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Posted: 3/27/2006 5:45:17 PM EDT
First off, let me say that I am not a Wolf-hater. I uses it [55gr Poly steel cased] abundantly in my RR 10.25" and 16" barrels. I believe I have used it successfully in my Colt A1 upper. The problem is that it keeps short-stroking my Bushy A2 20" barrel. I have examined bolt gas rings---fine. I have switched bolts [not a good thing to do, but this was an experiment}. Switched lowers. Used A2 lower and CAR Lower. Pulled and examined gas tube---fine. Pulled front sight base and examined gas port...fine. Tightened magazine catch...fine. Examined and lubed buffer assemblies---fine. Does anybody else have a Bushy 20" which almost always short-strokes with Wolf? Everything works in any combination with anything else. The Bushy would not work with the Wolf. It used to work with other stuff. Have I overlooked something? I'll try it with Canadian SS109 Thursday. 266
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 5:56:03 PM EDT
I had a Bushmaster do the exact same thing. I swapped out known bolt/carrier groups, lowers, etc to no avail. I suspect the gas port was slightly out of alignment with the FSB. That upper would cycle with WWB and PMC, but the action always felt "soft".
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:42:15 PM EDT
Check your front sight pins. They might be loose, and naturally, gas leaks there. Also, the carrier key may not be aligned with the gas tube.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:38:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 3:45:02 AM EDT by 266-23]

Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
I suspect the gas port was slightly out of alignment with the FSB.



That's a good idea. Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to check the gas port in the bottom of the FSB when I had the thing off last night. Do you think that I might be able slightly enlarge the opening there to trap gas in case it is slightly off center? Or, might that be asking for trouble?

rch, the pins were so tight that I could barely drive them out.

ETA By the way, thanks for your observations and comments. I was hoping to use this barrel as simply a FA blasting-for-fun barrel on a Title 2 using the cheap stuff. I also had some real old Lake City early 70s scratch and dent stuff I got from Paragon Sales and Services [remember them?!] that also didn't cycle.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 5:50:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 7:12:33 AM EDT by thebigruss]

Originally Posted By 266-23:

That's a good idea. Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to check the gas port in the bottom of the FSB when I had the thing off last night. Do you think that I might be able slightly enlarge the opening there to trap gas in case it is slightly off center? Or, might that be asking for trouble?




Uh, don't enlarge the gas port unless you want the problem to get worse. This is a typical misunderstanding to the causes of short-stroking. See, the gas system is designed for only one thing: to unlock the bolt from the barrel extension. There is nowhere near enough gas to push the bolt all the way back in the carrier; the force of the cartridge does that after the bolt unlocks.

The timing of the system is so that after ignition, when the forces in the chamber are highest, the bolt is locked into the barrel extension to prevent a kaboom. As the bullet travels down the barrel and passes the gas port, hot gas runs down the tube and unlocks the bolt just when pressures have dropped to safe levels. However, too much gas will have a much higher velocity and will try and unlock the bolt early. This isn't dangerous, but the bolt will try and yank the cartridge out (the cartridge can be exerting several thousand PSI against the chamber walls) and not have enough residual energy to do so by the time pressures drop. With a Bushy this is not so much a problem with regular ammo, but Wolf and other cheap ammo can have slower burning powder. This translates into a higher pressure spike in the barrel just when the bullet passes the gas port. Faster burning powders have earlier pressure spikes, so the Bushy is less prone to short-stroke on them.

All that to say you might have an overly large gas port to begin with. Unfortunately there's no easy way to test this, short of making a smaller hole, or buying an adjustable gas block from JP Enterprises or someone like that and testing it. To get a smaller gas port have a professional gunsmith do it. Or, if you feel confident, just drill out the old one, weld in a bushing, then drill a hole in it that is smaller than the original.

Hope this helps.

ETA: I just thought of this and have no idea if it'll work. First off, are using standard gapped gas rings on your bolt carrier? If you're using the "fancy" one-piece gas rings, switch them back. A lot of people have problems with these because of excessive gas pressures. If that doesn't work or you're already using standard rings, you could try and use a grinding wheel on a rotary tool to widen the gaps. Hopefully this will reduce the gas pressure enough to fix the problem.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:57:25 AM EDT
My Colt (open backed B/C) used to routinely short stroke with Wolf 62gr. It usually cycled,but was never able to lock back on any magazine I owned. Winchester and my reloads ran fine,and always locked back. Swapping in a B/C from an Armalite caused it to run fine,as did any other heavy bolt carrier. Swapping in an M4 stock with carbine buffer,etc made it almost nonfunctional (didn't cycle enough to strip a new round).
The same case of Wolf runs fine in my newest build. I finally figured that it was easier to just use my stash of Wolf in another AR or just give it away.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:13:08 AM EDT
Mine did that at first. I like to run my ar on the dry side. So I just make sure and keep the bolt and cam pin well lubed. Also made sure the buffer is very lightly lubed. After all that - runs like a champ - problem solved. BTW, this was on my 16".
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:35:26 PM EDT
Most of my Bushmasters will short stroke on Wolf russian steel case ammo. Especially when they are dry and/or dirty. Just life. I wouldnt change anything. If you are going to play - try lighter buffers, and clip some coils from your buffer spring. (keep spares - this might cause failure to feed if there is not enough spring tension on your buffer)

Wolf has been saying they are going to up the velocity by 100FPS, which will cure this in many rifles.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:56:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 3:57:29 PM EDT by FMJ]
Buffers I bet cause most of it!

