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Posted: 3/9/2006 1:21:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 1:26:00 PM EDT by brain3278]
Is this possible to do? Would it increase my FPS?

I currently shoot a Bushy Carbon 15 Pistol, 7.25" Stainless Steel 1x9 twist barrel. Chambered for 5.56mm.

I'm guessing that I could reload my old 5.56mm shells with pistol powder (faster burning) to increase my fps out of the short barrel.

HAS ANYONE EVER TRIED THIS?

EXPERTS OR HANDS ON COMMENTS ONLY!!!
Please don't waste my time telling me I'm an idiot. I'm looking for useful, Yes/No and Why answers!

Thanks,
Matt
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:35:07 PM EDT
You could try unique about 2grs and a cast lead bullet with a dab of dacron to keep the powder against the primer so you do not get a squib or low order detonation. I do this with big rifle cases for handling practice. I've never done a 223 since ammo is so cheap. Now if it were a bigger bullet you might have better luck. Like a 458 or some such. I would not use jacketed bullets though no matter what. Also keeping velocity down under 1,00fps. I however think the real fun is the flames that come out of the muzzle.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:45:26 PM EDT
VERY DANGEROUS!!

Im assuming you are talking about making 5.56 reloads using pistol powder.

Doing so would probably blow up your rifle!

Pistol powders have fast decomp rates (burn rates), rifle powders are slower.

pistol cartridges use small charges in relatively high volume spaces.

P=1/V (Pressure is inversely proportional to Volume)

using pistol powders for rifle cartridges will greatly exceed the barrel/chamber's pressure limit.

dont do it!

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:59:15 PM EDT
Great way to blow up your rifle - be sure to post pics (if you are able) after trying it
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:14:10 PM EDT
[assuming this guy isn't trolling us]



Are you fucking crazy!?!??!


Pistol powder is significantly faster than rifle powder. If you want to blow your rifle up as well as yourself, feel free to load pistol powder into a .223. A good start would be something like 26gr of Bullseye and a magnum primer if you'd like to commit suicide.


Stick with what the reloading manuals recommend.


ps, if you try this, make sure you're a good 20ft or more away from anyone at the range. Enjoy your life.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:22:32 PM EDT
I have a friend who got a piece of primer lodged in his brain by accidentally doing this.
DO NOT DO IT!

TS
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:34:15 PM EDT
There's a reason it's called "pistol powder." It burns much faster than is safe in ANY rifle cartridge.

DO NOT EVEN TRY IT.

As stated earlier, stick to what the loading manuals list.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:34:48 PM EDT
Here, 5 or 6gr of Accurate #5.... and a 55 FMJ... Did this back in 1990 farting around looking for something really soft & quiet... Lost a brand new Smith Enterprise carrier, a bolt assemly, and an A1 upper. The upper will still hold a barrel, but the material at bottom of eject port is bowed out.

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:35:44 PM EDT
I do believe that is a bad idea.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:36:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
Is this possible to do? Would it increase my FPS?

I currently shoot a Bushy Carbon 15 Pistol, 7.25" Stainless Steel 1x9 twist barrel. Chambered for 5.56mm.

I'm guessing that I could reload my old 5.56mm shells with pistol powder (faster burning) to increase my fps out of the short barrel.



Sounds like a good way to turn an AR-15 into a M18.....
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:38:29 PM EDT
ITS A PISTOL!!!!!!!!!!!! not a rifle. 7.25" barrel.

And I'm asking because I don't want to blow up my PISTOL! Geeshinking.gif

Now I can see the reasoning behind some of what you say, Pressures, smaller bore, etc. etc.
However, the barrel is much shorter, its much thicker than a pistol barrel, and the barrel is fluted which actually adds more strength to it than a bull barrel.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your not right, But I want you to consider everything!

don't waste my post with BS. If you think I'm trolling then let me drop to the bottom! and if you want to argue go somewhere else.

thanks for the advice Skypilot and Vapor trail!
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:41:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 2:42:28 PM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By brain3278:
ITS A PISTOL!!!!!!!!!!!! not a rifle. 7.25" barrel.



No, it's classified as a Pistol by the BATF for 4473.

It's still using RIFLE ammuntion, and has a RIFLE case capacity. It is NO stronger than any of the AR-15 rifles. It's an SBR w/o a stock for all practical purposes.

But if you still think it's 'just a pistol' and want to try, remember these words:

"Front Toward Enemy"
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:42:22 PM EDT
Thanks for those pics, and the hands on advice! That would probably be all I need to just go get an 11.5" barrel and throw this idea out the door.

