp winchester uses on their Q3131 was left on the cartridge. I didn't think it shot near as well as the older stuff I have.
JR



Yeah. That's military brass.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:00:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
Black hills appears to use Good components in their Blue Box line. But I won't buy any more of it due to the fact that they don't trim the cases back into spec.

FALARAK and I both found our samples to be out of spec. Blue box is made with what appears to be once fired, untrimmed, Military brass. Military ammo is loaded hot, and the cases stretch a lot when fired. The Min/Max case length is a narrow window, and Blue Box is quite outside of that window.

I'm guessing that pressure problems with the Blue Box are not an issue because the ammo is only loaded to .223 pressure levels.



Don't you think BH will stand behind their ammo if it was bad? They are a good company.

FWIW, I have shot a lot of BH blue box and NEVER had any issues.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:18:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 10:19:36 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By ColSanders:
Don't you think BH will stand behind their ammo if it was bad? They are a good company.

FWIW, I have shot a lot of BH blue box and NEVER had any issues.



I'm not saying that they don't stand behind their product. I didn't have any issues with the box I tested either. But the Fact is that the brass is out of spec which is why I started the following thread....

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=9&t=444423
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:58:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 10:58:56 AM EDT by FMJ]

Originally Posted By markm:
Black hills appears to use Good components in their Blue Box line. But I won't buy any more of it due to the fact that they don't trim the cases back into spec.

FALARAK and I both found our samples to be out of spec. Blue box is made with what appears to be once fired, untrimmed, Military brass. Military ammo is loaded hot, and the cases stretch a lot when fired. The Min/Max case length is a narrow window, and Blue Box is quite outside of that window.

I'm guessing that pressure problems with the Blue Box are not an issue because the ammo is only loaded to .223 pressure levels.



YES

And there win brass/77gr sticks a bit in my LMT other than that it shoots fine for targets
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:13:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:

YES

And there win brass/77gr sticks a bit in my LMT other than that it shoots fine for targets



No kidding? I didn't think to even try that. I'm assuming that would be the brass binding up between the bullet and the chamber throat.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:02:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 12:02:17 PM EDT by ColSanders]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By ColSanders:
Don't you think BH will stand behind their ammo if it was bad? They are a good company.

FWIW, I have shot a lot of BH blue box and NEVER had any issues.



I'm not saying that they don't stand behind their product. I didn't have any issues with the box I tested either. But the Fact is that the brass is out of spec which is why I started the following thread....

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=9&t=444423



I don't know, so that's why I am asking, but what are the potential consequences of shooting ammo that the cases haven't been trimmed back to spec on?

KaBoom?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 12:32:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColSanders:
what are the potential consequences of shooting ammo that the cases haven't been trimmed back to spec on?

KaBoom?



I suppose in a WORST CASE scenario, yes. According to my Lee Factory Crimp instructions, excessive case length increases presure from binding the bullet at the case mouth!
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:33:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:49:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 2:50:31 PM EDT by pcurtis]

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
All,
Several comments. Re BHA remanufactured ammo and fireams warranties. Warranty policies are up to each gun company. I have never known it to happen, but like I said, each company can set their own policies. Our policy is that if you are using our ammo and have any problem we are going to do our best to make sure you are satisfied with the result. Either the gun company owes you a resolution or we do, assuming you did nothing to cause the problem (like I said in an earlier post..like plugging the barrel with mud, modifying the gun in an unsafe manner, etc) If it's an ammo problem we would take care of it. If it's a gun problem we would work with you and the gun company to get a fair result. Gun companies generally want happy customers too, and understand the value of giving the customer good service. Regardless of any specific ammunition recommendations, they do not want to refuse service to customers, and in my experience normally do everything they can to ensure a fair result.
Re trim length, yes, fired mil brass can go over SAAMI spec length. We use only once fired mil brass in order to minimize this and other concerns. That is the reason we don't want fired brass back. By using only once fired mil brass we can minimize the concern. I can also say that in 25 years I have never seen a problem traceable to trim length on our .223 remanufactured ammuniton. I am not arguing with Markm. It is entirely his choice what ammo he chooses to use.
I am just saying that we have never had a pressure problem due to brass length , and that we certainly do stand behind our product and have also not had any problems with gun companies turning away any customer due to using our ammunition. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman



sierraeight,
Thanks for your post for clarification to others. I use the BH 75gr blue box loadings as a cheaper practice ammo to the Hornady .223 TAP. I have literally thousand of rounds down range of it. Most in AR's 90% of ARFCOM can't afford, either price or reliablity. It has always been within a couple a clicks of the TAP. I always re-zero with the Hornaday. But, bottom line is I have zero issues with your blue box equivalent.
ETA: correct a typo.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:08:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 3:13:16 PM EDT by Easy_E]

