This is a grab-1-gun-n-run survival scenario, correct? pack heaviest sierra matchking load  your gun will shoot reliably and accurately,  stalk as close as possible, put one square in the headquarters (brain case) & be ready for  immediate followup shots. fire as many as needed to ensure venison supply.  
situation not about hunting ethics or sportsmanship, but about survival.

load will be good for self defense also.

see VW Budman & Colt 100- them speak truth.  

Quoted: your 68 gr HPBT will do well on deer also,

Got mine with one last year.

amen, Wombat.

I don't think anyone mentioned the:  BARNES 70gr TSX.

This is a monster of a bullet-- hollow point with an almost 1/2" long solid shank of copper alloy as the base.  

These were shot into solid phone books at about 2700fps from about 3 yards.

 [ link to LARGER image ]

Although the last deer I shot was with the 110gr SPH in 6.8SPC, I will try this 70gr Barnes 223 bullet next time.

-z

Quoted: I don't think anyone mentioned the:  BARNES 70gr TSX. This is a monster of a bullet-- hollow point with an almost 1/2" long solid shank of copper alloy as the base.   These were shot into solid phone books at about 2700fps from about 3 yards. apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/small/A100_1543_img.jpg  [ link to LARGER image ] Although the last deer I shot was with the 110gr SPH in 6.8SPC, I will try this 70gr Barnes 223 bullet next time. -z

Go to the next local gunshow and buy the following:

Lee lap press $80 new
223 die set (came with the lap press)
50 rounds of nosler balisic tips. (Hell buy all 4  diff weights .)
Get a bullet puller hammer gizmo. $15
Calipers $25


With these inexpensive tools you can pull the bullet out of mil spec ammo and seat your own balistic tip hunting rounds.  It saves so much cash.

Quoted:

eh?

Quoted: Quoted: eh?

You have a lot of influence on the forums.  Rightfully so as you are very knowledgeable.  I still feel using the 223 for deer is like using a phillips head screw driver on a flat head screw.  Not the right tool.

DonD,

A hunter ought to know about the physical structures of the animal, the capability of his load and bullet with regard to those structures, and how it affects bullet placement.

Bullet selection is more important than caliber for calibers that are more or less close in bullet mass.  A varmint bullet in 257 Roberts +P is going to blow up just like a varmint bullet in 223, and a stoutly constructed bullet in either caliber will get more appropriate penetration.  (For dramatically heavier bullets, I think you can get away with less careful bullet selection, because chances are good a 190gr or 300gr SMK is going to truck through an antelope or deer just fine.)

Based on some results posted last season by others, and my testing into a tougher medium than bone/muscle (and observing the LACK OF jacket separation/fragmentation), I would have no qualms using the 70gr TSX on deer, for the type of close range hunting that is typical in the midwest and East.   There is no other bullet I would try with confidence in 223 right now.   I have not yet used any 223 loads on deer.  (The next bullet I have in line is the 110gr TSX in 6.8SPC.)

For reference, my experience is with my family hunting deer in Wisconsin using 30-30, 257 Roberts +P, 270WIN, 30-06, 7mm Mauser, and 6.8SPC.

-z

Zak, Thanks for the response.   I am in the process of building a 6.8 upper and would not have a problem using the 110 6.8 on deer.    The TSX is a Barnes.   I will have to read up on them.

I have always wanted a 257 Roberts I better get to work on it next.  My deer hunting has mostly been in Pennsylvania were I grew up.  I have hunted in Kentucky and Tennesse also.  The 30-30, 35 remington,
308 and 30-06 were the standards in Pa.  I  have also had success with the 270.

How is the ground hog hunting coming with the 338 Lupua?

i have shot 6 deer with my colt 6700 and all except one dropped on the spot.  that one was a chest shot.  the others were central nervous system shots.

This is great stuff

Quoted: I don't think anyone mentioned the:  BARNES 70gr TSX. This is a monster of a bullet-- hollow point with an almost 1/2" long solid shank of copper alloy as the base.   These were shot into solid phone books at about 2700fps from about 3 yards. apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TSX/small/A100_1543_img.jpg  [ link to LARGER image ] Although the last deer I shot was with the 110gr SPH in 6.8SPC, I will try this 70gr Barnes 223 bullet next time. -z

Zak-Smith,

The 70 gr Barnes TSX was designed with deer hunting in mind.  I spoke with the guys at Barnes before last season and was told that the neck-shot/head-shot only rule was no longer in effect with this bullet.  I ordered a box and loaded them up on top of 25.0 gr of Varget.  I had excellent results as you can see here in the archives.  Check out page 2 and following.

Scoop

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He switched guns after his "kill shot" went awry and both the quick followup shots/hits failed to bring the deer down.  We followed the trail as best we could but never found the deer.  There are more appropriate guns available.  Why not use them. And deer have been lost that were shot with .243, .270, .308, .30-06...   Yep, and I would further this buy saying a fragmenting bullet will do more damage if gut shot, than a heavier bullet that does not open up as quick and goes right through.

The last couple deer I have shot, the bullet (Hornady  .308 165gr SP from 30-06) has passed right through, and deer fell over in its tracks (75yd),  and at 200, he ran maybe 75 and fell down.  Fragmenting bullet not going to do crap, them deer is bigger than a human, you need to bust the rib to get in side in most cases, the last deer I shot shattered 2 ribs and became shrapnel to do the damage, cut the insides all to hell..