That looks like it sucked, hope nobody got hurt doing that!

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:43:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
I'm an idiot.
Thanks,
Matt



Your question says it all. Reading ( as in any reloading manual is funditmental)
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:53:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
ITS A PISTOL!!!!!!!!!!!! not a rifle. 7.25" barrel.

And I'm asking because I don't want to blow up my PISTOL! Gees

Now I can see the reasoning behind some of what you say, Pressures, smaller bore, etc. etc.
However, the barrel is much shorter, its much thicker than a pistol barrel, and the barrel is fluted which actually adds more strength to it than a bull barrel.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your not right, But I want you to consider everything!

don't waste my post with BS. If you think I'm trolling then let me drop to the bottom! and if you want to argue go somewhere else.

thanks for the advice Skypilot and Vapor trail!



Go for it if your not willing to listen to peoples reply's to you.

But please do take video of it if you don't mind.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:55:06 PM EDT
WTF! is there something wrong with asking questions?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 3:28:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 3:29:38 PM EDT by j3_]
Could try the reloading forum where this thread should be. www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=1&f=9
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 3:51:45 PM EDT
I have had some success with 19gr of AA1680 using a 55gr M195 bullet. It works in a 20" barrel and a short gas tube type commando clone. I will be testing it in a 10.5" AR type pistol soon. I think the faster powder might help with some of the short cycling I have been getting with standard W748 loads.
Try this at your own risk. I assume no liabilty for anyone caring to use this data.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:46:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
Is this possible to do? Would it increase my FPS?
I currently shoot a Bushy Carbon 15 Pistol, 7.25" Stainless Steel 1x9 twist barrel. Chambered for 5.56mm.
I'm guessing that I could reload my old 5.56mm shells with pistol powder (faster burning) to increase my fps out of the short barrel.
HAS ANYONE EVER TRIED THIS?
EXPERTS OR HANDS ON COMMENTS ONLY!!!
Please don't waste my time telling me I'm an idiot. I'm looking for useful, Yes/No and Why answers!
Thanks,
Matt



Yes, it will increase your FPS (Face Part Scarring). Lets see, the only "hands on" was a grenade, and the "experts" who make the powder or publish the manuals all say "danger" or "suicide".

Do what you want, but post pics. Good bye, and good luck.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:11:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 9:17:58 PM EDT by ORinTX]
I beg you to listen to what folks are saying.

Just because you registered it as a pistol doesn't mean it's chambered for what you want it to do. It's still a 5.56 chamber and cartridge.

People DO die this way. It's not just an outside risk or a fluke. The probability is high that you'll be hurt.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:16:28 PM EDT
the only loads i have using 223 and pistol powder are for reduced loads using the 45-55 gr bullets.

I use 5 gr of Unique and a 50 gr Sierra semi point. It will not cycle the action of my AR but shoots the bullets about as fast as a 22lr or 22magnum and accurate enough for squirrel hunting.

It really does not matter if your gun is a pistol or a rifle what matters is the cartridge and the pressure that is designed around it.

As seen earlier with the blown up rifle, the pressure was too great and bad things happened. I am sure the bullet didn't get a few inches down the barrel before it came unglued. So it would not have mattered that it was a pistol or rifle....
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:04:44 AM EDT
Here is a person who accidently forgot to remove the pistol powder from their measure when loading some 223Rem.

Kaboomed quite nicely.





Even the slowest handgun powders wind up being way to fast(faster than any of the rifle powders) to be able to achieve comparable velocities of properly loaded rifle rounds using rifle powder.



Sometimes it's possible to make reduced loads by using small amounts of handgun powders with certain bullet combinations but you better take precautions against kB type issues that can result from small quantities of powder being ignited all at once by the primer causing a huge pressure spike rather than a gradual burn.


Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:37:31 AM EDT
Peak pressure. It's peak pressure that matters.


If you can find any commercial reloading data for 5.56mm chambered guns that uses pistol powder and recommends using it then by all means go for it. If not, it sounds like you are one of those "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" types and you may want to rethink if reloading is your thing.

If you are just asking to satisfy a curiousity then there is nothing wrong in asking. You are talking about something that is way-dangerous so don't be surprised when people react strongly.

Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:44:20 AM EDT
There is nothing wrong with asking a question. But when you do ask and then argue with the answers you get back... well video is always appreciated.


Seriously remember your face is gonna be RIGHT FRICKEN THERE when you test your little idea.

My wife likes my face for some reason and would be pissed at me if I had metal parts sticking out of it.



