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Posted: 2/13/2006 10:30:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 10:31:09 AM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 11:26:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
The 20rd box of match ammo seems to average $2 less.

.



Interesting. At the shop I bought some TAP from the Match stuff was several dollars a box MORE.

IIRC it was $20 for the Match, $16 for the TAP, the TAP for Personal Defense was in the $18-$20 IIRC.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:32:48 PM EDT
Here is some chronograph data for comparison when you have your results. All of my data was obtained using a Colt 20" A2 barrel with a 1:7 twist. Velocities listed are muzzle velocities obtained using Oehler software.

I fired 10 round strings of two different lots each of Hornady red box 75 grain TAP and Hornady 75 grain Match. The listed results are the averages of the two lots for each load.

Hornady 75 grain TAP

average muzzle velocity = 2676 fps
average standard deviation = 20 fps


Hornady 75 grain Match

average muzzle velocity = 2687 fps
average standard deviation = 20 fps
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:35:13 PM EDT
I bet its just a lot to lot variance. I have seen greater variances in Black Hills.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:54:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:20:46 PM EDT
So the cannelure causes a velocity loss? Is this a well known fact that I have somehow not been made aware of? What else are you guys keeping from me?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:27:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:41:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By PanzerMK7:
So the cannelure causes a velocity loss? Is this a well known fact that I have somehow not been made aware of? What else are you guys keeping from me?



The less powder in the TAP causes the LOSS, the cannelure would be responsible for the higher deviation.



Yeah but why would they load DOWN the Tap. You'd think it'd be hotter.

A long time ago I had 4 boxes of the match and it was the most accurate stuff I had at the time. It was out of a standard A2 20" colt. However, one time I took it hunting and chambered the same round several times (didn't know any better) and it definitely got set back. But I must've chambered it over 10 times. For some dumb reason I took care to always load the same one first. Otherwise I shot all 4 boxes a long time ago safely.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:52:35 PM EDT
I wonder if they load the 5.56x45mm TAP hotter than the .223 TAP? Maybe that is part of the difference?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:53:46 PM EDT
Yes the 5.56 TAP is WAY hotter than .223 and like I said I have sen more differences in lot to lot batches of otherwise identical Black Hills 75 grain ammo. Please stop trying to insinuate the TAP is loaded with a smaller charge on purpose it will only confuse people. This is however a good example of why you should buy as much ammo as possible from the same lot because there can be manufacturing variances.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:10:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 7:11:41 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:52:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 9:55:07 PM EDT by DevL]
Like I said I have seen Black Hills with more than that difference. Black Hills is considered quality ammo. Factory ammo is not handloads and you should always buy the same lot if you find a good factory load for your precision rifle. It would take many lots to see if the match is really consistantly loaded hotter than the TAP. The 5.56 TAP is cheaper than the Match or .223 TAP anyway.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:31:48 AM EDT
Please forgive my ignorance but the bullet (projectile) is the same on both right?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:07:41 AM EDT
I belive BigBore is correct, it is deliberate.

Look at the boxes, besides a different MV listed check out the published trajectories on the boxes.

There is a 0.1" difference at 100y, and nearly a 1" difference at 300y. It very much looks like they deliberatley load them to different velocities.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:16:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 6:17:58 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Molon & bigbore

FWIW, inorder for your chronongraph data on these rounds to be useable to most of us we really do need to know the distance the chronograph was placed at, as it'll effect the result.

(hopefully the normal 15')

Mike


ETA - why does Molon's data not show the MV difference between the two choices of bigbore's, if ya don't mind me asking?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:23:28 AM EDT
taggage
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:32:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:29:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
I belive BigBore is correct, it is deliberate.

Look at the boxes, besides a different MV listed check out the published trajectories on the boxes.

There is a 0.1" difference at 100y, and nearly a 1" difference at 300y. It very much looks like they deliberatley load them to different velocities.



Yep. Kinda makes sense now that the one that has the higher velocity listed also has one more grain of powder. Whodathunkit?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:52:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 10:03:49 AM EDT by DevL]
More likely they used two different barrel lengths to calculate the velocity and drop. Probably 20" on the match and 16" on the TAP. The testing does not show a 140 fps difference in velocity like the box does... no where near.

Someone else did chrono testing and the TAP FPD had higher velocities than the Red Box brass cased .223 TAP. Id compare FPD against a different lot of Match and see what you find.

Also you will note you have already started confusing people and the myth that the match ammo is loaded hotter on purpose is already taking hold from the responses.

