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Posted: 3/22/2006 2:30:35 PM EDT
I asked this question a few weeks ago, but it was never really answered. (I will rephrase the question this time. ) In what loading/grain bullet did the Canadians manufacture 5.56 military ammo for their military? I have surplus IVI ammo dated 1971 and wondered if it is SS109/62grain, or is it a smaller bullet like M193? any feed-back would be apprechiated, thanks!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:42:57 PM EDT
It will be 55gr. That's all that was known to exist back then.

IVI supposed to be good ammo, though what you have is a bit old...
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:07:11 PM EDT
I bought about 700 +rds from a friend about 12yrs ago. It has been stored in 50 cal cans before I got it and I stored it the same way. It came in 7 72rd boxes and about 200rds loose. The stuff is bright and shiny and the boxes are perfect.(looks like it was made yesterday.) I have heard that the 80's ivi is supposed to have weak brass cases that leave marks in rifle chambers after firing.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 4:29:08 PM EDT
Don't worry if it's manufactured in '71. I have WCC 76-78 as well as LC and GE ammo. They still fire. My friend even has 50's LC in 30-08 he feeds his Garand. No failures.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:09:10 AM EDT
Actually, around 1970 5.56 bullet weights ranged from 55-77grains. The Canaidians tested a IVI 68grn FMJ, this ammo was also produced for private sale. 77grn FMJ's were tested by the American govt for the Stoner 63 as a 5.56 SAW is extremely limited by M193, at least compared to a 7.62 LMG. The larger 5.56 rounds from this period are somewhat rare, but I bought 100 round Stoner box linked with 77grn FMJ's around 5 years ago from a surplus dealer. Its probably 55grn M193 spec or similar, but I would have to actually examine it or see a picture. 77grn 5.56 bullets are far from a "new" phenomenon.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:16:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
Actually, around 1970 5.56 bullet weights ranged from 55-77grains. The Canaidians tested a IVI 68grn FMJ, this ammo was also produced for private sale. 77grn FMJ's were tested by the American govt for the Stoner 63 as a 5.56 SAW is extremely limited by M193, at least compared to a 7.62 LMG. The larger 5.56 rounds from this period are somewhat rare, but I bought 100 round Stoner box linked with 77grn FMJ's around 5 years ago from a surplus dealer. Its probably 55grn M193 spec or similar, but I would have to actually examine it or see a picture. 77grn 5.56 bullets are far from a "new" phenomenon.



Was this just MG ammo ONLY? A 1/12 twist in the M16 and A1 would be worthless for the heavier bullet. What was the twist rate on the Stoner?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:58:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 5:07:17 PM EDT by crazeeman13]
If it is any help, the box is marked; N01 Mark 1 Canadian Pattern PPBL 43 (some are marked; 44.)
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:48:27 AM EDT
This was MG ammo only, much like M855 was when it was first issued with the M249. Stoners which were used with the "heavy" ammo had 1/8 twist barrels, which later became 1/7.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 12:42:04 PM EDT
So is it SS109 or M193 or something different?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:10:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazeeman13:
So is it SS109 or M193 or something different?



Try sticking a magnet to the bullet tip.
If the magnet sticks it has a steel penetrator core making is SS109.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:48:24 AM EDT
It it was manufactured in 1971, as you indicated it cannot be SS109, as this didn't exist until a decade later, and it was years after its development before it started to become standardized.
I didn't mean to spark confusion, its just someone said 55grn bullets were all that existed at that time, and that isn't "exactly" true. Heavier bullets existed back them and IVI produced some of them. Odds are, its M193 spec ammo. If you are so inclined, pull a bullet. If its longer than what you know a 55grn bullet to be, its probably something in the 68grn range. These older "heavy weights" were pretty long by comparion and its usually a dead give away.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:27:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:
Don't worry if it's manufactured in '71. I have WCC 76-78 as well as LC and GE ammo. They still fire. My friend even has 50's LC in 30-08 he feeds his Garand. No failures.

I've seen surplus WWII stuff show up on the range-and fire just fine and be just as accurate as when they were newly made. Sealed inside the case, there's really no way for powder or primer to degrade. As long as it's "modern" ammunition, (as in mid-20th century or later and preferably non-corrosive) you shouldn't have any problems with any of it.

As for the bullet weight, that should be all the difference, not materials.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:46:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crazeeman13:
I asked this question a few weeks ago, but it was never really answered. (I will rephrase the question this time. ) In what loading/grain bullet did the Canadians manufacture 5.56 military ammo for their military? I have surplus IVI ammo dated 1971 and wondered if it is SS109/62grain, or is it a smaller bullet like M193? any feed-back would be apprechiated, thanks!



The Canadian military never reall used a rifle that was in 1X12. The earliest rifles, I belive it was the C-7A was 1X8 or even 1X9. I think probablly the stuff you have is 62 grain with a lead core similar. The reason it was probably surplused is because the Canadian military wasn't immpressed by the M-16 back then. They were concerned by the pentration issues of the standard bullets against the Russian wearing heavy coats and body armour. Thus they really didn't enter M-16's into really regular miltary until 1984.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:14:21 PM EDT
62grn FMJ which lack the penetrator core are a .223 phenomenon, which came along later on. If this ammo is dated 1971, its M193 spec, unless. 62grn bullets weren't used until FN developed the SS109 in the eighties. Too my knowledge, no NATO member has adopted a non-SS109 62grn FMJ bullet. Many people weren't impressed with the 5.56 round, or even the M16. As good as they both are, better existed at the time and politics prevented the furtherence of "better" weapons systems. 98% this is M193 spec 55grn FMJ ammo, unless its the heavier IVI ammo I explained.
In response to barrel twists, the United States is rather unique in its dedication to 1/7 while other NATO members use 1/9, which is actually optimal for the SS109 projectile. As I mentioned, testing was conducting with 77grn bullets, in addition to other "heavy" projectiles which required the faster twist. Ordinance officials had the foresight and recognized the need for a barrel twist capable of stabilizing larger rounds.
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