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Posted: 3/23/2006 7:34:00 PM EDT
Anyone can assemble plenty of softpoints into theirhandloads. So why worry about a short barrel's not delivering 2700 fps? A 60 gr Nosler Partition still expands just fine at 1800 fps (in varmints). Flesh and blood is flesh and blood, when it comes to bullet performance. Even the 14" barreled M4 starts a 60 gr bullet at 2800 fps if it's loaded to NATO 5.56 specs. Such a bullet still has 2000 fps and 530 ft lbs left at 250 yds. That's plenty far enough "reach", and the same power as a 4" barreled 357 revolver has at 7 yds. That 357 is well known to work just fine for stopping men, so the M4 will do so also.

Beyond 250 yds, nobody needs an instant stop of the man, because he will have plenty of time to bleed out (while he tries to run 200 yds and fire bursts or throw grenades. LOL. You are not going to be riding your bike out to scalp him, 30 seconds after you shoot him, right? So why would you care if he's able to flop around a bit, after you hit him with a non-expanding 223 bullet, at longer ranges? A 223, even a shorty 223, has plenty of power where that power is needed (ie, inside 200 yds), if you just know enough to use soft or hollowpoint bullets in it.

Not one reader in 1000 is in the military, in a combat zone, unable to get softpoint bullets for his 223. So why is there so much discussion of "needing" to have the fmj bullet tumble and fragment? It's simply not true, for 999 out of 1000 users of the 223.
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Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:41:35 PM EDT
Because surplus ammo is less expensive so more money may be alloted for a SHTF ammo stash.

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:50:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:56:31 PM EDT
FMJ is also the most reliable in terms of feeding.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:58:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 8:00:34 PM EDT by unusual]
Missing a lot is not the answer. If you are hitting like you should be, you don't need lots of ammo. Since the advent of the autorifle, we've never fought anybody the equal of the Germans in WW2. All we've fought has been ignorant peasants, with nothing but AK's. If shtf, you'll have to do much better than one hit in 10 shots, or you won't make it. If you hit with 10% of your shots, you won't need anything like 1000 rds. Anyone who can't assemble 1000 rds of softpoint reloads doesn't shoot a 223 enough to be worth a hoot as a rifleman. You're only talking $200 or less of components, and a long day's work, even with just a single station reloading press.

Soft or hollowpoints are plenty reliable enough. It is a bottlenecked case, after all. I'll take a 1 in 1000 chance of a mis feed, over a 1 in 5-10 chance that fmj ammo won't stop the man I have to shoot with it.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:01:51 PM EDT
Most bang for the buck.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:04:11 PM EDT
an sks or 22lr is the most bang for the buck. What's another $100 spent on ammo, if it's shtf, ferchrissakes? You won't be doing any practicing, when every shot you fire is likely to attract the attention of someone who'd like to kill you and take your stuff.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:09:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 8:23:36 PM EDT by VAhunter]
Originally Posted By unusual:
All we've fought has been ignorant peasants, with nothing but AK's.


I'd submit to you that a 7.62 shot from an AK, or anything else, would still really ruin your day. Furthermore, AK's have done pretty damn well in the hands of "ignorant peasants." Lastly, it's that kind of attitude -- underestimating others -- that has led to lots of military problems since ze Germans.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:11:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
FMJ is also the most reliable in terms of feeding.



Yep!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:12:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VAhunter:
All we've fought has been ignorant peasants, with nothing but AK's.

I'd submit to you that a 7.62 shot from an AK, or anything else, would still really ruin your day. Furthermore, AK's have done pretty damn well in the hands of "ignorant peasants." Lastly, it's that kind of attitude -- underestimating others -- that has led to lots of military problems since ze Germans.



Some of those "ignorant peasantd" are competent shooters.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:18:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Missing a lot is not the answer. If you are hitting like you should be, you don't need lots of ammo. Since the advent of the autorifle, we've never fought anybody the equal of the Germans in WW2. All we've fought has been ignorant peasants, with nothing but AK's. If shtf, you'll have to do much better than one hit in 10 shots, or you won't make it. If you hit with 10% of your shots, you won't need anything like 1000 rds. Anyone who can't assemble 1000 rds of softpoint reloads doesn't shoot a 223 enough to be worth a hoot as a rifleman. You're only talking $200 or less of components, and a long day's work, even with just a single station reloading press.

