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Posted: 3/6/2006 9:04:05 PM EDT
I have been stockpiling M193 for when I run out of better stuff. Is there cheaper or better ammo to stockpile (besides wolf). Maybe I should stockpile reloads w/ 80 grain projectiles or something.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:40:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 11:41:23 PM EDT by Rekced]
I would go for the Winchester White Box 40rd value pack sold at Wal-Mart. It's cheap, reliable and performs like any other FMJ. Plus it's made in Israel.


The best source of ammo is to teach your friends how to vote.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:56:53 AM EDT
I love the Wal Mart stuff but its not 5.56. Its not loaded to as high a pressure giving it less velocity and the less likely hood to tumble and cause as lethal wound.
I would buy several boxes of differnt 5.56 rounds and see which one your guns shoot best and stick with it.
I personally like the Federal 193 as the Winchester 5.56 really shoots badly in all of my guns for some reason.
JRandyH
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:58:49 AM EDT
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:08:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.


WORD
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:43:47 AM EDT
LCM855 not so bad? I got some myself !

But for now Im trying out the 77/75Blue Box Blackhills for the price I think its cheap for what you get! and super accurate out of my LMT 14.5

And found out my 15hbar bushy 1/9 shoots BH 77gr just fine! 1 inch groups @ 100 yards
and tin cans over 200Plus yards

Has WOLF 77 made it out yet? might have to try it out if its CHEAP
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:45:33 PM EDT
It depends on how much ammunition you consider "a stock pile"?

I like the 75 gr TAP loads from Hornady. I am able to buy the NATO spec loading form them as an LEO. I wold feel confortable in the SAAMI spec load from Black Hills also. I have enough to load all of the magazines I would carry in my chest rig. (8 + 1 mag in gun)

I do not consider this amount a stock pile. I wish I could afford to purchase 10-20 thousand rounds of this ammunition. I can not.

I have the 55 gr Winchester Q3131A and their new Q3131 Stockpiled. I store this in .50 cal ammo cans. I buy by the 1,000 round case. I keep several cases on hand. For the most part, I could sell my 55 gr ammo for more than I paid for it. Of course, it's not for sell....

Beat Trash
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:45:39 PM EDT
Here we go again....
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:50:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.

Amen
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 5:29:11 PM EDT
Just starting my stash with a couple cases of "Front Line" hug.gif
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:02:38 PM EDT
I would say anything that "reliably" goes bang and functions properly all of the time. Whatever that may be.

.02
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:11:56 PM EDT
You need to stock pile cheap plinking ammo (Wolf) while having third line of defense Federal AE/WWB/Canned Heat, 2nd line ammo (mil-surp) M855, M193 and first line- Black Hills and TAP.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:17:50 PM EDT
Where is a good place to get the Black Hills stuff online?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:19:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ex19Delta:
Just starting my stash with a couple cases of "Front Line"



Is this 'frontline' found at Ammoman.com or...? How much?

Would the Guat be good to stockpile now that they are inspecting some from each crate and delivery quality has improved?

$250 for 1440rds?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:23:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JHill:

Originally Posted By ex19Delta:
Just starting my stash with a couple cases of "Front Line"



Is this 'frontline' found at Ammoman.com or...? How much?

Would the Guat be good to stockpile now that they are inspecting some from each crate and delivery quality has improved?

$250 for 1440rds?

IMHO if the new Wolf M193 works in your rifle I would buy it over the Guat.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:55:04 PM EDT
BP South African. I would not be worried in the least to use the last case of Guat as SHTF. Also have Brit RG [90s] I would use without hesitation.

Lots of Q3131 and A and 193 I got years ago. Stored very properly and in perfect condition.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:09:35 AM EDT
The ones that shoot best in your guns.
JRandyH
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 6:33:06 AM EDT
<-------
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 6:59:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.



Are you referring to the British SS109? Who sells it lately? AIM doesn't have it anymore.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:01:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JHill:

Originally Posted By ex19Delta:
Just starting my stash with a couple cases of "Front Line"



Is this 'frontline' found at Ammoman.com or...? How much?

Would the Guat be good to stockpile now that they are inspecting some from each crate and delivery quality has improved?

$250 for 1440rds?



Yes, it's at ammoman.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:03:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShadowCompany:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.



Are you referring to the British SS109? Who sells it lately? AIM doesn't have it anymore.



No, but I have some of that too.

I was referring to the stuff available at ammoman.

http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

top of the 223 page. $489 for 1680 rounds.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:10:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By ShadowCompany:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.



Are you referring to the British SS109? Who sells it lately? AIM doesn't have it anymore.



No, but I have some of that too.

I was referring to the stuff available at ammoman.

http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

top of the 223 page. $489 for 1680 rounds.



SS109 is the bullet

M855 is the ammo.

