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Posted: 2/1/2006 12:32:36 AM EDT
Just so I'm clear, there's no place for non-LEO to readily find this for sale?

Can individual officers order it direct from Hornady?

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 2:13:18 AM EDT
Correct and Yes.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:41:43 AM EDT
Thanks. Is Kathy McHale still the rep to talk to?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:46:33 AM EDT
I believe that is her, the female reps name escapes me.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:48:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Correct and Yes.



Can't you get it from Cabela's?

(or is this true 5.56mm TAP? I note the Cabela's TAP is marked ".223"... This could be the difference)
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 9:14:34 AM EDT by twonami]
midway carries it in .223 but not 5.56
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:10:35 AM EDT
IIRC the catalog number of the true 5.56 75gr TAP is 8126N. And the only way to order it is for any LEO to call Kathy at Hornady directly, and order 200 or more rounds. hinking.gif

Both the "Red" and "Black" box versions of TAP and/or TAP-FPD are .223 only.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:24:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlueMushrooms:
IIRC the catalog number of the true 5.56 75gr TAP is 8126N. And the only way to order it is for any LEO to call Kathy at Hornady directly, and order 200 or more rounds.



Is this due to legality or company policy???

TS
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:26:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By BlueMushrooms:
IIRC the catalog number of the true 5.56 75gr TAP is 8126N. And the only way to order it is for any LEO to call Kathy at Hornady directly, and order 200 or more rounds.



Is this due to legality or company policy???

TS



company policy
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:30:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By BlueMushrooms:
IIRC the catalog number of the true 5.56 75gr TAP is 8126N. And the only way to order it is for any LEO to call Kathy at Hornady directly, and order 200 or more rounds.



Is this due to legality or company policy???

TS



company policy



Then that's just wrong...

TS
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:06:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 11:07:02 AM EDT by dvo]

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
Originally Posted By BlueMushrooms:
IIRC the catalog number of the true 5.56 75gr TAP is 8126N. And the only way to order it is for any LEO to call Kathy at Hornady directly, and order 200 or more rounds. hinking.gif
hr


Is this due to legality or company policy???

TShr


company policy



Then that's just wrong...



Agreed. There seem to be a number of companies that sell so-called "special" items to LE only. I really dislike the "them vs. us" attitude that these policies tend to foster. Not good for LE in the long-run. JMHO.

Jeff

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:17:58 PM EDT
I was at a rifle class Hornady offered at thier Grand Island plant. I had a chance to talk to some of the instructors and a few guys who work on the LE side of Hornady. They acknowledged that its not a popular policy even within the company, but necessary...at least to them. One of them cited the original Winchester Black Talon fiasco for thier descision to restrict some TAP. They felt publicity like that may make them appear to be irresponsible and hurt thier LE business. They were concerned about negative publicity should there be a high profile incident with thier ammo.
Hornady TAP is extremely effective ammo and sensationalist media programs may pervert the truth and tarnish the compaines repuatation and infringe upon further LE sales. While I hate this mentality, since cops are CIVILIANS, just like you and I, I can empathize with thier point of view.

He was quick to mention that they did introduce TAP-FPD which is identical to thier LEO only as a way to circumvent some of the concerns. Making thier LE ammo availible to civilians is more than Federal or Winchester has done. If you are willing to sell your ammo to civilians, I don't see the point in spending the extra money an an extra product line and componets. I guess this gives the illusion of "responsibility"....to me, it smacks of communism. I guess adding the extra FPS to the 75 grn TAP would make it so lethal that only LEOs can handle it, which is why us lowly subjects are stuck with .223 pressure. At least they offer TAP-FPD, but I think restricting otherwise legal ammo is un-constitutional and a betrayal of gun owners. Just though I would share what some of these guys were saying about their company and the situation.....
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:33:49 PM EDT
What about those of us with FFL's? Is it available for us to purchase?

If that's possible, I could sell the TAP to LEO's 1% of the time and us lowly citizens 99% of the time.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:50:57 PM EDT

Anybody know how much they are charging to individual LEOs?

I'd be interested if it is not ridiculously high $$$.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:31:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MP906:
Anybody know how much they are charging to individual LEOs?

I'd be interested if it is not ridiculously high $$$.




I am not an LEO, so I don't know exactly how much they pay. But, I have purchased 5.56 TAP more than once from LEO's at around $130 for 200 rounds. I don't think they made too much on the deal, but if they did I don't mind. Still a good price, in my opinion.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:27:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By newbe:
What about those of us with FFL's? Is it available for us to purchase?

If that's possible, I could sell the TAP to LEO's 1% of the time and us lowly citizens 99% of the time.



If that was the case I have a feeling it would turn up for sale occasionally. Although you could always call and ask.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:31:00 PM EDT

$130/200!!!!