Soft or hollowpoints are plenty reliable enough. It is a bottlenecked case, after all. I'll take a 1 in 1000 chance of a mis feed, over a 1 in 5-10 chance that fmj ammo won't stop the man I have to shoot with it.



you can get 1000 rounds of FMJ for around 200 bucks and it only takes 5 min to order it not a whole day
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:22:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Missing a lot is not the answer. If you are hitting like you should be, you don't need lots of ammo. Since the advent of the autorifle, we've never fought anybody the equal of the Germans in WW2. All we've fought has been ignorant peasants, with nothing but AK's. If shtf, you'll have to do much better than one hit in 10 shots, or you won't make it. If you hit with 10% of your shots, you won't need anything like 1000 rds. Anyone who can't assemble 1000 rds of softpoint reloads doesn't shoot a 223 enough to be worth a hoot as a rifleman. You're only talking $200 or less of components, and a long day's work, even with just a single station reloading press.

Soft or hollowpoints are plenty reliable enough. It is a bottlenecked case, after all. I'll take a 1 in 1000 chance of a mis feed, over a 1 in 5-10 chance that fmj ammo won't stop the man I have to shoot with it.



What the hell are you talking about?

Who said anything about missing?

With no idea what, if any, SHTF scenario may come to pass, how can anyone determine the amount of ammo that would be required. You may have to take into account supplying others (invasion), barter (economic breakdown), defense and hunting (long term total SHTF). And what if your 1000 rounds is stolen?

But, I'm sure there will be misses. Do you think that you will be able to hit with at least one out of ten of your shots while retreating and taking fire? What about suppressing fire? Like I said, No one has any idea what type of trouble may be down the pike.

*Not everyone reloads. How does that equate with them being a rifleman?

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:44:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
an sks or 22lr is the most bang for the buck. What's another $100 spent on ammo, if it's shtf, ferchrissakes? You won't be doing any practicing, when every shot you fire is likely to attract the attention of someone who'd like to kill you and take your stuff.



I was referring to 5.56, just like you were. xm193, q3131, et al, are fairly inexpensive, and offer a decent degree of performance, performance on par to many SP's, or better when reliability is taken into consideration.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:49:55 PM EDT
1. Softpoints are not cost-effective, esp for unknown shtf scenarios
2. Proper frag fmj works as well or better than soft points
3. FMJ has the most reliable feeding, and in shtf, reliability is king
4. FMJ is the most durable for shtf
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:59:11 PM EDT
How about the sealing, crimping and higher pressure of military rounds?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:08:38 PM EDT
I'm not trying to start a war here, but I really have no idea what you're talking about. Why does it matter?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:12:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Missing a lot is not the answer. If you are hitting like you should be, you don't need lots of ammo. Since the advent of the autorifle, we've never fought anybody the equal of the Germans in WW2. All we've fought has been ignorant peasants, with nothing but AK's. If shtf, you'll have to do much better than one hit in 10 shots, or you won't make it. If you hit with 10% of your shots, you won't need anything like 1000 rds. Anyone who can't assemble 1000 rds of softpoint reloads doesn't shoot a 223 enough to be worth a hoot as a rifleman. You're only talking $200 or less of components, and a long day's work, even with just a single station reloading press.

Soft or hollowpoints are plenty reliable enough. It is a bottlenecked case, after all. I'll take a 1 in 1000 chance of a mis feed, over a 1 in 5-10 chance that fmj ammo won't stop the man I have to shoot with it.



Ignorant peasants with nothing but AKs huh? What recent conflict have you fought in? Obviously, none.

It sounds like you have a very specific SHTF scenario in mind with these simple answers to everything. Maybe you should give us the details so we're not in the dark and making up our own?

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:18:05 PM EDT
I will agree that civilian shooters should look at all of their options and choose the round that makes the most sense for their circumstances.

Personally, I use UMC 45g JHP for my in-house defensive shooting needs. Out of a 1/7" bbl, the light-weight round will do damage to the bad guy, but is less likely to over penetrate and endanger others. The same could be said for that 50g USGI frangible that Ammoman is selling - though I've never tried it.

For exterior shots, and barrier penetration, I'm all for milspec FMJBT. Or, ballistic tip loads. Let's face it, a mag or two of top-quality hunting ammo isn't that expensive and could make the difference.

For SHTF scenarios, buy what you like. I can see stockpiling ammo against future price hikes, but I don't reallly worry about having something to repel the hordes. Of course, if I could afford to buy more.....

The best of both worlds would be to find a surplus ammo that approximates the POI/POA of your hunting round. Train with the cheap stuff, stock it deep, and use that expensive ammo for immediate defense of life and honor.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:33:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
<snip>You are not going to be riding your bike out to scalp him, 30 seconds after you shoot him, right?<snip>





That's funny. I don't care who you are.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:34:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VaughnT:
I will agree that civilian shooters should look at all of their options and choose the round that makes the most sense for their circumstances.

Personally, I use UMC 45g JHP for my in-house defensive shooting needs. Out of a 1/7" bbl, the light-weight round will do damage to the bad guy, but is less likely to over penetrate and endanger others. The same could be said for that 50g USGI frangible that Ammoman is selling - though I've never tried it.