And M855 is the worst SHTF ammo, and at that price is beyond bad.

M-193 or the BH/Hornady 75-77gr stuff is what you need to stock pile.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:15:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:17:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 7:21:17 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By ShadowCompany:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Front Line" SS109 sealed in 2 ammo cans per wooden crate.



Are you referring to the British SS109? Who sells it lately? AIM doesn't have it anymore.



No, but I have some of that too.

I was referring to the stuff available at ammoman.

http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

top of the 223 page. $489 for 1680 rounds.



SS109 is the bullet

M855 is the ammo.

And M855 is the worst SHTF ammo, and at that price is beyond bad.

M-193 or the BH/Hornady 75-77gr stuff is what you need to stock pile.



Why is it bad? Sealed primers, higher penetration? When you evaluate based on different criteria, high of a value do you place on, say, penetration compared to accuracy fragmentation etc?

And what twist rate are you firing 75-77 gr out of?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:20:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 7:22:22 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
So when you advised the author of this thread to use SS109 did you ask him in what way and in which gun he was going to use this SHTF ammo, or at which range?


Read up on M855 and how it lacks optimal performance.

But hey!

If you like it, have at it.

ETA: Higher penetration? Compared to what, in what, at what range?

Steel helmets at 800 meters?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:22:01 AM EDT
Federal Cartridge LE223T3
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:23:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 7:24:12 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
So when you advised the author of this thread to use SS109 did you ask him in what way and in which gun he was going to use this SHTF ammo, or at which range?


Read up on M855 and how it lacks optimal performance.

But hey!

If you like it, have at it.



No, I didn't ask him. I just posted what I thought was best. It definitely works in my barrel and I value its penetration characteristics. And the sealed primer/sealed bullet part.

Just for the sake of argument, what twist rate do you suspect the guy who posted the thread has? I'm not a betting man but if I were I think I would put my money on 1:9.


To be fair, I also have a bunch of Black Hills but it is 68 gr not 75+ if I remember right.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:32:01 AM EDT
Ok. 1/12 - 1/9 twist stock pile Q3131/Q3131A/M-193 as you can find it at a good price.

1/9 - 1/7 twist. See above.


Most SHTF situations are 100 meters or less. At that range M193 with have MUCH better effects than M855 out of any length barrel.

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:32:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 7:35:07 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
Ok. 1/12 - 1/9 twist stock pile Q3131/Q3131A/M-193 as you can find it at a good price.

1/9 - 1/7 twist. See above.


Most SHTF situations are 100 meters or less. At that range M193 with have MUCH better effects than M855 out of any length barrel.




I don’t think I’m disagreeing with any of the advantages you would say M193 has. I guess I just have some preconceptions about a SHTF scenario possibly involving more firing through light cover making the penetration characteristics of the SS109 desirable.

ETA: Maybe I am thinking this because when I hear SHTF I am not thinking home invasion. I am more thinking a New Orleans type wide spread situation that lasts for days with marauders/roving gangs etc.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:35:24 AM EDT
Can you point me to the information on M855 being better than M-193 that you are using to make these comments?

I not being a smart ass, just want to read it for myself and note the source.


Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:39:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 7:43:36 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
Can you point me to the information on M855 being better than M-193 that you are using to make these comments?

I not being a smart ass, just want to read it for myself and note the source.


Thanks.



At what? Penetration? That is its main advantage in my mind and I'm pretty sure that's in the ammo-oracle. When I say "better" I don't mean it outperforms in every criteria. I mean I like it's advantages in a criteria I have assigned a fair amount of weight to. In fact, I thought I read that it outperforms M80 7.62 in penetration.

I know they only refer to steel combat helmets (I see you edited an earlier post to mention that after I replied and I would have addressed it then but I didn't see it) but I am under the understanding that if it goes through helmets better it would go through car bodies better.

ETA: Or whatever you might happen to be firing through if someone was using cover while shooting at you/your home/your family during some sort of civil disorder SHTF situation.
Again, I don't mean a home invasion. For that I can completely understand why you would advocate superior fragmentation.


Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:42:45 AM EDT
Stock pile stuff that goes bang and reaches your intended target.


Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:48:14 AM EDT
SS109 BULLET is good as well! I find it shoots alot better in my Shorty than Q3131, Xm193 etc!

I have 4 Bandoliers stashed away for SHTF IMI M855 ,Lake City M855 also a 1 30rd Mag of Lake CityM856 for some strange reason?

The new 2006 Factory FIRST and FRESH P.P. M193 would be good to stash away for SFTF
I find it Very accurate than Xm193/Q3131

BTW I tried useing Black Hills 77gr.OTM out of my Bushmaster 15hbar A1 Shorty 1/9 TWIST
@ 200 plus yards I was hitting a Tin Can! used ML2



NEW WOLF 75OTM 2750FPS out of a 20 inch Barrel!!! THATS CLOSE to the 5.56 77 otm by Black hills.

