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Posted: 3/26/2006 3:18:41 AM EDT
Bought 500 rounds of 5.56 (62) M855 Penetrator. A few questions.......

Was told the Manufacturer was Winchester, is it?

The box on the back is marked "Olin".
Bullet case are marked... WCC, 04, and some symbol that looks like it has 4 dots.

The bullet has a painted green tip and 3/4 to the top of the case ,looks like it has been
cleaned, or rubbed.(the finish is more dull)

Any info would be appreciated. Pics below




Frank
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:10:44 AM EDT
I think so.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:59:26 AM EDT
i'd say Olin (winchester label) made M855 - the symbol is the NATO cross.
cases have been annealed - thats the duller area from shoulder up the neck.

oughta be good stuff. haven't seen too much of that around here.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:02:33 AM EDT
+1 with Mancaihr a.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:02:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By machaira:
i'd say Olin (winchester label) made M855 - the symbol is the NATO cross.
cases have been annealed - thats the duller area from shoulder up the neck.

oughta be good stuff. haven't seen too much of that around here.

Probably because it costs over $300 a case.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:04:26 AM EDT
Frank how much did you pay for the ammo? Just wondering. Save that ammo for a rainy day.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:06:38 AM EDT
Olin owns Winchester
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 5:21:04 AM EDT

Frank how much did you pay for the ammo? Just wondering


$142.50 for 500 rounds, I hear its good ammo just not all that accurate (2-4 MOA)



cases have been annealed


What exactly does that mean and why?(it's probably in the ammo oracle, I'll look)

Thanks for info
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:36:01 AM EDT
I bought 2 cases (900 rds per) from sportsman's guide, looks like same stuff. WCC 04, green tip, on strippers, no bandoliers. I have not shot it yet though. It was labeled m855, ss109 bullet.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:42:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FrankAR15:

Frank how much did you pay for the ammo? Just wondering


$142.50 for 500 rounds, I hear its good ammo just not all that accurate (2-4 MOA)



cases have been annealed


What exactly does that mean and why?(it's probably in the ammo oracle, I'll look)

Thanks for info



it has something to do with heating up the brass to make it stronger or something like that or I could be talking out my ass and be clueless but it does have something to do with heating the brass
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:52:02 AM EDT
I think annealing is for softening the case mouth because they become hard or brittle after firing. It is a heating process. Makes the brass last longer. Or I could be wrong too, wouldn't be the first time.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:59:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 7:00:43 AM EDT by GHPorter]
Anealing makes the brass more elastic so it doesn't crack. It relieves work stresses in the metal. It IS a processes involving heating the shoulder and neck of the case.

Edit to add:
"WCC" stands for "Winchester Cartridge Company." The number is the last two digits of the year the case was made, and the symbol is a circle with a cross in it-the NATO standard symbol.

The stuff is DEFINITELY Winchester, and appears to be really good stuff.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:08:19 AM EDT
Winchester and Olin one in the same company, but the 5.56 is made by IMI.

Art
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:27:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kalwasart:
Winchester and Olin one in the same company, but the 5.56 is made by IMI.

Art

Not this stuff-even the box says "made in USA."
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:18:48 AM EDT
I have some WIN M855 that was on LINKS

Has no NATO CROSS? 27.1gr of ball powder of some type

And every 4th round is Lake City M856 Tracer with the Nato Cross
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:21:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 11:36:34 AM EDT by FMJ]
double post Sorry
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:43:23 AM EDT
I was at IMI several times last year with Winchester marked brass everywhere. To the best of my knowledge the only M855 projectiles being made in the States comes out of Lake. With no love between ATK and Winchester I dought very much if they are getting it from Lake City. Maybe Winchester is buying components and assembling in the States, more companys are doing it now a days. When Winchester was running Lake City they had no need to produce 5.56 at their plant they ran what they needed at Lake. When they lost Lake City they were high and dry when it came to 5.56 and they turned to IMI.

IMI, Winchester, G.D. along with SNC from Canada are working together to fulfill shortages for the U.S. Governement so there a lot of dealing between them.

