Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:38:03 PM EDT
How do these compare in regards to terminal ballistics, velocity and fragmentation range?? I'm tried doing some research and couldn't find that much. I'm really looking for a suitable replacement for Mk262 Mod1. Any thoughts?
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 2:49:05 AM EDT
Its WAY slower and you will reduce the fragmenting range over 50 yards. It is by no means a "suitable replacement" if you mean another 5.56 pressure load. Then only other 5.56 pressure load would be TAP 5.56 which is LE only so wither ask a cop friend to order or look for some in the EE.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:19:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Its WAY slower and you will reduce the fragmenting range over 50 yards. It is by no means a "suitable replacement" if you mean another 5.56 pressure load. Then only other 5.56 pressure load would be TAP 5.56 which is LE only so wither ask a cop friend to order or look for some in the EE.



DevL-------- so we can get Mk262 Mod 1 ammo? and if so, do you know where?

I'd like to have a thousand rounds squirreled away.

I was under the impression the Black Hills 77gr BTHP was "the same".........but I'm no ammo genius.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:44:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
I was under the impression the Black Hills 77gr BTHP was "the same".........but I'm no ammo genius.



It's the same bullet (sans cannalure), but at a lower velocity and IIRC lacks the staked primers of Mk262. Cabellas and Fulton Armory occasionally have Mk262 Mod 1 cosmetic seconds available for purchase.

But you really should be looking at the 75gr Hornady or Black Hills loads. While not 'quite' as accurate as Mk262 (are you really taking 600m precision shots?) the Black Hills loads have the cannalure (to prevent setback) and the 75gr projectile exibits better terminal performance than the 77gr SMK (as it yaws & starts to fragment much earlier). Add to the fact the 75gr loading are much CHEAPER than the 77gr loadings you end up being better off with the 75gr load.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 12:03:17 PM EDT
Thanks Forest.

I will give the BH a try


BTW: Does your description suggest "the 75gr yaws and fragments earlier" and is therefore the "better option"? If so, the theory being it is a more destructive round? Or do I have it backward?

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 1:17:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
BTW: Does your description suggest "the 75gr yaws and fragments earlier" and is therefore the "better option"? If so, the theory being it is a more destructive round? Or do I have it backward?




Is it 'More destructive'? I don't know about that, however it does it's dammage at the optimal depths for defensive shooting, while the SMK fragmentation is more delayed.

I think it's 'better' because it's wound profile is much closer to optimal (early yaw & fragmentation while reaching the 12" minimum), it has the cannalure to avoid setback, and it's cheaper than Mk262.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 3:55:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By books:
How do these compare in regards to terminal ballistics, velocity and fragmentation range?? I'm tried doing some research and couldn't find that much. I'm really looking for a suitable replacement for Mk262 Mod1. Any thoughts?



I think any of the 75/77 grain loadings are a fine choice whether they are 5.56 or .223 pressure.

I remember DevL saying that a 11.5 inch barrel is optimum for self defense. Therefore my .223 pressure ammo will be as hot as his 5.56 out of my 16" barrel. Just not as handy.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:17:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
I was under the impression the Black Hills 77gr BTHP was "the same".........but I'm no ammo genius.



It's the same bullet (sans cannalure), but at a lower velocity and IIRC lacks the staked primers of Mk262. Cabellas and Fulton Armory occasionally have Mk262 Mod 1 cosmetic seconds available for purchase.

But you really should be looking at the 75gr Hornady or Black Hills loads. While not 'quite' as accurate as Mk262 (are you really taking 600m precision shots?) the Black Hills loads have the cannalure (to prevent setback) and the 75gr projectile exibits better terminal performance than the 77gr SMK (as it yaws & starts to fragment much earlier). Add to the fact the 75gr loading are much CHEAPER than the 77gr loadings you end up being better off with the 75gr load.



Just curious, how does the fragmentation range of the 75gr. match up with the Mk 262?

I have a few boxes of each; I'd just like to stock up on the (MUCH) cheaper stuff if at all possible.

Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:23:09 PM EDT
MK262 fragments to about 170 yds, where as the civilian 75's frag to about 150. Assuming a 16"barrel.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:53:41 PM EDT
5.56mm Hornady 75gr TAP will fragment to around 225 yards out of a 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:43:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SOSNBA:
5.56mm Hornady 75gr TAP will fragment to around 225 yards out of a 16" barrel.



Source?