I hope its Cheaper than Black Hills 75gr. and comes in 60 rds box!
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:49:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

At what? Penetration? That is its main advantage in my mind and I'm pretty sure that's in the ammo-oracle. When I say "better" I don't mean it outperforms in every criteria. I mean I like it's advantages in a criteria I have assigned a fair amount of weight to. In fact, I thought I read that it outperforms M80 7.62 in penetration.

I know they only refer to steel combat helmets (I see you edited an earlier post to mention that after I replied and I would have addressed it then but I didn't see it) but I am under the understanding that if it goes through helmets better it would go through car bodies better.

ETA: Or whatever you might happen to be firing through if someone was using cover while shooting at you/your home/your family during some sort of civil disorder SHTF situation.
Again, I don't mean a home invasion. For that I can completely understand why you would advocate superior fragmentation.






FYI: M193 with go through more metal at SHTF ranges than M855, due to the higher velocity.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:52:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:29:11 AM EDT by FMJ]
Read the black book! it compares the M193 and the M855/SS109 bullet in jello type test!

Looks the same to me!

According to someone I consult since 2001 that the SS109 bullet is even better than the M193!

BUT it Depends on how well the SS109 Bullet is Made.

Some are outstanding some not so.

SPOOGE5150
SHTF to me is 200yards!! I think at that range it would be to close and if anything ss109 would be BETTER

I have shot alot in junk yards! even at 100 yards it is very close
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:56:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:02:04 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

At what? Penetration? That is its main advantage in my mind and I'm pretty sure that's in the ammo-oracle. When I say "better" I don't mean it outperforms in every criteria. I mean I like it's advantages in a criteria I have assigned a fair amount of weight to. In fact, I thought I read that it outperforms M80 7.62 in penetration.

I know they only refer to steel combat helmets (I see you edited an earlier post to mention that after I replied and I would have addressed it then but I didn't see it) but I am under the understanding that if it goes through helmets better it would go through car bodies better.

ETA: Or whatever you might happen to be firing through if someone was using cover while shooting at you/your home/your family during some sort of civil disorder SHTF situation.
Again, I don't mean a home invasion. For that I can completely understand why you would advocate superior fragmentation.






FYI: M193 with go through more metal at SHTF ranges than M855, due to the higher velocity.



Is that true? I thought the Ed Harris article regarding the testing of M193, M855 and 7.62 M80 indicated M855 penetrated better than all of them.
I will have to try and find the article.

I'm pretty sure it won't because it breaks up. I don't think it even goes through car doors that well, despite (or I guess in part because of really) the velocity.
The steel in the ss109 is what allows it to penetrate better.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:04:02 AM EDT
Okie Dokie.


and now, for something completely different.......................................
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:06:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:13:03 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
Okie Dokie.


and now, for something completely different.......................................



Does that mean you're certain M193 will penetrate better than M855? I'm still looking for the article so if you have something please let me know.

The velocity isn't all there is to it. The steel core makes a difference too.


Oh, and how does the M193 penetrate more at "SHTF ranges" (I don't know how far that is but I guess you mean pretty close) and then, somehow, the M855 overtakes the M193 at some point and it penetrates more?
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:16:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
Okie Dokie.


and now, for something completely different.......................................



Does that mean you're certain M193 will penetrate better than M855? I'm still looking for the article so if you have something please let me know.

The velocity isn't all there is to it. The steel core makes a difference too.


Oh, and how does the M193 penetrate more at "SHTF ranges" (I don't know how far that is but I guess you mean pretty close) and then, somehow, the M855 overtakes the M193 at some point and it penetrates more?




www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855


To cite one source.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:22:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:25:21 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
Okie Dokie.


and now, for something completely different.......................................



Does that mean you're certain M193 will penetrate better than M855? I'm still looking for the article so if you have something please let me know.

The velocity isn't all there is to it. The steel core makes a difference too.


Oh, and how does the M193 penetrate more at "SHTF ranges" (I don't know how far that is but I guess you mean pretty close) and then, somehow, the M855 overtakes the M193 at some point and it penetrates more?




www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855


To cite one source.



I mentioned the ammo-oracle several post ago. I'm aware of it.

But, like I said, it might have to do with what I picture happening in a "SHTF". I value the penetration characteristics of the M855.

Since then you have claimed that M193 penetrates better than M855 at "SHTF" distances. I say bullshit. M855 penetrates better and I place value on that characteristic in a "SHTF". For a home invasion I have 68 grain Black Hills in my ARs (when fragmentation seems to me to be more important than penetration).