For exterior shots, and barrier penetration, I'm all for milspec FMJBT. Or, ballistic tip loads. Let's face it, a mag or two of top-quality hunting ammo isn't that expensive and could make the difference.

For SHTF scenarios, buy what you like. I can see stockpiling ammo against future price hikes, but I don't reallly worry about having something to repel the hordes. Of course, if I could afford to buy more.....

The best of both worlds would be to find a surplus ammo that approximates the POI/POA of your hunting round. Train with the cheap stuff, stock it deep, and use that expensive ammo for immediate defense of life and honor.




I'm not very experienced in the ammo arena but don't you think the 45 grainers are a bit light? They were designed for animals that weigh a fraction of what you might run across in an HD situation. The question is will that varmint round penetrate enough through clothing to do enough damage to stop someone intent on killing/raping/robbing you?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:39:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 10:02:25 PM EDT by thedoctors308]
Will soft points penetrate armor like FMJ will?
ETA: Kind of a rhetorical question.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:49:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:08:06 PM EDT
Most everyone here likes Hornady TAP rounds, I suppose those can be hand loaded to as high a velocity as any military ammo is. I have not shot any TAP, but the profile looks a lot like FMJ, how does it feed for those of you that have shot it?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:38:24 AM EDT
SHIT HIT THE FAN could mean alot of things like one thug or a WHOLE army from some third world country invading are shores. I have cases of ammo for the BSHTF (Big Shit Hit The Fan). I have one mag loaded with NBT ammo for the THUGS. If a army was coming here to invade us well U would know ( you would here fighters hauling ass to the coast) and have time to load up.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:03:01 AM EDT
+1 on the Nosler ballstic tips, the ones in the .308" range are amazing
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:14:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 6:18:31 AM EDT by Face_N_The_Crowd]
Unusal - I kinda see where you are coming from - but me personally I don't waste my time reloading anything other than 77 grn SMKs w/ 24.1 of RE15. Me myself and I - I see the value of a 5.56 only for 200 yrds and less or unknown issues and lots of travel to keep the weight down. Anything other than that, it will be a 7.62 in 175 SMK or 210 VLDs. As for lightweight softpoints - personally I'll pass.

Having said that, I always have a couple thousand rounds of FMJ for both 5.56 and 7.62 around.

Good luck
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:21:39 AM EDT
I reload ALOT, but I've shot with some guys who don't and they are excellent riflemen. Reloading is great, but if you practice it really doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:46:03 AM EDT
In a 5.56mm round, a properly fragmenting round has a vastly more devastating effect on tissue than soft- and hollow-points have. I'm pretty sure this is extensively covered in the 5.56 FAQ/Ammo oracle or whatever it was called.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:16:27 PM EDT
Sounds like GunKid to me.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:32:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 4:33:02 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:33:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:36:54 PM EDT
Why FMJ's are king around here?

Because it's MILSPEC COLT approved
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:33:17 PM EDT
M4tuna! Oh fortuna! Carmina Burana, right?

Speling is underrated.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:40:36 PM EDT
OGNTSA
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:30:55 PM EDT
I have my "home defense" mag loaded alternating with Winchester power points. The heavy .223 soft point will really plow through the shoulder of a deer, so I guess it would suitable on a dirtbag. The STHF is all Q3131. Sealed primers and bullets along with NATO pressure loads is king.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:42:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unusual:
Anyone who can't assemble 1000 rds of softpoint reloads doesn't shoot a 223 enough to be worth a hoot as a rifleman.



Anyone who thinks cartridge reloading is a good criteria for a rifleman needs to have their brains and b@lls examined.

Corrective action:

1. Step away from the shooting bench

2. Take this class www.tacticalresponse.com/courses/fightingrifle.php

3. Take this class www.tacticalresponse.com/courses/advancedfightingrifle.php

4. Take this class www.tacticalresponse.com/courses/skillsprep.php

5. Take this class www.tacticalresponse.com/courses/contractorshooting.php

Then get back to us.


Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:49:25 PM EDT
If Winchester made the 64 Grain Power point at a reasonable price, it would be worth it, but when it costs almost 3 times more than the FMJ,s and even more expensive than the 5.56 Hornady 75 Grain TAP, it is not worth it. That and the feeding issue is a reason that FMJ's are more popular.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:54:01 PM EDT
What?



This thread is pointless.



Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:02:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
FMJ is also the most reliable in terms of feeding.



Unusual Member, I think you may be missing the point. For human targets, 5.56 is a poor choice if you are planning to rely on conventional bullet expansion to do the job. With 5.56 and humans, you don't want expansion. You do however want yawing and fragmentation. If you can reliably get that effect then 5.56 is a devastating round. If you can't (and you won't with soft point ammo), all you have is a very expensive high velocity .22.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:15:04 PM EDT
Hmm, no rebuttel from the OP?