ONE LOT OF EACH MEANS NOTHING... THIS IS NORMAL LOT TO LOT VARIANCE IN FACTORY LOADED AMMUNITION. I HAVE SEEN GREATER VARIANCES IN IDENTICAL LOADS.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:16:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 10:22:07 AM EDT by FMJ]
Im still confused? Box should state barrel length!

#8026 Match #80265 Tap

Maybe we can ask hornady what barrel was used
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:39:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
ONE LOT OF EACH MEANS NOTHING... THIS IS NORMAL LOT TO LOT VARIANCE IN FACTORY LOADED AMMUNITION. I HAVE SEEN GREATER VARIANCES IN IDENTICAL LOADS.



So are you trying to say that it is likely that the TAP (Red Box) and Match loads are being loaded to the same specs? Or that this lot of Match was accidentally hotter than an accidentally colder lot of TAP? Or am I missing the point?

Are you meaning the variance in velocity or variance in powder charge?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:54:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 3:01:34 PM EDT by DevL]
Sometimes comanies use differnt powders for budget or availablity reasons and if one ammo generates higher pressure they will reduce the charge to get somewhat equivalent velocities and pressures, sometimes companies reduce charge purposefully due to problems encountered, sometimes they just fuck up and accidentally load one lot 150 fps higher than another for no appearant reason. I had the last one happen to me with Black Hills over 100 fps difference in a 75 grain loading. They took my "bad" overly hot ammo and sent back several boxes of "propper" .223 pressure ammo.

I was shooting with Brouhaha one day when he was chronoing various 77 and 75 grain loads to see which were loaded the hottest. I pulled out a box of 75 grain Red Box Black Hills and began shooting a 100 yards group. He asked "What the hell are you shooting!?!?" I said its just more Red Box 75 grain. He said "Cant you hear the difference?" I said no but listened more carefully and it had the recoil and sound of a 5.56 load. He had me shoot some rounds through the chrono and sure enough it was getting right near 5.56 velocities. We concluded (as is happening here) that Red Box had higher velociteis than Blue Box in the 75 grain load due to a single test. Brouhaha called Black Hills and was informed they should be the same velocity with minor shifts from lot to lot. With one test of two otherwise identical loads we came to a premature conclusion that one was purposefully loaded hotter than the other. I believe that may be what is happeing here. The only way to tell for sure is to test multiple lots or call Hornady and speak to a rep to see the real truth. Dont jump to conclusions is all I am saying.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:29:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Sometimes comanies use differnt powders for budget or availablity reasons and if one ammo generates higher pressure they will reduce the charge to get somewhat equivalent velocities and pressures, sometimes companies reduce charge purposefully due to problems encountered, sometimes they just fuck up and accidentally load one lot 150 fps higher than another for no appearant reason. I had the last one happen to me with Black Hills over 100 fps difference in a 75 grain loading. They took my "bad" overly hot ammo and sent back several boxes of "propper" .223 pressure ammo.

I was shooting with Brouhaha one day when he was chronoing various 77 and 75 grain loads to see which were loaded the hottest. I pulled out a box of 75 grain Red Box Black Hills and began shooting a 100 yards group. He asked "What the hell are you shooting!?!?" I said its just more Red Box 75 grain. He said "Cant you hear the difference?" I said no but listened more carefully and it had the recoil and sound of a 5.56 load. He had me shoot some rounds through the chrono and sure enough it was getting right near 5.56 velocities. We concluded (as is happening here) that Red Box had higher velociteis than Blue Box in the 75 grain load due to a single test. Brouhaha called Black Hills and was informed they should be the same velocity with minor shifts from lot to lot. With one test of two otherwise identical loads we came to a premature conclusion that one was purposefully loaded hotter than the other. I believe that may be what is happeing here. The only way to tell for sure is to test multiple lots or call Hornady and speak to a rep to see the real truth. Dont jump to conclusions is all I am saying.



Even though I don't always do this, I agree with DevL completely this time. First off, I used to go on hornady's sight alot, and they used a 16" barrel to show the velocities for their TAP 75 grain loading. And as far as the powder goes, if they don't weigh each charge, it's feasible to be off a little. I suppose whoever's dialing in the powder charge releaser thingy, may not do it exact same every time. I don't know. Somehow it seems pretty feasible. And I'm pretty sure they don't use a scale for each round.

I think this is why people end up handloading, especially when its for competition of the bullseye variety and such. You can be more precise. Steve, isn't it true that the top highpower shooters will shoot handloads or no?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 3:39:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:22:20 PM EDT
Steve,

How do the volumes of the powder compare, if you still have them?

