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Posted: 2/6/2006 1:24:21 PM EDT
anybody know the fragmentation range/minimum fragmentation velocity of hornady TAP .308? especially the 155gr load.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:17:48 PM EDT
Have never seen or heard of reduced velocity or extended range testing of the 155 AMAX. Would love to see some though.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:49:48 PM EDT
They stopped testing it at 300 yards because they felt most LE engagements would not be any further out than that. So it's safe to say 300 yards. I have the data some where but I can't remember where I put it. I just saw it the other day...
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:57:51 PM EDT
300 yards out of how long a barrel? would a 24" police sniper rifle vs a 16" paratrooper battle rifle make much of a difference? sort of like an M16A2 vs an M4
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:03:13 PM EDT
I remember seeing a table that showed the minimum velocity for fragmentation and the range at which it stopped fragmenting. It was over 400m from a 22-24 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:13:29 PM EDT
here is some specs from the TAP LE catalog

155gr

M1A Scout 18" barrel 1/11 twist
2623fps / total penetration 14"/ entry .5"/ depth to max cavity 5.25"/ max temp cavity 7.25"/ retained weight 118.4gr/ frag% 18%

I have a few other specs from other rifles and different twist if you want them
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:57:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 7:12:02 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]
only 18% fragmentation? i could have sword the gel tests i saw showed far more fragmentation. then again, maybe they were from a longer barrel.

ETA here's the pic i was thinking of, unfortunately it doesn't have frag %:




Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:23:24 PM EDT
I agree 18% sounds like crap.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:35:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 8:37:35 PM EDT by jmart]

Originally Posted By DevL:
I agree 18% sounds like crap.



Why? Are you doubting the retained weight figure?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:40:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By DevL:
I agree 18% sounds like crap.



Why? Are you doubting the retained weight figure?



i think he just expected more fragmentation, i mean M193 gives 50-60% fragmentation, i don't see why we should expect any less from these uber tactical TAP .308 loads.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:58:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By DevL:
I agree 18% sounds like crap.



Why? Are you doubting the retained weight figure?



i think he just expected more fragmentation, i mean M193 gives 50-60% fragmentation, i don't see why we should expect any less from these uber tactical TAP .308 loads.



I look at it just the opposite. I don't understand why all folks assume just because 5.56 fragments, that in order for any other load to be effective, it must also fragment? Anyone have any data on .50 BMG? What's it's penetration, fragmentatioin %, neck length, etc?

Now, having said that, I'll completely contradict myself -- How can a Horn .308 TAP 110 grain be so ineffective? My god, it just blows up on contact, neck length is non-existant, it has to be one of the most inferior round going. Anyone carrying it is deluding themselves and simply asking for trouble.

If you want a good round, you need to get your hands on that ultra-heavyweight 5.56 stuff, you know, that stuff that weighs something like 100 grains. It's clearly superior to 75/77 grain OTM, but for a variety of practical considerations, it's just not available and/or compatible with many AR platforms. But don't bother with that .308 110 TAP stuff, it's no good. And heaven forbid, 155 TAP, that would be all wrong!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:04:14 PM EDT
155 grain TAP is one of the most lethal pills ever designed.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:12:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
only 18% fragmentation? i could have sword the gel tests i saw showed far more fragmentation. then again, maybe they were from a longer barrel.

ETA here's the pic i was thinking of, unfortunately it doesn't have frag %:

members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/556_68_762_comparison.jpg





out of a 20" 1/12" Steyr SSG- frag % for 155gr is 33%

out of a 24" 1/10" Savage and a 25.25" 1/12" Winchester 70 Heavy Barrel- frag % for 155gr is 41% (Hornady says that stats for both these rifles will be similar)
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:56:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I agree 18% sounds like crap.



I've got the Hornady testing in front of me.

18" barrel (M1A Scout)
the 155gr had 24% fragmentation, the 168gr had 18% fragmentation.

20" barrel (Steyr SSG)
the 155gr had 33% fragmentation, the 168gr had 38% fragmentation.

24" barrel (Savage)
the 155gr had 33% fragmentation, the 168gr had 38% fragmentation. *Same as 20"
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:02:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:
I look at it just the opposite. I don't understand why all folks assume just because 5.56 fragments, that in order for any other load to be effective, it must also fragment?


No rounds NEEDs fragmentation to be effective. Fragmentaion ENHANCES effectiveness far beyond what the rounds physical size could do with just yawing or expanding.


Anyone have any data on .50 BMG? What's it's penetration, fragmentatioin %, neck length, etc?

Which load?


How can a Horn .308 TAP 110 grain be so ineffective?

It's not 'ineffective' it just doesn't meet the minium penetraion requirements as outlined by the FBI and the IWBA. For many shots it would be very 'effective' but on other's it just won't cut the mustard. Might as well use the 155gr which will do the job regardless of the shot angle.


And heaven forbid, 155 TAP, that would be all wrong!

?? WTF 155gr is often shown as one of the best rounds because it fragments. A 155gr fragmenting 33% has as roughly as much material fragmenting as in the entire 55gr M193 round, PLUS 100gr 'core' left for deep penetration....
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:12:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 8:03:24 AM EDT by 556Cliff]
Hay Forest, how come a .308 loaded with 110gr V-MAX won't penetrate to the minimum 12" but 6.8 loaded with 110gr V-MAX will?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:27:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DevL:
I agree 18% sounds like crap.



I've got the Hornady testing in front of me.

18" barrel (M1A Scout)
the 155gr had 24% fragmentation, the 168gr had 18% fragmentation.

20" barrel (Steyr SSG)
the 155gr had 33% fragmentation, the 168gr had 38% fragmentation.

24" barrel (Savage)
the 155gr had 33% fragmentation, the 168gr had 38% fragmentation. *Same as 20"



This seems to be more what I remembered the testing being like for shorter barrels using 155 vs 168 grain loads. Interesting the 168 is so effective yet the performance drops off so quickly as velocity decreases. It makes me wonder if the 110 from a very short .308 barrel say 16" or less would not have a reduced % of fragmentation and therefore penetrate deeper because of retained core mass thus making it the ideal round for 13-16" AR-10/SCAR-H type platforms.

I also wonder what the 155 Scenar bullets do in ballistic gel since they have a better BC than 175s yet allow for enhanced velocity and have the entire front half of the bullet as an air pocket/open cavity.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:33:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 556Cliff:
Hay Forest, how come a .308 loaded with 110gr A-MAX won't penetrate to the minimum 12" but 6.8 loaded with 110gr V-MAX will?


Different bullet construction (length, diameter, jacket thickness...).

Which is why you need to test individual loads.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:41:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By DevL:
I agree 18% sounds like crap.



I've got the Hornady testing in front of me.

18" barrel (M1A Scout)
the 155gr had 24% fragmentation, the 168gr had 18% fragmentation.

20" barrel (Steyr SSG)
the 155gr had 33% fragmentation, the 168gr had 38% fragmentation.

24" barrel (Savage)
the 155gr had 33% fragmentation, the 168gr had 38% fragmentation. *Same as 20"



thanks, thats the info i wanted. very interesting how there's such a big difference between 18 and 20 but not 20 and 24.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:57:29 PM EDT
The Hornady 155gr AMAX used in Hornady TAP fragments reliably down to 1650fps. Between 1450-1650 fragmentation occurs unreliably. Below 1450fps it typically does not fragment.
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