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:28:24 PM EDT
Too many armchair commandos on this thread! I would love a forum on this site devoted to those who have actually "seen action" so we could pick their brains about ammunition in combat situations.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:27:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:35:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 8:37:33 PM EDT by Tromatic]

Originally Posted By GRB:
Too many armchair commandos on this thread! I would love a forum on this site devoted to those who have actually "seen action" so we could pick their brains about ammunition in combat situations.



Yeah, but most of them have little time to gut the dude and find out how the round performed. That's why things like the Oracle and all the FBI testing methods are the only verifiable and repeatable ways to test ammo performance.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:38:55 PM EDT
Why do guys act like fmj ammo is end-all for shtf?
Because it is.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:43:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GRB:
Too many armchair commandos on this thread! I would love a forum on this site devoted to those who have actually "seen action" so we could pick their brains about ammunition in combat situations.



You think just becasue someone was/is in the military or seen combat, they know as much about ammo as anyone else? I was in the Military and I didn't know shit until I got out. I am now in LE and I learned what I know about ammo and weapons from LE.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:56:03 AM EDT
Where I live the temperature varies dramatically and medium sized game often has a thick coat of fur or an insulated parka. Bullet selection is everything which is why I have both a 1:9 and 1:7 spread in my AR's.

I can think of a number of possible scenarios where maximum penetration would be preffered...and another number of scenarios where it wouldn't be.

But wtf do I know...my mailbox is 120 feet away...that's the line in my sandbox. Anything beyond that is evasive in my book.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:27:14 AM EDT
I like to have both. I feel more confortable with the soft points if they are really accurate in my rifles. I like to be able to hit exactly where I want. Many of the military ammo like Q3131 shoots pretty inconsistantly as far as accuracy in my rifles. The Fed (Lake City) is much better but I still prefer really accurate rounds and a weapon that will hit same place over and over with same ammo.
The varminter although not as practicle as my 16 inch if I have to leave my domain is what I would grab first if I had to protect my home and family. I know where it will hit and can count on it hitting same place with the zeroed ammo almost everytime. At short distance less than 30 yard it probably doesn't matter much at all.
JR
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:49:04 AM EDT
As far as I can tell, any SHTF situation will NOT be anything at all like "manuvering with the squad, back in the Army." This is important. If you're trying to get yourself and your family into a safe location from an unsafe location with Bad Guys in the way, YOU are all the firesupport you can expect. That means NOBODY providing covering fire, NOBODY providing distraction/deception actions, etc. MILITARY tactics call for expending a LOT of ammunition just to make the opposing military force keep their heads down or move in a militarily logical direction.

The fact that we have a history of military units expending thousands of rounds per actual wound inflicted has nothing to do with opposing an armed group of thugs/zombies/rioters/etc. Bad guys who you're likely to face are NOT going to be disciplined even as well as those Somali thugs (who had years of experience in screwing over villagers and could expect to be shot if they disobeyed orders) in Mogadishu.

Any "military invasion" scenario is a completely different thing, but the more likely (or really, "less unlikely" situations are breakdown of civil order on the scale of probably no more than two weeks (which was far longer than the ACTUAL breakdown in the New Orleans area).

This comes out to meaning that you do not need 10,000 rounds of anything, and having a shotgun and handgun in the mix make a lot of sense. Which ammo to use? What works reliably and hits where your sights are set is the best answer. And practice, practice, PRACTICE.

Rant over. Go back to your lives, citizens.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:50:30 AM EDT
I'm not a SHTFer, I shoot FMJ because it's cheap and because it's what I have to use in any 'real world' situation (Army... You can shoot any round you want so long as it's M855... In the unlikely event your 'SHTF' happens, I will be (a) working, and (b) at no loss for ammo)....

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:21:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:


This comes out to meaning that you do not need 10,000 rounds of anything

Yeah but when your friends come over to take a look at the full ammo cans stacked up in your closet you are amost elevated to a godlike status.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:54:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By the_end:

Originally Posted By unusual:
Anyone who can't assemble 1000 rds of softpoint reloads doesn't shoot a 223 enough to be worth a hoot as a rifleman. You're only talking $200 or less of components, and a long day's work, even with just a single station reloading press.







Thanks for getting some guys off my back!


You can save more money buying surrplus rather buying all the reloading TOOLs etc!

I use to reload Handgun ammo only with my Little Square Deal!

Im thinking of reloading the 223 because of the 77/75gr. Bullets are popular Now in the in crowd.

I can handle a RIFLE or CAR!


Also I do think Soft Points that dont lbreak up are a great idea it just DEPENDS on what you encounter?

I do like your first post
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