Most of the larger manufacturing plants use volume to measure out loads. Since no two lots of the same "type" of powder are exactly the same, you have to expect certain lot to lot variation. Density is generally one of the criteria that a powder must pass for QA/QC.

From Steve's chrono data, and depending on how much error you accept, the numbers aren't very different, statistically. What you are seeing though, is a pretty big difference in powder mass. Generally from my own .223 handloading, I would expect to see a larger difference in velocity if this is the same lot of powder for a +1 grain difference. When you get up there, 1 grain is the difference between a safe load and popping primers.

I do agree with DevL partially. If Hornady or Black Hills, or anyone else for that matter contract out their powder, then they are going to get a pretty consistent lot to lot performance. One grain is a pretty significant difference. If Hornady randomly switches powder, especially in their Match loads, then they could end up with a very unhappy group of customers. I've seem some guns that will not group with particular powders for no apparent reason. Be it a technical aspect that is undiscovered or ballistic VoDoo, I couldn't say.

Maybe TAP and Match are completely different loadings powder wise.

Either way, we will know more when Steve gets some more test samples to try out.

And from my own shooting, I've tried some factory loads at 600-800. It was frustrating as the shots I know were good were just not going where they should. So then it is back to the handloads.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:34:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:58:07 PM EDT
That is quite the pic!!!!! What do you have a microscope on your camera?

I agree with you though, whichever is cheapest would be the best, I never understood why they had to have a TAP and a match but I guess the cannelure is that big of a deal to some.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:26:29 PM EDT
I know commercial mfg's aren't using cannister powders, but if you look at published reloading data, those charge weights would appear to coincide with a powder that's slower than H322/Benchmark, but faster than Varget/H4895/RL15. I don't have any experience with VV powders, I know they mfg extruded versions, maybe it would coincide with 140/540.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:32:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 1:09:58 PM EDT by Mike_Mills]
I disassembled a few of the Black Hills remanufactured cartridges which were loaded with Hornady 75 gr HPBT-M bullets. I was very surprised to find the bullet had a cannelure because the bullets sold for reloading do not. The powder appeared to be TAC - a very black colored, super fine grained ball powder.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:45:04 PM EDT
how about some ballastics in gelatin for these 2? I'll pitch in a few bunchs for gelatin.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:11:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
I disassembled a few of the Black Hills remanufactured cartridges which were loaded with Hornady 75 gr HPBT-M bullets. I was very surprised to find the bullet had a cannelure because the bullets sold for reloading do not. The powder appeared to be TAP - a very black colored, super fine grained ball powder.



Did you mean Ramshot TAC?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:43:46 PM EDT
I came across this:


Other than new packaging (black boxes with red lettering), exactly what is Hornady's TAP FPD ammunition? In the rifle and pistol ammunition, there's a highly noticeable feature that improves functional reliability to a marked degree. Hornady developed a special black nickel plating for use on all of the metallic cartridges in the TAP FPD line. It's different in appearance--sort of a shiny black color--but the real reason for using it is a greater smoothness. You can actually feel the difference when you compare it to conventional ammunition.

More smoothness simply means greater reliability. As much time as instructors spend teaching their students to clear malfunctions under stress, they would really prefer to have no malfunctions in the first place. This plating helps. It also means instant identification of your fighting ammo.

TAP FPD ammo is also better in the selection of other components. Powders, for example, are chosen for their low flash characteristics. High-performance ammunition often produces muzzle flash that is so extreme that the shooter has difficulty delivering accurate subsequent shots. Losing a big part of your night vision is not a good thing in a crisis shooting situation.



http://hornady.primediaoutdoors.com/HDstory3.html


Does the black nickel plating really improve feeding and reliability?

Is there less muzzle flash with the TAP?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:48:25 PM EDT
According to Hornady's website both the Match and TAP 75 gr have the same muzzle velocity at 2790 fps.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:17:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
how about some ballastics in gelatin for these 2? I'll pitch in a few bunchs for gelatin.



Already tons of gelatin ballsitcs info out there. The Hornady 75 grain OTM bullet is probably one of, if not the best, performing 5.56 projectile made as it frgments easily and has a short neck.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:27:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 3:29:43 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
how about some ballastics in gelatin for these 2? I'll pitch in a few bunchs for gelatin.




duuuhhhhhhh, open mouth/insert foot: www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm

Already done, guess you should pay more attention to the "tacked" threads above......