ETA: I'm not debating that you might or should get better fragmentation from M193. I'm saying in a SHTF (not a home defense scenario) I place more value on penetration...which you get from M855. It sounds like we want different characteristics from our SHTF ammo.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:26:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:32:58 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
I am keeping this civil. If you want to start using words like Bullsh*t to descibe my comments we are done.



I will leave you with this. Go out and shoot some at metal targets and see for yourself. I have.


OBTW if penetration is what you want you are greatly misinformed on what you need the bullet to do to the bad guy. AT ANY RANGE OR ANY SITUATION

www.btammolabs.com/articles.htm

Don't take my word for it.


Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:33:03 AM EDT
I suggest keeping some of both on hand. I DO.
JRandyH
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:36:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:40:56 AM EDT by FMJ]
IAMLEGEND NOT A CUT DOWN

BTW Thats a terrible aka!

You hate YHVH?


Anyway get the BLACK BOOK it compares M193 to M855 both are about the same to Me but the SS109 did better like I said depends on how well SS109 bullet is made.

AT 100 yards it to close to tell ?

if anything I would pick the SS109 over M193 for penetration over 100 yards

But I have way more M193 than M855/SS109

Might try the 75/77OTM`S
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:40:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:51:30 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
I am keeping this civil. If you want to start using words like Bullsh*t to descibe my comments we are done.



I will leave you with this. Go out and shoot some at metal targets and see for yourself. I have.


OBTW if penetration is what you want you are greatly misinformed on what you need the bullet to do to the bad guy. AT ANY RANGE OR ANY SITUATION

www.btammolabs.com/articles.htm

Don't take my word for it.





Well, sorry for saying bullshit. You are keeping it civil and I appreciate that. Seriously, that's a sincere apology.

I think I have conceded (a few times now) that M193 should yield better fragmentation.
When I talk about penetration, I don't mean just into a body. I mean through a car door (or through a car door and out the other car door) and then into a body. I understand what you're getting at about terminal balistics but from the tests I've seen and read about I don't think M855 is all that much worse than M193 and I think the penetration increase is worth it (if you think you will be shooting through things).
Like I said (a few times on this too) when I think SHTF I am not talking a robbery. I mean a SHTF where you might find yourself shooting at people hiding behind things. A bunch of attackers standing out in the open waiting to get hit with the round with the best terminal performance sounds great but I don't consider it likely. They might be behind something.

When I called bullshit, it was on the notion that M193 penetrates more than M855. The tests just don't show that. If you have done it I bet there are a lot fo people here wo would love to see pictures of the steel and read a write-up on the methodology. (I would)


And what do you mean by SHTF ranges just so I am sure I understand you. I think you probably mean within 100 meters.

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:42:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:45:35 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By FMJ:
IAMLEGEND NOT A CUT DOWN

BTW Thats a terrible aka!

You hate YHVH?


Anyway get the BLACK BOOK it compares M193 to M855 both are about the same to Me but the SS109 did better like I said depends on how well SS109 bullet is made.

AT 100 yards it to close to tell ?

if anything I would pick the SS109 over M193 for penetration over 100 yards

But I have way more M193 than M855/SS109

Might try the 75/77OTM`S



It's a GREAT aka...didn't you read the book?


I agree...the terminal ballistics aren't THAT much different and the penetration is a plus.

wound channel
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:45:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:47:24 AM EDT by FMJ]
Im trying to give you information you are asking for? Black book

Yes the SS109 penetrates better at long distance than M193 PERIOD!

YES M193 at close range 50 yards max From my junk yard testing. shooting cars etc

AND SS109/M855 is not the WORST AMMO!!

It depends on your NEED!


Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:46:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Im trying to give you information you are asking for? Black book

Yes the SS109 penetrates better at long distance than M193 PERIOD!

YES M193 at close range 50 yards max From my junk yard testing. shooting cars etc




I hear you...I will get on the Black Book. Thank you very much.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:49:13 AM EDT
Yeah some guys are real FIRM on the old M193! hell I got Tons for my Shorty and LMT M4

20inch barrel and M855 is far from being the worst!
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:51:58 AM EDT
Not everyone needs a humvee to get out of dodge if the SHTF, some people can't afford it. It may be milspec, and badass, but it doesn't mean that your old pickup wouldn't suit you just fine, too.

Same with ammo. Sure, it'd be nice to have 10k rounds of M193 or M855, but not everyone can afford that.

I'm ordering 2k of wolf 55gr next week, and it will suit me just fine.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:52:59 AM EDT
BTW I have READ THE BIBLE! wich Tells me all I want to know about Satan and his Flock

For we are many?

Im not cutting or saying you belive in that stuff or starting anything.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:54:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
BTW I have READ THE BIBLE! wich Tells me all I want to know about Satan and his Flock

For we are many?

Im not cutting or saying you belive in that stuff or starting anything.



Uhh...I meant the book I Am Legend by Richard Matheson.

I'm no fan of Satan.
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