Art
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:31:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kalwasart:
I was at IMI several times last year with Winchester marked brass everywhere. To the best of my knowledge the only M855 projectiles being made in the States comes out of Lake. With no love between ATK and Winchester I dought very much if they are getting it from Lake City. Maybe Winchester is buying components and assembling in the States, more companys are doing it now a days. When Winchester was running Lake City they had no need to produce 5.56 at their plant they ran what they needed at Lake. When they lost Lake City they were high and dry when it came to 5.56 and they turned to IMI.

IMI, Winchester, G.D. along with SNC from Canada are working together to fulfill shortages for the U.S. Governement so there a lot of dealing between them.

Art

I think they get the brass directly from Winchester to load Q3131a. That might explain interesting variations I've seen in Q3131a headstamps. And Q3131 is marked "Made in USA" on the box. I also spoke with the Winchester rep at the NRA show last spring (about why Q3131 and other 5.56mm Winchester products weren't on the shelves) and he said they were fully extended in fulfilling DoD contracts so all their 5.56mm/.223 production was going there instead of commercial channels. This all gave me the impression that Winchester was still making a significant number of product lines in the States. 'Course I could be missing something here...
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:27:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 8:29:26 AM EDT by optionstrader]
Removed
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:00:43 AM EDT
Do you guys think that when the wars end (if they ever do) that there were be more "1st class" M885 coming our way?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:17:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:21:58 AM EDT
Frank,

Are those primer all sealed. Its hard to tell from the picture. Have you shot any yet? If so, how did you like it?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:00:17 PM EDT
IMI was making the Winchester marked case and shipping to Winchester. I do not know if they were sending loaded rounds or just cases. All Winchester has to say is that 51% of the cartridge was made in the States to say made in USA. Does that mean buying cases and projectiles from overseas and loading here in the States equals 51% than so be it.


Art
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:08:19 PM EDT
I bought 3 cases, it shoots just like the IMI so I wouldn't be suprised that it's made from IMI componets. It's definitely top of the line but at $300.00 per 1000 it should be some of the best.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:09:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 3:09:59 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:11:49 PM EDT

Frank,

Are those primer all sealed. Its hard to tell from the picture. Have you shot any yet? If so, how did you like it?

Thanks.



Haven't shot it yet, won't take delivery of my first AR until next Monday(RRA Pro-series Government)

The primers are supposed to be sealed, they have some red coloring around them.

Someone told me that the M855 will only shoot 2-4 MOA.
I'm currently looking for a deal on Black Hills 52gr. match ammo that shoud shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA

Frank
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:30:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kalwasart:
Winchester and Olin one in the same company, but the 5.56 is made by IMI.

Art



I've seen WCC that is made in Israel, but not the one on the picture. The box is reminiscent of the 1970's-80's M193 cartridge that I have in the Philippines. WCC in the US makes 5.56mm as well as WCC and IMI in Israel.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:17:59 PM EDT
Dammit.

Sportsman's Guide 289.97 16.99 306.96 Win Q3269 Sportsman's Guide
Sportsman's Guide 277.74 16.99 294.73 $249.97/900 Sportsman's Guide

Same ammo? Fairly large price difference boxed vs. strippers.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:48:07 AM EDT
It depends on your rifle? if M855 will shoot


MY AR`S shoot Santa Barbra SS109 better than any M193/M855

Also just as good as 69bthp

Its just what my AR`S seem to like best!

Some differ

Black Hills seems like a good start!

yesterday I shot there Blue Box 77gr. and 75gr.

It help shrink my groups at 200 yards compared to LC M855 Alot

Man that 100 yard target looks SMALL at 200 yards
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:52:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:
Dammit.

Sportsman's Guide 289.97 16.99 306.96 Win Q3269 Sportsman's Guide
Sportsman's Guide 277.74 16.99 294.73 $249.97/900 Sportsman's Guide

Same ammo? Fairly large price difference boxed vs. strippers.



No one? One is a hell of a deal, the other not? Both are M855, according to the pics, not according to the text.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:14:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kalwasart:
Winchester and Olin one in the same company, but the 5.56 is made by IMI.

Art



Not this batch, Bubba.

IIRC, the headstamps that read "W.C.C." are israeli made, and "WCC" is USA made.

The ammo pictured is bonafied M855 mil ammo. But it's still just M855 ammo, and I wouldn't pay a premium for what I feel is a mediocre round.
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