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Posted: 3/25/2006 1:54:39 PM EDT
I just wanted to get some opinions on a head-to head between these two. Which one is the best choice? Accuracy and performance.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 3:01:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 3:04:01 PM EDT by DevL]
The Hornady yaws earlier in flesh and thus is considered slightly better in terminal performance (2-3" vs 5"+). The cannelure on the MK 262 Mod 1 is not a traditional cannelure design and MAY allow for SLIGHTLY improvedaccuracy but you can get 75 grain 5.56 TAP new in box and only seconds of the MK262 Mod 1. I believe the MK262 Mod 1 has a sleaed primer (not sure) the Hornady does not. I dont store my ammo under water so I dont really mind not having a sealed primer. In an ammo can it will last for years and years even without the selaed primer.

If accuracy was your primary concern I would handload as it will smoke either of those rounds. If you want factory ammo for a carbine for its improved terminal performance that just so happens to be match grade accurate the smart money is spent on the 5.56 TAP IMO.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 3:39:45 PM EDT
Thanks. I currently shoot the Hornady 5.56 75 Grain TAP, but I was just curious as to the accuracy. I can get some MK 262 Mod 1 for work, but if the accuracy is similar, I don't plan on switching, especially when Hornady has the Practice ammo I can buy for so cheap. I just posted this post, because nobody ever talks about the Mk 262.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 3:59:26 PM EDT
And where exactly do you get 5.56 75Gr TAP so cheap form? I was under the impression that it was LEO only. Unless you are LEO.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 4:10:26 PM EDT
Yes, I am LEO in NJ. I order directly from Hornady. $110 for 200 rounds of the TAP and I think I paid $110 for 500 rounds of the 75 grain practice ammo, which is .223.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:11:06 PM EDT
The 77gr SMK is better suited for precision fire.

But only a benchrest shooter would notice the difference.

Im not a very good shot, but I can easily squeeze 1 MOA @ 100yds using the cannelured Hornady.

Make no mistake Hornady 75gr is match grade ammo.

Stick with the TAP.

Mk262 isnt as wonderful as all of the hype would lead you to believe.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:03:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
The 77gr SMK is better suited for precision fire.

But only a benchrest shooter would notice the difference.

Im not a very good shot, but I can easily squeeze 1 MOA @ 100yds using the cannelured Hornady.

Make no mistake Hornady 75gr is match grade ammo.

Stick with the TAP.

Mk262 isnt as wonderful as all of the hype would lead you to believe.



Personally, I don't ever recall anyone "hyping" MK262 to be some Magic round. It is however the best GI issue ammo being used as an anti personelle ammo, Period. No questions asked. No doubt about it that the TAP has an edge but us lowly civilians can't get it. We can get the MK262 seconds from black hills so forgive us for having some enthusiasm about it. And the Black hills blue loadings are terrific too and they have been touted as such many times on here. Why there is this anti MK262 sentiment, is beyond me. Maybe we should just shut are traps and stick with M193, ha? That would be nice if you could get it like you used to.

paulosantos, the funny thing is he's talking about Mk262 being hyped and you're saying it's "never" talked about. It has been mentioned many times in this forum in the last 2 months alone.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:09:41 PM EDT
Personally, I don't ever recall anyone "hyping" MK262 to be some Magic round. It is however the best GI issue ammo being used as an anti personelle ammo, Period. No questions asked. No doubt about it that the TAP has an edge but us lowly civilians can't get it. We can get the MK262 seconds from black hills so forgive us for having some enthusiasm about it. And the Black hills blue loadings are terrific too and they have been touted as such many times on here. Why there is this anti MK262 sentiment, is beyond me. Maybe we should just shut are traps and stick with M193, ha? That would be nice if you could get it like you used to.

paulosantos, the funny thing is he's talking about Mk262 being hyped and you're saying it's "never" talked about. It has been mentioned many times in this forum in the last 2 months alone.

It just seems to me that every other post is about the Hornady and not the Black Hills. I like both, but I shoot Hornady becasue they make it easier for me to get and because of the Practice ammo.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:07:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 11:35:38 PM EDT by Vapor-Trail]

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
The 77gr SMK is better suited for precision fire.