TIA.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:54:45 PM EDT
77/75 ammo at .223 pressure is CLOSE to 50 yards from an 11.5" 100 yards from a 14.5" and 150 from a 16" (this is very approximate and depends on particualr loading, temperature and barrel) the 5.56 pressure adds about 50 yards of fragmenting range to those figures (also very approximate but gives you a general idea) A 16" barrel with Black Hills 75 grain ammo will fragement further than an 11.5" with 5.56 pressure 75 grain TAP. I cannot fathom the circumstance I would need to use a rifle for self defense beyond 100 yards which is further than even the average police sniper shooting thus why I like the 11.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:35:38 PM EDT
source = hornady's data...200yards for M4, 225yards for 16".
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:15:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
77/75 ammo at .223 pressure is CLOSE to 50 yards from an 11.5" 100 yards from a 14.5" and 150 from a 16" (this is very approximate and depends on particualr loading, temperature and barrel) the 5.56 pressure adds about 50 yards of fragmenting range to those figures (also very approximate but gives you a general idea) A 16" barrel with Black Hills 75 grain ammo will fragement further than an 11.5" with 5.56 pressure 75 grain TAP. I cannot fathom the circumstance I would need to use a rifle for self defense beyond 100 yards which is further than even the average police sniper shooting thus why I like the 11.5" barrel.



I agree and now you have me longing for an SBR you jerk!!!! How much does one of those SBR stamp things cost? And how do you get one?

I was just teasing when I called you a jerk, I'm pretty sure you figured that out though.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:20:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SOSNBA:
source = hornady's data...200yards for M4, 225yards for 16".



I got Hornady's data book on the TAP right in front of me (dated 1999 with data taken at 74degF 1800'ASL)

Page 10 is the 14.5" barrel (SIG) with a PUBLISHED range of 125yards. However, if you look at the ranges for the other barrel lengths (as to get the floor velocity for fragmentation) you'll find the expected range should be 150yards. Is there something with Sig's 14.5" barrel or was that particular batch just funky? I don't know. MV was listed as 2518fps.

Moving to page 11 (Bushmaster 1:9 twist 16" barrel) we find the published range of 200 yards (with a MV of 2616fps)

The 20" on page 14 (Steyer AUG with a MV of 2653) has a listed range of 225yards. Then on page 15 it has a Colt 20" (1:7 twist) with a MV of 2663 and again a published range of 225yards

FYI p16 shows a 300y range for the 75 gr from a Savage 24" bolt action.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:24:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 4:31:34 AM EDT by SOSNBA]
Forest,

My data is about a year old and I got it directly from Hornady prior to ordering my first couple cases of 5.56mm 75gr TAP. It also specifies 2660fps and 2720fps MV from a 14.5" and 16" weapon, respectively. No data was provided for a 20" weapon with the 5.56mm load, though the .223 SAAMI load out of a 20" barrel was nearly identical to the 5.56mm version in 5.56mm loading (all 75gr). FWIW, my most recent ammo went 2848fps out of my 20" A2. I will also try it this Spring out of my LE6920.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:57:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 5:58:58 AM EDT by XSentinel]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
I was under the impression the Black Hills 77gr BTHP was "the same".........but I'm no ammo genius.



It's the same bullet (sans cannalure), but at a lower velocity and IIRC lacks the staked primers of Mk262. Cabellas and Fulton Armory occasionally have Mk262 Mod 1 cosmetic seconds available for purchase.

But you really should be looking at the 75gr Hornady or Black Hills loads. While not 'quite' as accurate as Mk262 (are you really taking 600m precision shots?) the Black Hills loads have the cannalure (to prevent setback) and the 75gr projectile exibits better terminal performance than the 77gr SMK (as it yaws & starts to fragment much earlier). Add to the fact the 75gr loading are much CHEAPER than the 77gr loadings you end up being better off with the 75gr load.


Do you happen to have a model number for either (preferably both) of these loads by any chance? I would greately appreciate it so I can make sure we are talking about the same thing and I don't waste my time with the wrong thing.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:19:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 6:46:18 AM EDT by brillo]
I don't think you're going to find any model numbers for Black Hills ammo. The Black Hills web sites list only descriptions for their ammo, their dealers use the same descriptions and the ammo boxes have the lot number on an inside end flap with only the description on the box.

There's also a good discussion on the MK262 with Jeff Hoffmann (Black Hills) at Tactical Forums.

.223 Remington Black Hills New Ammo:

40 Gr. NoslerBallistic Tip®

50 Gr. V-Max

52 Gr. Match HP

55 Gr. Soft Point

60 Gr. Nosler Partition

60 Gr. Soft Point

60 Gr. V-Max

68 Gr. "Heavy" Match HP

69 Gr. Sierra MatchKing

73 Gr. Berger BTHP

75 Gr. "Heavy" Match HP

77 Gr. Sierra MatchKing
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:47:06 AM EDT
Ah. Well that makes sense then. Nobody puts a model number because there is no model number.

What I was referring to is in the Ammo Oracle where a few of the authors write "For self-defense I have moved from the 69 grain Sierra Match King to the 77 grain Nosler NATO loading from Black Hills." I was trying to figure out what that is since on the Black-Hills web site I don't see any listing for the "77gr Nosler NATO" so I am trying to figure out which one that IS listed is the one these guys are referring to.

