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Posted: 2/9/2006 8:57:27 AM EDT
Why is it cheaper than other ammo?

Can you shoot it thru a suppressor?

Is it steel tip, or steel core, or no steel at all?

Accurate?

Problems with it?

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:04:35 AM EDT
As noted by the ammo faq tacked to the top of this forum and current pricing for "real" mil spec M855 ammo.

It's not cheaper than other ammo, unless your buying the "seconds".

It does have a steel core if it's true M855 rounds.

As accurate as quality M193 rounds

Only problems I'm aware of came from batches of "seconds".

Mike
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:21:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 9:23:54 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
It does have a steel core if it's true M855 rounds.



No. It has a tungsten penetrator in front of the lead core.



As accurate as quality M193 rounds



Absolutely FALSE! M855 is notoriously marginally accurate due to the above mentioned penetrator.
2.5 MOA is about the norm with M855.

Of course it can be shot thru a can. No problems have been reported with it FUNCTIONALLY speaking. But apparently some of the "PD" packed stuff has contained DAMAGED rounds.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:28:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 9:35:53 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By markm:
Absolutely FALSE! M855 is notoriously marginally accurate due to the above mentioned penetrator.
2.5 MOA is about the norm with M855.



FWIW, the IMI M855 I have shoots on par with the Q3131A at 100 yards outta my rifles (14.5" w/ permFS LMT & 16" CMMG, both 1/7, both Aimpoint equipped). I believe it to be real M855, hence my comments above.

Mike

ETA -

From the www.ammo-oracle.com, M855 detail pic, hence my "steel" comment above.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:29:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:31:42 AM EDT
Thanks brou, thought I was losing my mind for a moment.....

Mike
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:39:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 9:40:15 AM EDT by markm]


Steel Penetrator in front of a lead core? I think someone here said the penetrator makes up 17 grains of the 62 grain total weight.

In any case, I've Got IMI .223 to group well under my best M855 group. It's definitely combat accurate, but I've heard my USMC relatives get pissed about it. ...Shooting 4s and 5s all day and then WHAMMO... some friggin flyer.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:04:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
It does have a steel core if it's true M855 rounds.



No. It has a tungsten penetrator in front of the lead core.




No, it's a steel core. M995 has the tungsten core.




ouch
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:09:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:


Steel Penetrator in front of a lead core? I think someone here said the penetrator makes up 17 grains of the 62 grain total weight.

In any case, I've Got IMI .223 to group well under my best M855 group. It's definitely combat accurate, but I've heard my USMC relatives get pissed about it. ...Shooting 4s and 5s all day and then WHAMMO... some friggin flyer.




It's a 7 grain steel penetrator. Most of the core is lead. I have recovered a gazillion of them off steel plates. It's surprisingly big, yet it's only 7 grains.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:45:23 PM EDT
this is what I've found into my Igman

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 3:26:51 PM EDT
Tungsten is non-magnetic and steel is. Do the magnet test. M855 is magnetic hence the steel core.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:49:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 4:35:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911ar-15:

It's a 7 grain steel penetrator. Most of the core is lead. I have recovered a gazillion of them off steel plates. It's surprisingly big, yet it's only 7 grains.




REALLY? When we shoot them on our steel that penetrator bursts in a shower of sparks! It's cool at night!
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:29:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
If it was tungsten and was the same size, it would weigh around 45gr.



Nope, it would weigh 17.12 grains.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:50:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why is it cheaper than other ammo?

Can you shoot it thru a suppressor?

Is it steel tip, or steel core, or no steel at all?

Accurate?

Problems with it?




Why do you feel, just because you have been here a while, that you dont have to read all the tacked threads which clearly answer your elementary questions?

Are you "speshul?"

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:00:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why is it cheaper than other ammo?

Can you shoot it thru a suppressor?

Is it steel tip, or steel core, or no steel at all?

Accurate?

Problems with it?




Why do you feel, just because you have been here a while, that you dont have to read all the tacked threads which clearly answer your elementary questions?

Are you "speshul?"




The tacked threads DO NOT talk about running it thru a suppressor.

Nor do they have the "hands on" testimonials that I seek here.

They don't tell why its cheaper than other ammo.