But only a benchrest shooter would notice the difference.

Im not a very good shot, but I can easily squeeze 1 MOA @ 100yds using the cannelured Hornady.

Make no mistake Hornady 75gr is match grade ammo.

Stick with the TAP.

Mk262 isnt as wonderful as all of the hype would lead you to believe.



Personally, I don't ever recall anyone "hyping" MK262 to be some Magic round. It is however the best GI issue ammo being used as an anti personelle ammo, Period. No questions asked. No doubt about it that the TAP has an edge but us lowly civilians can't get it. We can get the MK262 seconds from black hills so forgive us for having some enthusiasm about it. And the Black hills blue loadings are terrific too and they have been touted as such many times on here. Why there is this anti MK262 sentiment, is beyond me. Maybe we should just shut are traps and stick with M193, ha? That would be nice if you could get it like you used to.

paulosantos, the funny thing is he's talking about Mk262 being hyped and you're saying it's "never" talked about. It has been mentioned many times in this forum in the last 2 months alone.



Dont misunderstand me.

I feel that the Mk262 is an excellent cartridge.

Seeing as I am no longer in the military, I guess Im included in your "lowly civilian" category.

Right now, I am holding in my hands three different publications proclaiming the MK262 to be a miracle round.( I didnt say that the hype was on this website)

So yes there is quite a bit of hype behind this cartridge.

Little do the people who read these articles know that there are other bullets by other manufacturers that have improved fragmentation performance over the sierra match king.

Right now the 75gr whether by black hills or hornady is the only factory loaded ammo available that offers optimal fragmentation performance.

Im not quite sure what part of my post struck a nerve with you, but whatever it was I apologize.

Calvin

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:30:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
The 77gr SMK is better suited for precision fire.

But only a benchrest shooter would notice the difference.

Im not a very good shot, but I can easily squeeze 1 MOA @ 100yds using the cannelured Hornady.

Make no mistake Hornady 75gr is match grade ammo.

Stick with the TAP.

Mk262 isnt as wonderful as all of the hype would lead you to believe.



Personally, I don't ever recall anyone "hyping" MK262 to be some Magic round. It is however the best GI issue ammo being used as an anti personelle ammo, Period. No questions asked. No doubt about it that the TAP has an edge but us lowly civilians can't get it. We can get the MK262 seconds from black hills so forgive us for having some enthusiasm about it. And the Black hills blue loadings are terrific too and they have been touted as such many times on here. Why there is this anti MK262 sentiment, is beyond me. Maybe we should just shut are traps and stick with M193, ha? That would be nice if you could get it like you used to.

paulosantos, the funny thing is he's talking about Mk262 being hyped and you're saying it's "never" talked about. It has been mentioned many times in this forum in the last 2 months alone.



Dont misunderstand me.

I feel that the Mk262 is an excellent cartridge.

Seeing as I am no longer in the military, I guess Im included in your "lowly civilian" category.

Right now, I am holding in my hands three different publications proclaiming the MK262 to be a miracle round.( I didnt say that the hype was on this website)

So yes there is quite a bit of hype behind this cartridge.

Little do the people who read these articles know that there are other bullets by other manufacturers that have improved fragmentation performance over the sierra match king.Right now the 75gr whether by black hills or hornady is the only factory loaded ammo available that offers optimal fragmentation performance.

Im not quite sure what part of my post struck a nerve with you, but whatever it was I apoligize.

Calvin




which ones??
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:26:11 PM EDT
The 77gr grain Nosler BTHP (with or without cannelure) and of couse the 75gr hornady BTHP. The best performers are the 80, 87, and 100gr bullets which have minimal neck lengths.

The problem with the SMK is that it must pass through excessive amounts of tissue before it begins to fragment. If the shot is poorly placed (such as a hit to the extremities) or if the person who is shot has a thin torso the bullet may completely pass through begining to fragment only before exiting with minimal damage major organs and blood vessels.

Usually this is not a problem because the individuals using this particular ammunition are quite capable of making well placed shots and no one is ever really hit dead on from the front anyway.

The point being that the SMK does not offer the best fragmentation performance.

Unfortunately at this time the Hornady bullet is the only optimal performer in the list above that is loaded in factory ammunition.