Mike

ETA - as they both are using the same bullet, mutiple tests are not necessary

btw, what's a "bunchs" worth nowdays?


Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:13:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 9:02:38 AM EDT by Molon]
This pic is from a round of red box 75 grain TAP. The charge weighs 23.6 grains. The powder resembles VihtaVuori powders. It also resembles Alliant Reloder powders.





VihtaVuouri powder
Hornady TAP powder
Reloder powder


Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:19:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 9:41:48 AM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
I disassembled a few of the Black Hills remanufactured cartridges which were loaded with Hornady 75 gr HPBT-M bullets. I was very surprised to find the bullet had a cannelure because the bullets sold for reloading do not. The powder appeared to be TAP - a very black colored, super fine grained ball powder.



Did you mean Ramshot TAC?



You might be interested in viewing this thread.

powder comparison pics
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:10:38 PM EDT
Yes, I did. Thank you, the error above was corrected.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:01:43 PM EDT
TAP toutes its "low muzzle flash" and being that it is an LE round it might be "downloaded" for liability reasons. But that wouldn't make sense because most GOOD .223/5.56 fragments violently inside a body.


But then again, the box o' truth. 12 pine boards.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:17:00 PM EDT
Do these fragment even at the low speed - or are they designed not to fragment and instead mushroom for effect?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:18:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 7:19:27 PM EDT by A96HondaAccordEX]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
how about some ballastics in gelatin for these 2? I'll pitch in a few bunchs for gelatin.




duuuhhhhhhh, open mouth/insert foot: www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm

Already done, guess you should pay more attention to the "tacked" threads above......

Mike

ETA - as they both are using the same bullet, mutiple tests are not necessary

btw, what's a "bunchs" worth nowdays?




LOL well, isnt that great. I've been to the tacked site, but last time I checked, i got a 404 error, so I never went back and look.

Ok, what about gelatin with clothes?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:27:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
Do these fragment even at the low speed - or are they designed not to fragment and instead mushroom for effect?



Fragment at reduced velocities like all OTM bullets.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:28:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
how about some ballastics in gelatin for these 2? I'll pitch in a few bunchs for gelatin.




duuuhhhhhhh, open mouth/insert foot: www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm

Already done, guess you should pay more attention to the "tacked" threads above......

Mike

ETA - as they both are using the same bullet, mutiple tests are not necessary

btw, what's a "bunchs" worth nowdays?




LOL well, isnt that great. I've been to the tacked site, but last time I checked, i got a 404 error, so I never went back and look.

Ok, what about gelatin with clothes?



No statistically significant difference. They also retain more total mass though barriers and penetrate better there too.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:46:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
I disassembled a few of the Black Hills remanufactured cartridges which were loaded with Hornady 75 gr HPBT-M bullets. I was very surprised to find the bullet had a cannelure because the bullets sold for reloading do not. The powder appeared to be TAP - a very black colored, super fine grained ball powder.



Did you mean Ramshot TAC?



You might be interested in viewing this thread.

powder comparison pics




That's a good post you referenced, Molon. I am well aware that many/most/all commercial reloaders use non-cannister grades of powder. That is why I did not just say, flat out, it was loaded with TAP. I've never even seen TAP in person. TAP is not a friend of mine.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:44:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:
Do these fragment even at the low speed - or are they designed not to fragment and instead mushroom for effect?



Please see the thread on the Bushmaster pistol. According to Hornady the fragmentation % is 72 with a 16" barrel and 34 with an 11" barrel.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:48:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:

http://hornady.primediaoutdoors.com/HDstory3.html


Does the black nickel plating really improve feeding and reliability?

Is there less muzzle flash with the TAP?



Was this missed or are the answers unknown at this time?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 1:56:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:

Originally Posted By Neo1:

http://hornady.primediaoutdoors.com/HDstory3.html


Does the black nickel plating really improve feeding and reliability?

Is there less muzzle flash with the TAP?



Was this missed or are the answers unknown at this time?



Suppose to help with feeding and extracting.

Muzzle flash. If you got a quality FH, you dont need to worry about muzzle flash.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 9:18:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
how about some ballastics in gelatin for these 2? I'll pitch in a few bunchs for gelatin.




duuuhhhhhhh, open mouth/insert foot: www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm

Already done, guess you should pay more attention to the "tacked" threads above......

Mike

ETA - as they both are using the same bullet, mutiple tests are not necessary

btw, what's a "bunchs" worth nowdays?





I believe that test used the old, longer Hornady 75s.
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