You want to shoot 1 with 223/556,  use a 65gr Sierra SP, and place your shot !   I made the mistake 2yr ago of shooting 1 with a 223, loaded with a 55gr V-max, excellent shot at 50yd, sucker fell down,,,,,,,, then got up and ran... blood everywhere.  we tracked for maybe 1hr, and never did find it, ran maybe 1/2 mile that I can figure before we lost track of the trail.

scoop,

I remember your posts and they prompted me to investigate this bullet.

-z

My AR worked fine for me this year  http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=466122

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He switched guns after his "kill shot" went awry and both the quick followup shots/hits failed to bring the deer down.  We followed the trail as best we could but never found the deer.  There are more appropriate guns available.  Why not use them. And deer have been lost that were shot with .243, .270, .308, .30-06...   Yep, and I would further this buy saying a fragmenting bullet will do more damage if gut shot, than a heavier bullet that does not open up as quick and goes right through. The last couple deer I have shot, the bullet (Hornady  .308 165gr SP from 30-06) has passed right through, and deer fell over in its tracks (75yd),  and at 200, he ran maybe 75 and fell down.  Fragmenting bullet not going to do crap, them deer is bigger than a human, you need to bust the rib to get in side in most cases, the last deer I shot shattered 2 ribs and became shrapnel to do the damage, cut the insides all to hell.. You want to shoot 1 with 223/556,  use a 65gr Sierra SP, and place your shot !   I made the mistake 2yr ago of shooting 1 with a 223, loaded with a 55gr V-max, excellent shot at 50yd, sucker fell down,,,,,,,, then got up and ran... blood everywhere.  we tracked for maybe 1hr, and never did find it, ran maybe 1/2 mile that I can figure before we lost track of the trail.

Well, you're the first one to have first hand knowledge of losing one to a .223.  Usually, it's from people that have had no experience.  Having said that, you may have suffered from lack of penetration from your selection of bullet.  Or you just had a poorly placed shot.  Or both.   And I disagree with your "fragmenting bullet not going to do crap" theory.  Or should I just roll over and say you win, just because YOU said so?  Deer have been lost to bigger calibers due to bad shot placement.  It's just a fact of life.  You can blame the caliber but I don't see it that way.  

Quoted: Well, you're the first one to have first hand knowledge of losing one to a .223.  Usually, it's from people that have had no experience.  Having said that, you may have suffered from lack of penetration from your selection of bullet. I have to agree, I happen to have a couple handloaded 55gr V-Max left, I took them to WV with me..  mistake of using a "varmit" bullet on a deer. Or you just had a poorly placed shot. I had enough time to place the shot, at approx 50yd, error could have been a couple inch low, but aim was right behind the left front arm, broadside.  He buckled up on the spot like he was hit with something bigger.. then he got up,,, I'm thinking  "DAMMIT"..... tried to quickly do a neck shot...  from there he ran.   Wanted so bad to see what the damage was. And I disagree with your "fragmenting bullet not going to do crap" theory. Thats fine Or should I just roll over and say you win, just because YOU said so? Nope, I'm relating my mistake, do with it what you please. Deer have been lost to bigger calibers due to bad shot placement.  It's just a fact of life. Had that happen also, 30-06 at 325yd, we lazed it afterward..  Not knowing the velocity of my handload to plot the drop... 10" from point of aim at 325yd...  needless to say, I switched powder, and have done some chrono work (need to do more)....  But I did get the deer,  the three of us split up, the deer walked over to the brush , and sat down... Anthony gave it 2 rounds of 270 with Ballistic tip. You can blame the caliber but I don't see it that way.

Quoted: Quoted: Well, you're the first one to have first hand knowledge of losing one to a .223.  Usually, it's from people that have had no experience.  Having said that, you may have suffered from lack of penetration from your selection of bullet. I have to agree, I happen to have a couple handloaded 55gr V-Max left, I took them to WV with me..  mistake of using a "varmit" bullet on a deer. Or you just had a poorly placed shot. I had enough time to place the shot, at approx 50yd, error could have been a couple inch low, but aim was right behind the left front arm, broadside.  He buckled up on the spot like he was hit with something bigger.. then he got up,,, I'm thinking  "DAMMIT"..... tried to quickly do a neck shot...  from there he ran.   Wanted so bad to see what the damage was. And I disagree with your "fragmenting bullet not going to do crap" theory. Thats fine Or should I just roll over and say you win, just because YOU said so? Nope, I'm relating my mistake, do with it what you please. Deer have been lost to bigger calibers due to bad shot placement.  It's just a fact of life. Had that happen also, 30-06 at 325yd, we lazed it afterward..  Not knowing the velocity of my handload to plot the drop... 10" from point of aim at 325yd...  needless to say, I switched powder, and have done some chrono work (need to do more)....  But I did get the deer,  the three of us split up, the deer walked over to the brush , and sat down... Anthony gave it 2 rounds of 270 with Ballistic tip. You can blame the caliber but I don't see it that way.

Well your honesty and professional response go a long way.  And I mean that sincerely.