This problem would be easy to fix if ammunition manufacturers were motivated to do so.

In the meantime I suggest handloading your own ammo for self defense.

Thats what Im doing (using the hornady and nosler bullets).

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:17:53 AM EDT
Alright I get you. Although I do agree that it has a long neck, I don't know if there have been alot of instances where it's going right through BG's without fragmenting. I think you might be overstating the the lack of effectiveness of the SMK. I know th hornady and nosler do better but like I said before MK262 is the best USGI issue. Tangochaser (I believe it was him) commented on how he used to have to shoot dogs in Iraq and he said they worked alot better on dogs than the M855. And I don't think a dog is all that thick through the midsection, which is why I brought it up. But he did say they'd fragment. And I believe that to be the case in most after action reports, although I don't think I've ever seen anything official.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:22:35 AM EDT
I remember last Summer when everyone was calling me a liar about even the existence of 5.56mm 75gr TAP. Now, it's the miracle round that everyone is after...too funny.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:26:50 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:47:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 7:49:53 AM EDT by wyv3rn]

Originally Posted By SOSNBA:
I remember last Summer when everyone was calling me a liar about even the existence of 5.56mm 75gr TAP. Now, it's the miracle round that everyone is after...too funny.



They are morons. Hornady TAP 75gr in 5.56mm pressure has existed long before you made your first post here (I remember it). I also remember a time when 1/9 twist was the most popular, no one wanted 1/7 because it would "wear out a barrel faster" and 16" barrels were a "bastardized" civilian length. How times have changed...
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:02:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SOSNBA:
I remember last Summer when everyone was calling me a liar about even the existence of 5.56mm 75gr TAP. Now, it's the miracle round that everyone is after...too funny.



Yeap! I remember when someone was trying to call you out as a BS artist.


He has posted in this thread as to the wonders of that which he said didn't exsist.


I find it funny too..............................
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:32:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 9:35:34 AM EDT by FMJ]
VAPOR- TRAIL


What I find funny IS

THAT SIERRA RECOMMENDS THE 77gr SMK FOR TAGET SHOOTING ONLY!!!!!!

MIDWAY CATALOG 2006 PAGE 127

If you cant get the 5.56mm loadings then just go for the 223 loadings!

I dont know whats the Big deal?

I like the Black Hills Blue Box 75gr for under 20 bucks or so a Box!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:09:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJ:
VAPOR- TRAIL

What I find funny IS

THAT SIERRA RECOMMENDS THE 77gr SMK FOR TAGET SHOOTING ONLY!!!!!!

MIDWAY CATALOG 2006 PAGE 127



I read the same thing and I was even told that when I spoke with different people when I was trying to figure out what ammunition I should get for my rifle. That confused the crap out of me. I was even told that the OTM bullets mushroomed out like the Soft Point ones.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:11:53 AM EDT
Big deal to me is I use a 10.5 inch barrel and I feel like I would benefit from the extra speed. I also feel that it makes the rifle more reliable by sticking to NATO has pressures. Since I fret over barrel length, it is annoying to lose speed based on not loading to full NATO pressure.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:43:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Big deal to me is I use a 10.5 inch barrel and I feel like I would benefit from the extra speed. I also feel that it makes the rifle more reliable by sticking to NATO has pressures. Since I fret over barrel length, it is annoying to lose speed based on not loading to full NATO pressure.




The 5.56mm pressure 75gr can be had if you pay the price! If you look hard you will find some.
I just saw a post last week a guy wanted to sell some?

If you a really worried about FPS might try a longer barrel than the 10.5? like a LW 16 or M4 14.5

But I will admitt I like the 10.5 and think its a better choice for in home shooting
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:44:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Big deal to me is I use a 10.5 inch barrel and I feel like I would benefit from the extra speed. I also feel that it makes the rifle more reliable by sticking to NATO has pressures. Since I fret over barrel length, it is annoying to lose speed based on not loading to full NATO pressure.