F*ck that! Is it really that much better than Q3131A? No way.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:30:54 AM EDT
from my understanding it cost LEO $110 for a 200 round case deliverd. expensive yes, but it is most likely the best performing round on the market.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:22:34 AM EDT

For $550/case it better come w/ a TV!



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:27:40 AM EDT
The policy makes absolutely no fucking sense.

Until the bullets home-in on people and can turn corners to chase down their targets I see no reason why it should be sold to LEO's and not civilians.

Like anyone is actually going to see a difference in a human corpse riddled with dozens of rounds of .223 75gr Hornady TAP or .556 75gr Hornady TAP.

Fuckin rediculous. It's not like one is guaranteed more lethal than the other. It's all about shot placement anyway.


- rem
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:44:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The policy makes absolutely no fucking sense.

Until the bullets home-in on people and can turn corners to chase down their targets I see no reason why it should be sold to LEO's and not civilians.

Like anyone is actually going to see a difference in a human corpse riddled with dozens of rounds of .223 75gr Hornady TAP or .556 75gr Hornady TAP.

Fuckin rediculous. It's not like one is guaranteed more lethal than the other. It's all about shot placement anyway.


- rem




It just dawned on me (dummy me) that these LEO only type products are a marketing tactic designed to make money for companies. LE agencies seem to have loads of money for expensive toys. I mean...why buy a $700 Remington 700 HB in .308 when you can spend $3000 on a really cool super sniper rifle? Don't you see lots of expensive goodies being marketed to law enforcement these days? I just see LE only ammo as an extension of that. Make the agencies think they are getting something really special...so special that it can't be sold to mere civilians.

Please understand that I don't harbor any resentment toward law enforcement. Just an observation on my part. I'm not sure that the potential for lawsuits has anything to do with limiting 5.56 TAP to LEO only.

Jeff
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 11:16:11 AM EDT
Whats the big deal about it? Is it armor piercing or something? I was looking at their website and they had some moly coated bullets so i thought maybe that was similar to teflon coated bullets. Either way, a bullet is going to put a hole in something.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 12:04:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
Whats the big deal about it? Is it armor piercing or something? I was looking at their website and they had some moly coated bullets so i thought maybe that was similar to teflon coated bullets. Either way, a bullet is going to put a hole in something.



There is no big deal, and absolutely no viable reason not to sell it to civilians. The only reason they have this policy is because when this ammo was dreamed up, it was marketed on a LE angle due to its superior performance. They can't risk the publicity of this dangerous, super-killer 'Law Enforcement' ammo getting into the hands of mere peasants.

IMO, it's a direct result of the militarization of the police in this country. Everything they do now is 'super-killer-uber-tactical-ninja,' and unfortunately, the stigma attached to this has bled over into the equipment that they use, as well. Slapping 'Tactical Application Police' on the ammo means that it's forever off limits, because mere peasants aren't trained well enough to handle it.

The only way we have these things is after Hornady comes along and makes their new 'civilian' TAP, and go to great pains to make sure that it is differentiated in advertising, and marked differently than the LE stuff, while espousing to us in the know that it 'works the same.'

Which therefore begs the question, 'If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why not just sell it as a duck, instead of bleaching its feathers and calling it a goose?'
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:33:34 PM EDT
For $550/case it better come w/ a TV..[/qoute]

It is priced per round like every other factory match-grade ammo. The TAP, both in the SAMMI and Nato loadings are match-grade ammo loadings. The BH 75gr blue box is a less expensive pratice round. It is not blasting ammo.

[qoute] There is no big deal, and absolutely no viable reason not to sell it to civilians.[/qoute]

If you were to look at the caliber (caliber =quality and knowledge, for those that need clarification) of the ammo related posts on this site alone on this subject (NATO v/s SAMMI), there are enough idiots that would run the NATO loading in their AR clone SAMMI chamber and screem like hell when expected sh* happened. I don't like the policy either. If more of the post became more professional and not just people bitching, the maybe Hornaday would change the policy.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:26:53 PM EDT

Oh, I thought we were talking about the 55gr load.

For 75gr, that is more like it.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:58:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 9:00:00 PM EDT by DevL]
I paid $110 for mine delivered as well per $200. I kept my mouth shut about price for a while in case a friend who was an LEO wanted to purchase the ammo and resell it in the EE. He has not elected to do so.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 3:54:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 3:59:32 PM EDT by SOSNBA]
The 5.56mm version makes a 14.5" weapon perform like a 20" weapon with SAAMI pressure rounds from a velocity/fragmentation standpoint.

The 5.56mm version adds about 200fps or about 50-75yards to the fragmentation range, vs SAAMI pressure, when fired from a 20" weapon.

While difficult to get, it's probably the best, commerically-loaded SD round you can get in .223/5.56mm.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 4:28:36 PM EDT
Are the projectiles in the 75 gr TAP their standard 75 gr OTM projectile?