Majority says this is a BAD idea.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:25:31 AM EDT
Hey if he insists on trying.....well the Darwin awards always needs a few new people.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:05:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
WTF! is there something wrong with asking questions?



Just dumb ones.... with attitude.... and especially when posted in the wrong forums.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:18:02 AM EDT
+1

RELOAD manual?
use only what it says
If you want to beat up your RIFLE go ahead?

Factory Ammo Manufactures have Better POWDERS also

KISS
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:24:30 AM EDT
I think about all you can do to get the most velocity out of your short barrel is use
the fastest powders listed for .223 rifle reloads. They might get you faster velocity
than the standard powders most of us are using for 20" barrels. This would probably
only help to the tune of 100fps to 300fps over using standard powders like Win 748.

If you went into experimental mode, slightly faster powders than those published in manuals
would be my next, more dangerous choice.
I would not go this route because a few fps are not worth losing an eye or a gun that costs a paycheck.

I hope this addresses your question. I would not try pistol powders except for reduced
velocity plinking loads like 1500 fps or something. I would not know where to start picking powders
for that. It might need to be slower than .357 mag powders like H110. I'd let someone else be the guinea pig. Maybe have your mother-in-law shoot the loads.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:41:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Factory Ammo Manufactures have Better POWDERS also



Better? No.

Different/cheaper/bulk/non-canister grade? Yes.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:09:34 AM EDT
Again, I appreciate the constructive feedback.

Nope, not intending on doing this. Just wanted to find out the info about it.

Nope, not trying to argue either. I just want everyone to consider all the information.

As I believe I can conclude: From the evidence presented In most instances the problems that occured from this were involved with the back of the 5.56mm shell exploding due to the diameter and shape of the shell not allowing the faster burning pistol powder to exit through the front of the shell and barrel quickly enough. It seems that the remainder of the pistol powder then exploded into the bolt, carrier group, upper receiver, lower receiver, etc.. and therefore destroyed and manipulate the insides of the rifle.

For anyone who reads down this far on the post, this doesn't look like a good idea to try.

Those of you who are experimenting with this, best of luck and please be careful.

Thanks, again!
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:09:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
ITS A PISTOL!!!!!!!!!!!! not a rifle. 7.25" barrel.

And I'm asking because I don't want to blow up my PISTOL! Gees




Did the fact that the parts that are all toast in the pictures above are the very same ones that are in your PISTOL escape you?

The best you're going to get is subsonic 5.56 loadings. Since the primary wounding mechanism of the 5.56 FMJ is fragmentation which necessitates velocity, you're going down a blind alley that is (unfortunately) well traveled.

Tom
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 11:50:03 AM EDT
You could work up a load that used handgun powders in a rifle, but it sure won’t improve performance and likely won’t operate the action of a semiautomatic. It would also be dangerous as hell.

Here’s what happens.

Smokeless powder burns faster as pressure increases. Powders designed to burn at the relatively low pressures of handguns would burn incredibly fast at rifle pressures.

Let’s say a rifle can handle 50,000 psi of pressure safely. The objective is to reach that maximum pressure and then keep the powder burning (and the pressure up) while the bullet accelerates down the barrel. That’s the point of slow burning powders.

If you put a fast powder designed to burn at 16,000 psi in the cartridge then you will find that even a small amount of powder will cause the pressure to spike to 50,000 psi. Then, with all of the powder consumed, the pressure would drop rapidly before the bullet even gets moving good. A load like this might work in a 4” barrel AR build but it’s going to give pathetic performance in a normal length barrel. With no pressure to push it, friction from the extra barrel length will actually slow the bullet down.

If you try to add more fast burning powder then the pressure will just spike higher and faster resulting in your rifle turning into a grenade. In fact, pressure will spike so fast that even accidentally increasing the charge by a tiny amount over the safe load could cause drastic pressure spikes. (Temperature fluctuations might do the same thing.) A little increase in pressure makes the powder burn faster which drastically increases the chamber pressure, causing the powder to burn even faster… It’s a runaway effect.

IMO its way too dangerous to try, and the results wouldn’t be worth it. Not unless you like the idea of turning your rifle into a grenade.

BTW the DSA site has a video of a test they did on an FAL where they did this as a test. Go look it up and I think that’ll convince you not to try it.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:22:33 PM EDT
I would not use any of the powders not listed in your manuals. That being said, use the fastest burning powder listed to optimise the velocity in an extra short barrel. If you can find a load that uses a dual use pistol/rifle powder like 4227 (typical .30 carbine powder) that would be the first place to start.
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