If you can't get the 5.56 75 Grain TAP, wouldn't a soft point point bullet, like the Winchester 64 Grain Power Point or the Federal 64 Grain Soft Point be the next best choice? This way you don't have to worry about fragmentation.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:54:51 AM EDT
I think Im going to buy some of the Win Power Points I think they also come in 5.56mm? not for sure?
Or Im going to try Speers bear Claw
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:03:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 12:04:21 PM EDT by wyv3rn]

Originally Posted By paulosantos:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Big deal to me is I use a 10.5 inch barrel and I feel like I would benefit from the extra speed. I also feel that it makes the rifle more reliable by sticking to NATO has pressures. Since I fret over barrel length, it is annoying to lose speed based on not loading to full NATO pressure.



If you can't get the 5.56 75 Grain TAP, wouldn't a soft point point bullet, like the Winchester 64 Grain Power Point or the Federal 64 Grain Soft Point be the next best choice? This way you don't have to worry about fragmentation.



For terminal ballistics, .223 pressure TAP 75gr would still be better for across-the-room distances, but not much further than that. It is also more reliable as it feeds better.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:34:28 PM EDT
I actually called Hornady and talked to a non LE sales rep and was told there waqs no such thing as 5.56 75 grain TAP at one point. I called the LE division and was told it did not exist because the female who normally handles LE sales was off and soeone filling in for her and they said it did not exist. It is not incocevable that people would not believe it existed if they had not seen it.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:02:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 2:14:55 PM EDT by Harp]
Lowly civilians can buy TAP all day long-they are not LEO only. Go to the following link:TAP Ammo

I don't know where these LEO-only rumors start, but they are tiresome. Jeez, what does everyone think they are made of, plutonium and C-4 with a tungsten penetrator?

Harp
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:09:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harp:
PaulSantos,
Lowly civilians can buy TAP all day long-they are not LEO only. Go to the following link:TAP Ammo

I don't know where these LEO-only rumors start, but they are tiresome. Jeez, what does everyone think they are made of, plutonium and C-4 with a tungsten penetrator?

Harp




That is .223 SAMMI loads. We are talkin' 5.56MM NATO loads. LEO ONLY!



Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:10:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By paulosantos:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Big deal to me is I use a 10.5 inch barrel and I feel like I would benefit from the extra speed. I also feel that it makes the rifle more reliable by sticking to NATO has pressures. Since I fret over barrel length, it is annoying to lose speed based on not loading to full NATO pressure.



If you can't get the 5.56 75 Grain TAP, wouldn't a soft point point bullet, like the Winchester 64 Grain Power Point or the Federal 64 Grain Soft Point be the next best choice? This way you don't have to worry about fragmentation.



Expanding bullet designs such as the Winchester Power Point are vastly inferior to 70+gr match bullets.

While they are a much better choice than a bullet that does not either fragment or expand, the maximum tissue destruction caused by these bullets will only be the small crush cavity created by the bullet as it passes through tissue, which will be no wider than the diameter of the expanding bullet.

As FMJ mentioned above, none of the 70+gr match bullets were designed to fragment. Thier thin jackets and front loaded cores just happen to do so, and do so very well at lower velocities . Fragments from these bullets deviate from the main wound path and increase the probability of damage to critical tissues such as nerves and blood vessels.

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:17:56 PM EDT
Spooge,
Thanks for the clarification! I stand corrected!

Harp
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:43:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:

Originally Posted By paulosantos:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Big deal to me is I use a 10.5 inch barrel and I feel like I would benefit from the extra speed. I also feel that it makes the rifle more reliable by sticking to NATO has pressures. Since I fret over barrel length, it is annoying to lose speed based on not loading to full NATO pressure.



If you can't get the 5.56 75 Grain TAP, wouldn't a soft point point bullet, like the Winchester 64 Grain Power Point or the Federal 64 Grain Soft Point be the next best choice? This way you don't have to worry about fragmentation.



Expanding bullet designs such as the Winchester Power Point are vastly inferior to 70+gr match bullets.

While they are a much better choice than a bullet that does not either fragment or expand, the maximum tissue destruction caused by these bullets will only be the small crush cavity created by the bullet as it passes through tissue, which will be no wider than the diameter of the expanding bullet.