I ain't "speshul." But you apparently can't read.


Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:21:15 AM EDT
Well, you had to be a dick, when I was just ribbing you.... so flame on jerky.



Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why is it cheaper than other ammo?

Can you shoot it thru a suppressor?

Is it steel tip, or steel core, or no steel at all?

Accurate?

Problems with it?




Why do you feel, just because you have been here a while, that you dont have to read all the tacked threads which clearly answer your elementary questions?

Are you "speshul?"




The tacked threads DO NOT talk about running it thru a suppressor.



That is because it is a silly question.


Nor do they have the "hands on" testimonials that I seek here.


Bullshit. TACKED

That is tacked, with TONS of hands on testimonials... and links to many other testimonials, from ARFCOM users, with polls on reliability, etc.


They don't tell why its cheaper than other ammo.


That is because, in general, IT ISNT, SILLY BOY. In general, green tip SS109/M855 is more expensive than most surplus M193 alternatives. Do some research.


I ain't "speshul." But you apparently can't read.



Pot-kettle-black my friend. As I said, perhaps you should read a bit more before opening your mouth so much.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:52:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 7:59:34 AM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Well, you had to be a dick, when I was just ribbing you.... so flame on jerky.



Did you not see my sarcasm emoticon -- - -> ???




Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Can you shoot it thru a suppressor?




That is because it is a silly question.



Really? Given I've got about $1,000 in my suppressor, and tolerances are low, and bullets not stabilized coming out of the barrel could cause a baffle strike, why is my question silly?





Nor do they have the "hands on" testimonials that I seek here.


Bullshit. TACKED

That is tacked, with TONS of hands on testimonials... and links to many other testimonials, from ARFCOM users, with polls on reliability, etc.

[

Sorry, I missed that. Sue me. For the amount of time you wasted in CHOOSING to enter this thread, when you claim everythign i want to know is in tacked threads.




They don't tell why its cheaper than other ammo.




That is because, in general, IT ISNT, SILLY BOY. In general, green tip SS109/M855 is more expensive than most surplus M193 alternatives. Do some research.



It IS cheaper. YOu want the link? www.aimsurplus.com YOU do some research.

So as I say, my questions ARE legit, and ask for material NOT contained in tacked threads. So back off, dude.


Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:15:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 8:16:22 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By garandman:
Did you not see my sarcasm emoticon -- - -> ???



Yeah, I missed that. Sue me.


Originally Posted By garandman:
Really? Given I've got about $1,000 in my suppressor, and tolerances are low, and bullets not stabilized coming out of the barrel could cause a baffle strike, why is my question silly?



Sure it is. Bullet stabilizaton is a factor of bullet length, and twist rate. Of course, that information is also tacked at the top.


Sorry, I missed that. Sue me. For the amount of time you wasted in CHOOSING to enter this thread, when you claim everythign i want to know is in tacked threads.


My people will be contacting your people.


It IS cheaper. YOu want the link? www.aimsurplus.com YOU do some research.


Sigh. Must I school you again? That is ONE SPECIFIC type of surplus green tip. You didnt mention ADCOM in your post at all. You stated "green tip" and in GENERAL, M855/SS109 green tip ammunition cost more than many other alternatives. Hell, I can go to Wal-mart and buy .223 ammo cheaper than that Adcom after shipping charges.

To add insult to injury, if you were really interested in the ADCOM specifically, THAT IS tacked at the top, in the "Ammunition Review and Reference" thread.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=253108


So as I say, my questions ARE legit, and ask for material NOT contained in tacked threads. So back off, dude.


I am off, dude.

You are still wrong.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:33:04 AM EDT
WASH YOUR HANDS!
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:14:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:



Backatcha

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:10:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:13:01 AM EDT
Cantcha feel the love?



Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:06:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
Cantcha feel the love?






Well, sorry, but he's for the most part right about M855 being more. Especially when you compare apples to apples as far as quality goes. The only thing is, I think this may change because 193 is getting harder to find with prices going up and I think M855 has been coming down in price. I personally wouldn't have a problem with this.