I believe the 75 gr OTM bullet has a cannelure. Other than a crimped/sealed primer, one could much more economicaly reload their own (granted they were set up for reloading).

Yes...? No...?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:09:59 PM EDT
I thought the LEO sales of TAP had to do with a taxation issue. As I understood it <I'm not an expert> that they tracked their sales of TAP that were not subject to sales tax via this ammo. Is this just a rumor or viable?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:29:13 PM EDT
I remember seeing someone post a chart showing the TAP Red box vs. new TAP Black box ammo. They chrono'd everything in a couple of rifles. Seemed that the Black box stuff was a little hotter. If my memory serves me correct they used 5.56 75g RED vs. .223 75g BLACK. The numbers were a little higher for the BLACK box ammo. I know that doesn't make sense but those were his results.

I wonder if someone can find that post or if anyone has real world (not manf spec) chrono'd the two rounds?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:49:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 8:03:58 PM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By JohnLINY:
I remember seeing someone post a chart showing the TAP Red box vs. new TAP Black box ammo. They chrono'd everything in a couple of rifles. Seemed that the Black box stuff was a little hotter. If my memory serves me correct they used 5.56 75g RED vs. .223 75g BLACK. The numbers were a little higher for the BLACK box ammo. I know that doesn't make sense but those were his results.

I wonder if someone can find that post or if anyone has real world (not manf spec) chrono'd the two rounds?



The red box ammunition used in that test was the regular "civillian" TAP, not the LEO high pressure loads.

Hornady TAP: red box versus black box chronograph data
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:33:40 PM EDT
link

At the end of that thread, there's some mention of chrono results for the 5.56 TAP vs. .223 TAP. I think someone mentioned getting an additional 150fps out of a 14.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:32:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By JohnLINY:
I remember seeing someone post a chart showing the TAP Red box vs. new TAP Black box ammo. They chrono'd everything in a couple of rifles. Seemed that the Black box stuff was a little hotter. If my memory serves me correct they used 5.56 75g RED vs. .223 75g BLACK. The numbers were a little higher for the BLACK box ammo. I know that doesn't make sense but those were his results.

I wonder if someone can find that post or if anyone has real world (not manf spec) chrono'd the two rounds?



The red box ammunition used in that test was the regular "civillian" TAP, not the LEO high pressure loads.

Hornady TAP: red box versus black box chronograph data



Yep that was the thread! I posted in there too. My question is it really worth the hassle for us avg non LEO guys to try and get the 5.56. Seems the .223 will do the trick. The extra fps I think would come into play in terms of fragmentation. Since the 75g TAP round doesn't rely on frag for stopping power is it worth it?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:37:52 AM EDT
I bought a case a while ago, and have been hoarding it. The little bit I shot is exceedingly accurate.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:50:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SOSNBA:
The 5.56mm version makes a 14.5" weapon perform like a 20" weapon with SAAMI pressure rounds from a velocity/fragmentation standpoint.

The 5.56mm version adds about 200fps or about 50-75yards to the fragmentation range, vs SAAMI pressure, when fired from a 20" weapon.

While difficult to get, it's probably the best, commerically-loaded SD round you can get in .223/5.56mm.



Does the TAP round rely on fragmentation to do its job on humans? How effective is TAP as a hunting round when hunting animals other than humans?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:50:08 AM EDT
I am trying to find the best home defense round for my Bushmaster rifle with a 16" barrel. It appears that Hornady's 75 gr TAP is the best. The 55 & 60 gr bullets have a plastic tip whereas the 75 gr is a BT HP. I was surprised that the 75 gr achieved a fragmentation % almost as great as the 55 gr at much slower velocity:

www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I have been reading the thread about the difference between the TAP for LE and civilians. I decided to call Hornady. According to their rep., there is no difference in the bullet. He said the tests were simply performed at different barrel lengths.

In any case, is it the consensus that the 75 gr TAP is the most effective bullet for home defense in the rifle above if one is only concerned about stopping power and not concerned about unwanted wall penetration?

Does the 75 gr HP have any feeding problems compared to the plastic tip bullets?

Thanks much.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:02:02 PM EDT
The only issue with Hornady 75 gr. NATO pressure TAP is just that, NATO pressure is greater than SAAMI standards. It's a liability thing. They even make police agencies sign a 5.56 NATO waiver in order to purchase the ammo. I found this out at the HOrnady ballistic seminar I attended where they provided us with waivers to sign if our agency wanted to purchase the rounds. Going outside of SAAMI specs is dangerous for ammo makers, ergo, only sales to govt. users who sign liability waivers and release Hornady from any legal difficulties.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:20:54 PM EDT
FWIW...I am a LEO and called Hornady to ask about the TAP FPD vs the LE Tap because it's easier to find the FPD. I was told by Hornady that the only difference between the two was the case used. The primers, powder and bullets are the same as the LE version.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:21:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vojta:
The only issue with Hornady 75 gr. NATO pressure TAP is just that, NATO pressure is greater than SAAMI standards. It's a liability thing.