Hopefully one of the authors will jump in here and enlighten me. :)
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:44:32 AM EDT
The Nosler NATO load was offered only through Georgia Precision. He did one batch then stole the money for the second batch from AR15.com members before being banned. I got burned for $900 worth of ammo. It was only 2MOA ammo but had the short neck of the 75 grain loads. All their 77 grain loads use Sierra bullets.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:58:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 11:01:34 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By SOSNBA:
source = hornady's data...200yards for M4, 225yards for 16".



I got Hornady's data book on the TAP right in front of me (dated 1999 with data taken at 74degF 1800'ASL)

Page 10 is the 14.5" barrel (SIG) with a PUBLISHED range of 125yards. However, if you look at the ranges for the other barrel lengths (as to get the floor velocity for fragmentation) you'll find the expected range should be 150yards. Is there something with Sig's 14.5" barrel or was that particular batch just funky? I don't know. MV was listed as 2518fps.

Moving to page 11 (Bushmaster 1:9 twist 16" barrel) we find the published range of 200 yards (with a MV of 2616fps)

The 20" on page 14 (Steyer AUG with a MV of 2653) has a listed range of 225yards. Then on page 15 it has a Colt 20" (1:7 twist) with a MV of 2663 and again a published range of 225yards

FYI p16 shows a 300y range for the 75 gr from a Savage 24" bolt action.



You are correct the 16" barrel with 75 grain NATO pressure TAP should be 200 yards and the 2518 should be 150 yards. I wonder if they actually shot loads at the ranges published and just reported the results or if this was theoretical based on a fragmentation floor which appears to bae around 2150 from their numbers. I know it can fragment as low as 2100 fps and has violent fragmentation at around 2300-2400 fps.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 1:38:56 PM EDT
FOREST Thank You for the Tip on BH 75 I got a small supply now! and to much BH77gr

Ive unloaded lots of military rounds and by far the 75gr BH aint going back!

I used my hammer until my arm fell off!

end up useing vise grips to pull the bullet!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:21:59 PM EDT
Anyone have a velocity of the MK262 load? I actually chrono'd some of the BH 77gr load yesterday, and it was averaging around 2565fps out of my 18" 1/8 twist barrel. Accuracy wasn't all that impressive, but I will be trying it in a different rifle.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:11:25 PM EDT

Anyone have a velocity of the MK262 load?




The ammo loaded with the 77 grain Nosler OTM is from the original ar15.com special group purchase. The rounds loaded with the Sierra 77 grain MATCH HP are Black Hills 2nds purchased from Cabela's.


Rounds were chronographed using an Oehler 35-P chronograph. Muzzle velocities were calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer software. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds.


Nosler
Sierra 2nds


Colt 20" A2 1:7" twist

2867 fps
2806 fps


Colt 16.1" M4 1:9" twist

2770 fps
2710 fps


Colt 14.5" M4 1:7" twist

2630 fps
2628 fps



For additional comparison I have chronogrpahed 6 different lots of 77 grain Federal Gold Medal ammo. The combined average muzzle velocity of all six lots was 2577 fps when fired from the same Colt 20" A2 barrel.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 9:05:35 AM EDT
...
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:55:02 AM EDT
Lucky

Do ya think BH will have more Blems out for sale?
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 1:20:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Lucky

Do ya think BH will have more Blems out for sale?



The Cabela's by me was out of them as of 1 pm today... Glad I already have a few boxes!

Got a few boxes of BH blue box 75s though.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 2:10:55 PM EDT
Yeah me to! 75 for now!

one of these days Im going hunting for the first time here in FL and kill a pig with the 75BH!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:31:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Molon:

Anyone have a velocity of the MK262 load?


home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/mk262.jpg

The ammo loaded with the 77 grain Nosler OTM is from the original ar15.com special group purchase. The rounds loaded with the Sierra 77 grain MATCH HP are Black Hills 2nds purchased from Cabela's.


Rounds were chronographed using an Oehler 35-P chronograph. Muzzle velocities were calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer software. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds.


Nosler
Sierra 2nds


Colt 20" A2 1:7" twist

2867 fps
2806 fps


Colt 16.1" M4 1:9" twist

2770 fps
2710 fps


Colt 14.5" M4 1:7" twist

2630 fps
2628 fps



For additional comparison I have chronogrpahed 6 different lots of 77 grain Federal Gold Medal ammo. The combined average muzzle velocity of all six lots was 2577 fps when fired from the same Colt 20" A2 barrel.



If I'm reading this correctly, you're telling me the mk262 has shown to be 300 fps faster than the federal gold medal. Holy crap. That's alot. If it was only as prevelant as wolf and costed that much too.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 6:32:23 AM EDT
Black Hills is cheaper than GOLD FEDERAL but you must already know that?
Top Top