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Posted: 2/25/2006 8:19:52 PM EDT
In a 16" barrel, which would you choose?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:18:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 9:20:13 PM EDT by DHB]
Neither of these are very desirable choices IMO which is based largely on the info in the Ammo Oracle. If these were all I had to choose from though then I guess I would go with the M855.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 3:39:18 AM EDT
If I had to choose between those two, for close defense I would feel very commfy with the AE223.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 3:55:09 AM EDT
M855 while not the 'best' self defense round, it is way ahead of the non-fragmenting AE .223.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:52:29 AM EDT
Thanks for the replies. But, Federals website shows the AE223 as having decent fragmentation. Of course, it is slower than the M855.

http://www.le.atk.com/223data/223riflebook.pdf
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:58:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
M855 while not the 'best' self defense round, it is way ahead of the non-fragmenting AE .223.



+1
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:10:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dave3006:
Thanks for the replies. But, Federals website shows the AE223 as having decent fragmentation. Of course, it is slower than the M855.

http://www.le.atk.com/223data/223riflebook.pdf



Thanks for posting that link. IMO, the AE .223 performs pretty well compared to the fancier "tactical" loads.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:34:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 10:39:25 AM EDT by chewbacca]
made it hot

I did not know that AE had some frag characteristics (probably uses same bullet as XM193). However, if you look at the gelatin, you notice that the AE has a long throat before fragmentation.

Why not just get top performing ammo anyway?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:09:50 AM EDT
M855...it works a little better than the conventional wisdom around here would suggest...oh, am I allowed to say that, or is someone going to slap me with a "The ammo oracle says!!!"?

Seriously though, from personal experience I've found the M855 to be plenty effective against human targets. I've shot a lot more people than I have blocks of gelatin though...
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:30:22 AM EDT
I have a 16/15inch barrel 1/9 twist for some reason like the SS109 bullet So I would pick it just for that reason alone!

AE is one of the BEST 223 rem rounds!

And shoots pretty tight groups compared to Q3131 on my rifle!


Right now I testing out Black Hills 75 BTHP that FOREST TOLD ME ABOUT! The bullet is crimp/
canneclure! wich I like better than the BH 77 wich I have to much of!!

Also on the M855/AE223rem I would go by PRICE also!


Ammoman has some M855 Lake City at a good price!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 1:08:35 PM EDT
Who said AE223 doesnt fragment?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:25:11 PM EDT

I always remind myself this-

in a likely SHTF scenario- advanced medical care will probably be limited. As such- any serious gunshot wound will likely be fatal. Much has been said about the 'golden hour'- meaning if you do not get to a trauma center within 60 minutes you are likely KIA.

So you will not need to blow somebody in half to kill them. I don't get too wrapped up in the more esoteric points of .223 / 5.56mm ballistics.

Plus- when it comes to my rifles- I am locked and loaded with a 30 rd mag. If the first shot doesn't do it- the 2nd, 3rd, 4th of 5th will.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:42:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 4:42:43 PM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By MFP_4073:
I always remind myself this-

in a likely SHTF scenario- advanced medical care will probably be limited. As such- any serious gunshot wound will likely be fatal. Much has been said about the 'golden hour'- meaning if you do not get to a trauma center within 60 minutes you are likely KIA.

So you will not need to blow somebody in half to kill them. I don't get too wrapped up in the more esoteric points of .223 / 5.56mm ballistics.

Plus- when it comes to my rifles- I am locked and loaded with a 30 rd mag. If the first shot doesn't do it- the 2nd, 3rd, 4th of 5th will.

4073




We arent talking about how well a bullet KILLS someone.... we are talking about reasonably the round will create trauma to the central nervous system, in order to make them IMMEDIATELY STOP doing whatever it was they did, to make you shoot them in the first place. You might not have time for the second round.

I agree with you in one way, that all too many people are WAY too hung up on this.... as skills, training, and shot placement will likely have a much greater effect on whether you survive the encounter than bullet construction..... but dont discount the discussion. It still remains valid.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:34:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 5:43:43 PM EDT by sleepdr]
From what I've seen, it's tissue damage/bleeding out that is the big killer compared with the central nervous system. The center of mass usually correlates with the heart, lungs, liver, bowel, large abdominal vessels that don't have as much bony protection. Nature tries to armor the CNS by putting bones around it, making more practical in most cases to punch enough large holes in someone to bleed out. The brain is encased by the bony skull. The spinal cord? Shooting from the front, you have an inch or two of bone to penetrate before hitting the cord AFTER passing through the soft tissue in front, and that's assuming you even hit it. It's hard enough to put an epidural in from the back if someone's moving around in labor. I'd not stake my life on punching the spinal cord of someone attacking me from the front.

Precision head shots are useful, but hard to take reliably under stress for the average shooter, especially if that head is moving/bobbing/weaving while the shooter is also moving/bobbing/weaving, shaking & scared to death. Either way, I agree with the main principle in FALARAK's post - the goal is to have a projectile that does damage, but shot placement with some useful knowledge of anatomy is key. Bleed someone out enough, and they'll go into shock - stopping whatever it was they did.

FALARAK's line bears repeating: skills, training, and shot placement will likely have a much greater effect on whether you survive the encounter than bullet construction. I've seen lots of folks die from unexpanded FMJs in the right place.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:26:27 PM EDT

My point is this- for what I keep ammo on hand for - a SHTF scenario (think Katrina)- I do not need a super gee-whiz bullet.

That's the bottom line.

If I were on a SWAT team I might be more concerned.

4073
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:17:00 PM EDT
Exactly. What little Q3131 I have around would be supplemented by WWB .223 in 40-packs, and I'd still consider myself armed.

In worst case scenario, shooting Wolf certainly beats throwing your AR at an assailant.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:25:59 PM EDT
I would be happy with either, especially up close. Hit someone once and they will most likely die. Pop them 3 or 4 times and it is almost assured. One .223 round to the chest will take the fight out of someone very quickly.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 9:09:24 PM EDT
For my handguns I keep the cheap stuff for practice. When my life is on the line I have the best ammo I can get my hands on in the magazine.

For my rifles its the same way. I use cheap ammo for practice, and make sure my rifle is sighted in for the best ammo I can put in it for defensive use. If the time ever comes that you have to pull the trigger on a human intent on taking your life, are you going to want $5 a box ammo, or the best damn stuff you have ever seen no matter what the cost?

Believe me, when your heart is pounding and you are responding to that unknown thump in the night $25 for 20 rounds of ammo starts to look cheap.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 5:51:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
made it hot

I did not know that AE had some frag characteristics (probably uses same bullet as XM193). However, if you look at the gelatin, you notice that the AE has a long throat before fragmentation.



IMO, the long throat before fragmentation is not necessarily a bad thing. If you have to use your rifle for defense, you don't know if you're going to have to shoot through things like an ammo vest or if the shootee is a big fat guy. Likewise, people tend to try and hide behind things when you shoot at them, so oftentimes you'll need good penetration.
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