Originally Posted By pcurtis:

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
All,
Several comments. Re BHA remanufactured ammo and fireams warranties. Warranty policies are up to each gun company. I have never known it to happen, but like I said, each company can set their own policies. Our policy is that if you are using our ammo and have any problem we are going to do our best to make sure you are satisfied with the result. Either the gun company owes you a resolution or we do, assuming you did nothing to cause the problem (like I said in an earlier post..like plugging the barrel with mud, modifying the gun in an unsafe manner, etc) If it's an ammo problem we would take care of it. If it's a gun problem we would work with you and the gun company to get a fair result. Gun companies generally want happy customers too, and understand the value of giving the customer good service. Regardless of any specific ammunition recommendations, they do not want to refuse service to customers, and in my experience normally do everything they can to ensure a fair result.
Re trim length, yes, fired mil brass can go over SAAMI spec length. We use only once fired mil brass in order to minimize this and other concerns. That is the reason we don't want fired brass back. By using only once fired mil brass we can minimize the concern. I can also say that in 25 years I have never seen a problem traceable to trim length on our .223 remanufactured ammuniton. I am not arguing with Markm. It is entirely his choice what ammo he chooses to use.
I am just saying that we have never had a pressure problem due to brass length , and that we certainly do stand behind our product and have also not had any problems with gun companies turning away any customer due to using our ammunition. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman



sierraeight,
Thanks for your post for clarification to others. I use the BH 75gr blue box loadings as a cheaper practice ammo to the Hornady .223 TAP. I have literally thousand of rounds down range of it. Most in AR's 90% of ARFCOM can't afford, either price or reliablity. It has always been within a couple a clicks of the TAP. I always re-zero with the Hornaday. But, bottom line is I have zero issues with your blue box equivalent.
ETA: correct a typo.



What's that supposed to mean?

We are going to carry Blackhills ammo were I work. I shot thousands of rounds mostly thru AR's that 100% of ARFCOM could afford.
I can't eat and type.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:32:06 PM EDT
I want to add - since markm mentioned my posted information:

I did verify that some of my BH blue box ammo was indeed beyond SAAMI max length, when measured by a case gauge and calipers. That much is true.

However, I have never had any reliability issues because of it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:37:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 3:41:06 PM EDT by FMJ]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By FMJ:

YES

And there win brass/77gr sticks a bit in my LMT other than that it shoots fine for targets



No kidding? I didn't think to even try that. I'm assuming that would be the brass binding up between the bullet and the chamber throat.



Yes I think?

Strange thing is the LC brass/77gr works just fine? no sticking problem


I would love to show ya!

its driveing me nuts that all other ammo works great except the WIN brass with 77gr

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 4:30:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Easy_E:


It means the BH blue box is as reliable for practice for 75gr loadings compared to the Hornaday .223 TAP. Nothing more. Just let go. This is one of the reason this site is no longer a true Weapons Forum.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:01:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pcurtis:

Originally Posted By Easy_E:


It means the BH blue box is as reliable for practice for 75gr loadings compared to the Hornaday .223 TAP. Nothing more. Just let go. This is one of the reason this site is no longer a true Weapons Forum.



I thought you meant you shoot weapons we can't afford. I agree with you on the ammo. I shot a few boxes of Tap myself and need a cheaper ammo I can afford for more practice.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:25:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
I can also say that in 25 years I have never seen a problem traceable to trim length on our .223 remanufactured ammuniton. I am not arguing with Markm. It is entirely his choice what ammo he chooses to use.
I am just saying that we have never had a pressure problem due to brass length , and that we certainly do stand behind our product and have also not had any problems with gun companies turning away any customer due to using our ammunition. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman



Ditto, I whole-heartedly agree with these comments.