As FMJ mentioned above, none of the 70+gr match bullets were designed to fragment. Thier thin jackets and front loaded cores just happen to do so, and do so very well at lower velocities . Fragments from these bullets deviate from the main wound path and increase the probability of damage to critical tissues such as nerves and blood vessels.




Got it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:08:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

Originally Posted By Harp:
PaulSantos,
Lowly civilians can buy TAP all day long-they are not LEO only. Go to the following link:TAP Ammo

I don't know where these LEO-only rumors start, but they are tiresome. Jeez, what does everyone think they are made of, plutonium and C-4 with a tungsten penetrator?

Harp




That is .223 SAMMI loads. We are talkin' 5.56MM NATO loads. LEO ONLY!

img228.imageshack.us/img228/5739/dsc000180lg.jpg





IS THAT YOUR STASH?

I got 7 mags of Blue Box 75gr for my SHTF or Tropical Storm

rest of it is Q3131/Q3131A/XM193/IMIm855/etc
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:28:32 AM EDT
oh great, another ammo topic.............

Brought to you by "the blind leading the blind", folks that can't their butt with either hand and those who cannot bother to read the TACKED threads or any of the plethra of 75 vs 77 topics posted in the last few months.



Mike
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:33:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 1:01:25 PM EDT by Spooge5150]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
oh great, another ammo topic.............

Brought to you by "the blind leading the blind", folks that can't their butt with either hand and those who cannot bother to read the TACKED threads or any of the plethra of 75 vs 77 topics posted in the last few months.



Mike



Can't what? with their butt?

Another ammo topic in the....... OMG! Say it isn't so! Ammo forum. Gee go figure.

Mike,
I'm sure you think all the new "to this board" guys should know as much as you about the tacked threads.

Cut them some slack. They need our and your input. Input that is informative and helpful. Not the kind that comes off as a board nazi. Remember this is the Avila house and we are all guests. This is also a meeting place to have conversations. Like at a bar.


Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:06:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:38:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By paulosantos:
Yes, I am LEO in NJ. I order directly from Hornady. $110 for 200 rounds of the TAP and I think I paid $110 for 500 rounds of the 75 grain practice ammo, which is .223.



Daamn, that's pretty good.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:05:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
oh great, another ammo topic.............

Brought to you by "the blind leading the blind", folks that can't their butt with either hand and those who cannot bother to read the TACKED threads or any of the plethra of 75 vs 77 topics posted in the last few months.



Mike



Chill out. We all read the tacked ammo threads. So what if we talk about the same thing over and over. Maybe we just want to chat. Maybe we are just bored. If you don't like what we post, then read something else. I shoot the 5.56 75 Grain TAP, period. As far as I know it is the best one out right now. If I want to compare it with other ammo, then I think I can.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:08:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
oh great, another ammo topic.............

Brought to you by "the blind leading the blind", folks that can't their butt with either hand and those who cannot bother to read the TACKED threads or any of the plethra of 75 vs 77 topics posted in the last few months.



Mike



Can't what? with their butt?

Another ammo topic in the....... OMG! Say it isn't so! Ammo forum. Gee go figure.

Mike,
I'm sure you think all the new "to this board" guys should know as much as you about the tacked threads.

Cut them some slack. They need our and your input. Input that is informative and helpful. Not the kind that comes off as a board nazi. Remember this is the Avila house and we are all guests. This is also a meeting place to have conversations. Like at a bar.





+1, Amen, etc.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:46:35 PM EDT
Gee, agencies around here have always had pretty good terminal peformance with the Win 64 gr JSP (RA223R2) over the past 15 years or so, including the several OIS incidents the last couple of months--all concluded with one shot of 64 gr JSP to the torso...
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:11:59 AM EDT
Like I said I think I will buy some win PP or Bear Claw type!!

to add to my SHTF / TROPICAL STORM AMMO ! need deep penetration

incase someone lets all the animals at the ZOO loose

AND I STILL THINK ITS FUNNY SIERRA STATES SMK ONLY FOR TARGET SHOOTING
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:03:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DocGKR:
Gee, agencies around here have always had pretty good terminal peformance with the Win 64 gr JSP (RA223R2) over the past 15 years or so, including the several OIS incidents the last couple of months--all concluded with one shot of 64 gr JSP to the torso...



How accurate are those?
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