On all fronts, it is NATO pressure v/s SAMMI. Many LE agencies have bought SAMMI chambered AR. Why? No clue, other than the lowest bidder. Hence, the sign-off requirement. If you buy XM193/M193 or surplus in a NATO loading and KB yourself. Lots of luck sueing Uncle Suger or a foreign enity. Don't like it, but it IS understandable.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:31:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:31:43 PM EDT by A96HondaAccordEX]

Originally Posted By phylodog:
FWIW...I am a LEO and called Hornady to ask about the TAP FPD vs the LE Tap because it's easier to find the FPD. I was told by Hornady that the only difference between the two was the case used. The primers, powder and bullets are the same as the LE version.



Maybe just a little bit more powder?

Somebody should buy each and pull and weigh each component.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:27:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By phylodog:
FWIW...I am a LEO and called Hornady to ask about the TAP FPD vs the LE Tap because it's easier to find the FPD. I was told by Hornady that the only difference between the two was the case used. The primers, powder and bullets are the same as the LE version.



There is LE .223 TAP and LE 5.56 TAP dont confuse yourself.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:19:55 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:52:00 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:26:14 PM EDT
Thanks for the info but this makes no sense. The chrono data they give for 5.56 vs. .223 is different, therefore the charge has to be different. If the pressures are the same as you state, why would they market a SAAMI spec bullet at 5.56, and have LEOs sign a waiver stating this ammo will be used in 5.56 rifles only?

I hope you are correct but it makes no sense. the data speaks otherwise.


Originally Posted By phylodog:
FWIW...I am a LEO and called Hornady to ask about the TAP FPD vs the LE Tap because it's easier to find the FPD. I was told by Hornady that the only difference between the two was the case used. The primers, powder and bullets are the same as the LE version.

Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:28:28 PM EDT
If anybody has any 5.56 Hornady TAP for sale I'd be happy to pay a premium. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 1:14:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
Thanks for the info but this makes no sense. The chrono data they give for 5.56 vs. .223 is different, therefore the charge has to be different. If the pressures are the same as you state, why would they market a SAAMI spec bullet at 5.56, and have LEOs sign a waiver stating this ammo will be used in 5.56 rifles only?

I hope you are correct but it makes no sense. the data speaks otherwise.


Originally Posted By phylodog:
FWIW...I am a LEO and called Hornady to ask about the TAP FPD vs the LE Tap because it's easier to find the FPD. I was told by Hornady that the only difference between the two was the case used. The primers, powder and bullets are the same as the LE version.





I would guess that he was referring to the two different types of .223 75gr TAP, not 5.56 vs .223. One comes in a black box with a black, nickel-coated case, the other comes in a red box with regular brass cases.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 4:37:41 PM EDT
Thats what I said 5 lines up...
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 6:04:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 6:14:47 PM EDT by paulosantos]

Originally Posted By MP906:
Anybody know how much they are charging to individual LEOs?

I'd be interested if it is not ridiculously high $$$.




I paid $100 for 200 rounds for 5.56 TAP from Hornady. I also spoke with Hornady several times and they told me the velocity was the same from the .223 aTAP nd the 5.56 TAP, which doesn't make sense. I also had to sign the waiver when I purchased the 5.56 and it is a liability issue. They don't want anyone with a .223 chamber shooting 5.56 rounds.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:25:52 AM EDT
Who at Hornady told you 5.56 and .223 TAP had the same velocity? I think you must have misunderstood what they were saying.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 2:18:18 AM EDT
My understanding is that there are 2 different types of TAP ammo. One for general sale to the public and an LEO version. The LEO ammo supposedly has the same pressures as the 5.56.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:32:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stang951:
My understanding is that there are 2 different types of TAP ammo. One for general sale to the public and an LEO version. The LEO ammo supposedly has the same pressures as the 5.56.



There are 3 types with a 75 gr bullet,

#80268, comes in a black box with a black, nickel-coated case, and is loaded to .223 pressure.

#80265, comes in a red box with regular brass cases, is also loaded to .223 pressure.

#8126N, comes in a red box with brass cases, and is loaded to 5.56 pressure.

#80265 is loosely considered "LE" and #80268 is considered "civilian", although I think you can buy all of the #80268 you want from Hornady dealers. The consensus seems to be that there is no difference between the two. The #8126N is only drop shipped direct from Hornady and they will ask for your LE ID before selling it to you. FWIW, #80265 and #8126N is the same price if you order from Hornady.

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