I got a H buffer in my VLTOR and hates some 223 pressure loads?

wont lock back after last round! WIN 55 223

dont have the trouble with m193/M855/BH75
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 4:35:04 PM EDT
Mine does. It will fail to feed once out of every 2 mags or so and it is rare that the bolt will hold open. Runs everything else 100%. Wolf is great blasting/plinking ammo and I don't mind the failures. Gives me practice clearing them.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:47:53 PM EDT
I'm so damn new and dumb at this, I didn't know what "short stroking" meant until I shot some Wolf 62 in my Bushy (M4A3, 14.5" style) for the first time the other day. Damned if it didn't misfeed on the second round fired. It did it several times and I didn't know why. I was blaming the new mags. Thanks for the info fellas.

But my solution is going to be simple, I only bought 4 20-round boxes of Wolf to try out and now I just won't buy it anymore until you guys say it has been improved.

But my Bushy does like FedAE, Q3131 and Q3131A, Wal-Mart White Box, and, of course, XM193 (I have only 8 boxes remaining of that stuff and I shoot it like a fine wine). The Remington green and yellow box also gave me a couple of "short stroke" problems and I shit-canned it off my buy list.

I don't know what to do about buffers and springs and gas tubes. You'd never know I was a Marine and fired hundreds and hundreds of rounds in the Nam. All I really know is that I miss my full "auto" setting.

Oh, yes, I am having a JP trigger installed. The Bushy stock trigger seems like a 10-pounder. Am I getting a good trigger in JP?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 3:25:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GentleBen:
All I really know is that I miss my full "auto" setting.


Understood.
Best investment I ever made was my Sendra/Bushmeister lower RR for $1,175 plus the $200 tax. Picked it up in early June of 1993. Nothing but joy, peace, and love since then. Yes, ever since FA came into my life, I've never known such beauty and wonder. I wish that everyone could know and experience such joyous wonder.
Some people "bumpfire." If I were in a semi-only mode, I'd rather practice and become skilled at aimed rapid [i.e., reflex] double-tapping.

The Wolf short-strokes in the following manner: Fails to engage disconnector or strip round off of mag. Locks half-way closed with the hammer engaging and catching the firing pin. Only does it on the Bushmeister 20" A2. It does not happen one the Busher 16" Superlight, Busher 16" HBAR, or the M1 Sales 10.25" upper, or the Colt 20" slab-side upper.
266
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 3:56:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GentleBen:
I'm so damn new and dumb at this, I didn't know what "short stroking" meant until I shot some Wolf 62 in my Bushy (M4A3, 14.5" style) for the first time the other day. Damned if it didn't misfeed on the second round fired. It did it several times and I didn't know why. I was blaming the new mags. Thanks for the info fellas.

But my solution is going to be simple, I only bought 4 20-round boxes of Wolf to try out and now I just won't buy it anymore until you guys say it has been improved.

But my Bushy does like FedAE, Q3131 and Q3131A, Wal-Mart White Box, and, of course, XM193 (I have only 8 boxes remaining of that stuff and I shoot it like a fine wine). The Remington green and yellow box also gave me a couple of "short stroke" problems and I shit-canned it off my buy list.

I don't know what to do about buffers and springs and gas tubes. You'd never know I was a Marine and fired hundreds and hundreds of rounds in the Nam. All I really know is that I miss my full "auto" setting.

Oh, yes, I am having a JP trigger installed. The Bushy stock trigger seems like a 10-pounder. Am I getting a good trigger in JP?



IMHO JP trigger set ups are some of the best!! I have one in mine w/ a low mass hammer it makes for a super fast reset time.
good luck and have fun
usmc5593
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 3:14:53 PM EDT
Upon perusing many of the articles over at the Troubleshooting section, it appears that the best thing to do is to polish the chamber manually and/or firing with clean brass ammo. The tight Bushy chambers plus the low PSI [40,000 versus 60,000 PSI according to another poster] and 'friction' of the Wolf Poly steel cases seems to be the most probable culprit. Even though the Bushy A2 is 13 years old, it is hardly fired and almost like new. E.g., it still needs to be broken in. Many Bushmeister 20" barrels seem to grow gradually accepting of Wolf Poly over time. I guess we will see. 266
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:37:44 PM EDT
Shot 60 rounds of Canadian SS109 with no problem. then shot about 10-13 rounds of PMC 55 gr. also with no problems. Tried the Wolf again, and it short stroked every time. It will not work in the rather new Bushy 20" barrel. Maybe if I put 1000 rounds of brass mil-spec ammo, it will polish the chamber and get the Wolf to work. Most of the time, I shoot carbines anyhow. 266
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:43:51 PM EDT
On the wolf thing...

They run about 10,000 pounds under pressure. In a clean, loose gun this is no problem. In a tight, perhaps "finicky" gun it can be a major issue.

On a cost basis, I simply can't argue against wolf ammo. (at least in the past.)

They rank in the third tier. This is the area that means money for trigger time. If you don't get the trigger time.. It wasn't worth the discount.... For you.

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