YMMV, but as dad and I both are not near as concerned as some about 223 brass "trimming" (we rarely trim 223 brass at all, no matter how many times it's reloaded) I too, see markm comments about over spec brass length as a non-issue in this regard. And while most certainly Mr. Hoffman has probably forgotten more about reloading than most of us will ever know, my old long range shooting and reloading mentor told me years ago essentially the exact same information with regard to 223 caliber reloading.

The blue-box (and red) Black Hills ammunition I have fired over the last 6 years or so has NEVER once caused a problem or failed to go bang at the pull of a trigger. Can't ask for much better than that from an ammunition company.

It's reliable, very pretty (which matters to some) and some of the most accurate commercially produced ammunition on the market in the weights MY rifles like.

Mike

ps - if the blue-box (reloaded) ammo gives ya the willies ya could always step up to the red-box (NEW) ammunition, which comes w/ sealed primers and IMO is very competitively priced. I stock both the red and the blue in various weights, mostly the 77SMK and the Hornady 75 match HPBT.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:02:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
I can also say that in 25 years I have never seen a problem traceable to trim length on our .223 remanufactured ammuniton. I am not arguing with Markm. It is entirely his choice what ammo he chooses to use.
I am just saying that we have never had a pressure problem due to brass length , and that we certainly do stand behind our product and have also not had any problems with gun companies turning away any customer due to using our ammunition. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman



Good info. I don't think anyone is saying that there is any performance issue with Black Hills blue box.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:44:19 AM EDT
Right I buy it all the Time now! Love the 75gr Blue Box BEST!

Even though the 77gr. in win brass sticks in my 14.5LMT M4 I stills feeds and ejects!

Just kinda takes effort to eject a live round manually?

Other than That I will still use the 75gr B.H. Blue Box for protection!

I always test the ammo out in my AR`S before I would use it for SHTF No matter what Name is on it.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:55:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:26:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
Black hills appears to use Good components in their Blue Box line. But I won't buy any more of it due to the fact that they don't trim the cases back into spec.
....



Good that mean more for ME!

Another shooter who's never had an issue with Black Hills.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:59:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By markm:
Black hills appears to use Good components in their Blue Box line. But I won't buy any more of it due to the fact that they don't trim the cases back into spec.
....



Good that mean more for ME!

Another shooter who's never had an issue with Black Hills.



I'm sure there's plenty enough for everyone.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:25:29 AM EDT
never had a problem either.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:36:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 1:02:41 PM EDT by FMJ]

Originally Posted By sierraeight:
FMJ,
If you are having any problems, please call us at 1-800-568-6625. Speak to Carl. We will do our best to solve your concerns. We will want to get your lot number and do testing. I suggest we may want to arrange to have your upper sent to Karl Lewis At Lewis machine to be checked out. There are a number of possible explanations. We will cover all costs of shipping and any corrections which might be helpful. Possibilities are extractor, extractor insert, spring, chamber finish. I am not trying to blame the rifle. LMT makes good stuff. I am saying we need to fix your problem, and to do that we should look at all possbilities. Thanks, Jeff



Ive talk to Gene Swanson of LMT last couple of weeks ago? Call and ask HIM

My LMT has no trouble with
S&B ss109
Santa Barbra ss109
LC M855
Win M855
Blue box Black Hills 75gr
Blue Box Black Hills 77 gr with LC brass cae only? STRANGE
Wolf M193
Q3131
Q3131A
Xm193
Win regular 223 55fmj some times wont lock back on last round fired? H buffer me thinks

Do you mean to tell me that After already Talking to Mr Swanson you NOW think its a PROBLEM?

Im happy with it! Im just state a Fact that My rifle sticks with the Win brass/77gr ONLY

My Bushmaster Dont share the Problem with the WIN Brass/77gr

BOTH HAVE 5.56mm Chambers??

I think its just a Fluke? That the LMT dont like this combo of WIN Brass and the 77 smk?

And I LOVE BLACK HILLS BTW

Since it works FINE in my Bushmaster it really makes me think its the LMT?

Dont under stand why this is going on it makes NO since?


ALSO I talk with Bravo company also? WE cant seem to figure it out? shoots all the above rounds?

The rifle is sorta brand new only 780rds fired to date. I keep track

hope its just a break in thing?


Did you read the part that I said it will Feed & eject the WIN/77gr. when fireing?

and it is hard to manully eject the win/77gr round


LOT #? 1271011375 is the bar code thats tape on box Bought 500rds From Midway
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