Some of us are just short on patience sometimes. You'll probably be one to someday. Although some people are better at being smart alecs than others.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:12:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Well, sorry, but he's for the most part right about M855 being more. Especially when you compare apples to apples as far as quality goes. The only thing is, I think this may change because 193 is getting harder to find with prices going up and I think M855 has been coming down in price. I personally wouldn't have a problem with this.

Some of us are just short on patience sometimes. You'll probably be one to someday. Although some people are better at being smart alecs than others.



DUDE -

on the AImSurplus website, there are TWO - count 'em TWO DIFFERENT kinds of green tip - BOTH less expensive than your run of the mill 55 grain commercial stuff.

NOT just Adcom - ALSO the LC stuff.

So back off punk. This ain't your conversation.


So....was I pretty good at being a smart alec there?

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:27:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 5:31:00 AM EDT by JJREA]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Well, sorry, but he's for the most part right about M855 being more. Especially when you compare apples to apples as far as quality goes. The only thing is, I think this may change because 193 is getting harder to find with prices going up and I think M855 has been coming down in price. I personally wouldn't have a problem with this.

Some of us are just short on patience sometimes. You'll probably be one to someday. Although some people are better at being smart alecs than others.



DUDE -

on the AImSurplus website, there are TWO - count 'em TWO DIFFERENT kinds of green tip - BOTH less expensive than your run of the mill 55 grain commercial stuff.

NOT just Adcom - ALSO the LC stuff.

I challenge you to find BOXED Lake City for anywhere near that price. I'm guessing that's PD stuff which is like 2nd or 3rd reject, from what I understand. The ADcom is very reasonable, I will admit. But I don't know about the quality. There is a whole tacked thread about it. I don't know if I'd put it in the same ballpark as winchester or federal. Maybe it is as good. I'm looking at some right now and it sure looks clean. I just have a couple boxes though. I wonder if the sellers would back it up if it blows up my rifle?

So back off punk. This ain't your conversation.


So....was I pretty good at being a smart alec there?





I challenge you to find BOXED lake city for that price. Or on stripper clips. That's probably PD stuff which is like 2nd or 3rd tier.
The adcom looks good, I have some too. But I don't know if it's in the same ballpark as Winchester or Federal. I wonder if it blows up my carbine if the sellers would back it up? I might have to get more of that stuff too.

And yes, that was very smart alec. I don't know if that's a good thing though.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:51:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:


I challenge you to find BOXED lake city for that price. Or on stripper clips. .



Why would I want to pay for boxes, or stripper clips that I AM GONNA THROW AWAY????

The thing is this - I have PROVEN EVERY question I asked was valid for a SEPARATE thread - and NOT answered in the tacked threads.

So, let it go y'all. Or report me to site mgmt.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:23:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why would I want to pay for boxes, or stripper clips that I AM GONNA THROW AWAY????



Simply put.... Boxed ammo is typically higher quality. Stripper clipped ammo is typically first rate, destined for the field. I agree tho, stipper clipped ammo is typically more expensive and I dont care for paying more for the clips or convenience. I DO prefer boxed ammunition... because:

Loose packed ammo is *typically* reject ammunition, some people call it "floor sweepings" although that is not a literal term.

It is generally accepted that anytime you purchase loose ammunition, you must inspect each round, by round, to look for defects that would actually be very dangerous to shoot. This is very common to find these defects in BOTH types of ammo you referenced on the AIM website.... ADCOM and XM855PD. Crushed necks, large dents, bent rounds, backwards primers, waaaaaaay too deeply seated bullets, etc. If I have to inspect every single round for this amount of issues... I had better get it a LOT cheaper than $180 plus shipping. ($25)

For instance... Ammoman has brand new AE 55gr (non milspec) for $209 delivered. The stuff at AIM would cost me $205 delivered... Which do you think I will buy?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:41:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why would I want to pay for boxes, or stripper clips that I AM GONNA THROW AWAY????



It is generally accepted that anytime you purchase loose ammunition, you must inspect each round, by round, to look for defects that would actually be very dangerous to shoot. This is very common to find these defects in BOTH types of ammo you referenced on the AIM website.... ADCOM and XM855PD. Crushed necks, large dents, bent rounds, backwards primers, waaaaaaay too deeply seated bullets, etc. If I have to inspect every single round for this amount of issues... I had better get it a LOT cheaper than $180 plus shipping. ($25)




Thanx for the info. THAT is why I asked "Why is it cheaper?"

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:24:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why would I want to pay for boxes, or stripper clips that I AM GONNA THROW AWAY????



It is generally accepted that anytime you purchase loose ammunition, you must inspect each round, by round, to look for defects that would actually be very dangerous to shoot. This is very common to find these defects in BOTH types of ammo you referenced on the AIM website.... ADCOM and XM855PD. Crushed necks, large dents, bent rounds, backwards primers, waaaaaaay too deeply seated bullets, etc. If I have to inspect every single round for this amount of issues... I had better get it a LOT cheaper than $180 plus shipping. ($25)




Thanx for the info. THAT is why I asked "Why is it cheaper?"




After reading that post... I realized that I really lumped Adcom in with PD. Both have shown to have a high number of defects.... but ADCOM has far less significant defects than the reports of the PD ammo.... so I didnt want to sound like Adcom was THAT bad. Given the choice, I would go with Adcom.... but I still would inspect it and see if the defect rate was bad enough to make me continue to inspect.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:44:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 11:44:31 AM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
After reading that post... I realized that I really lumped Adcom in with PD. Both have shown to have a high number of defects.... but ADCOM has far less significant defects than the reports of the PD ammo.... so I didnt want to sound like Adcom was THAT bad. Given the choice, I would go with Adcom.... but I still would inspect it and see if the defect rate was bad enough to make me continue to inspect.



Bottom line is I just ordered 2,000 rounds 55 gr Fed Am Eagle from Natchez for $399 shipped.

Best price I've seen.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:49:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
After reading that post... I realized that I really lumped Adcom in with PD. Both have shown to have a high number of defects.... but ADCOM has far less significant defects than the reports of the PD ammo.... so I didnt want to sound like Adcom was THAT bad. Given the choice, I would go with Adcom.... but I still would inspect it and see if the defect rate was bad enough to make me continue to inspect.



Bottom line is I just ordered 2,000 rounds 55 gr Fed Am Eagle from Natchez for $399 shipped.

Best price I've seen.




Very interesting.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:53:36 AM EDT
2.5moa?

With Santa Barbra SS109 I get 1 inch groups @ 1oo yards with a bushwacker 20HBAR /10x scope
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:40:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
After reading that post... I realized that I really lumped Adcom in with PD. Both have shown to have a high number of defects.... but ADCOM has far less significant defects than the reports of the PD ammo.... so I didnt want to sound like Adcom was THAT bad. Given the choice, I would go with Adcom.... but I still would inspect it and see if the defect rate was bad enough to make me continue to inspect.



Bottom line is I just ordered 2,000 rounds 55 gr Fed Am Eagle from Natchez for $399 shipped.

Best price I've seen.




Very interesting.



Which is why I kinda get pissed about the "its in the tacked threads" crap.

Aren't we here to help each other? Am I really imposing upon "you" if I ask a question that is SORTA answered in a tacked thread?

You guys helped me make a good decision. For that I am grateful. Please accept my thanx.

And if a question is KINDA SORTA answered in a tacked thread, just don't answer the question, rather than spout off " Its in teh tacked threads."

Rant over.

Thanx again for the help. I THOUGHT? that's what we are all here for.



Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:09:08 PM EDT
The steel penetrator in M885 is there to keep the bullet from deforming before it can "penetrate a standard NATO helmet at 600 M." It's mass contribution to the projectile is exactly the difference between the M885 bullet and the M193 bullet. Interesting, eh?

Tungsten isn't the only high density metal used in projectiles, nor is it the most strategic or expensive. Depleted uranium is both denser and more strategic than tungsten, and we get that all at home.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:17:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
Thanx again for the help. I THOUGHT? that's what we are all here for.



I am NOT here to help you.

I am here to get laid by multiple hot chicks.

It just isnt' working out all the great yet, but I will keep ya posted.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:19:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Thanx again for the help. I THOUGHT? that's what we are all here for.



I am NOT here to help you.

I am here to get laid by multiple hot chicks.

It just isnt' working out all the great yet, but I will keep ya posted.




+999999999^10
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