Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 1/24/2006 12:45:57 PM EDT
I am guessing that this question is probably asked about a hundred times a day so please forgive me for asking it again but...
I really did try to find the answer all over this forum first. I swear. But it seems as though there is no clear consensus answer that I can find. So I thought that perhaps asking the question out right might get some kind of definitive consensus answer.

First I have a Colt AR15A2 carbine with 16" barrel and a 1:7 twist (model 6520). I am looking for the best all around ammo for storage and defense. This is not my target gun but I would like something that is reasonably accurate for the range for fun.

After lurking here and reading some of the similar posted questions I tried reading some long threads on the matter and the Ammo-Oracle article and the FAQs and the following is what I have come up with. Please tell me if I am wrong.

1. The military issues M193 and M855 ammo to our troops in general.
2. Best ammo for a rifle chambered in 5.56 (which mine is) with a 1:7 twist is military spec ammo due to higher velocities over commercial (civilian) ammo.
3. Fragmentation is preferred (in general) for 5.56 to be effective for self defense.
4. In order to have reliable fragmentation (especially out of a 16" barrel) you have to have the higher velocities of the military spec ammo, generally not found in the civilian version .223 ammo.
5. M193 is preferred because it has a greater chance of getting that needed velocity over M855, especially on shorter barrels.

If all of this is true then it would seem to me that the ammo I want is mil spec M193 ammo for general plinking, storing and self defense. Price is right and it should do nicely to be good enough for everything I need.

OK, problem is, if I understand correctly, that there is no ammo company that makes this mil-spec ammo for the civilian (commercial) market and we can no longer this stuff surplus from the government. So then it would seem that we are left with having to buy .223 commercially available ammo for our rifles which, if I understand correctly, will not fragment reliably due to its construction (no cannalure) and not developing sufficient velocity as compared to mil-spec.

So then if all this is true I am left with 2 questions...
1. Am I right in that we cannot get M193 mil-spec ammo from any US companies commercially at all?
2. If I am right then what commercially available civilian ammo can we get that will compare or be just as good or perform well?

I would prefer to be able to just go in to my local gun store and have him order some of this stuff so I don't want it to be too exotic or he won't do it because I will be the only one buying it and it will be too expensive. So I guess what I am looking for is a M193 alternative. Cheap enough to get a lot of to shoot a lot of and store yet develop the needed velocity and performance to be effective for self defense if needed.

Again, I am sorry for asking the often asked question one more time. I hope I phrased the question in a way that it has not been phrased before so as to make more of ao definitive answer so perhaps it will get asked less. Well we can hope :)
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 2:11:18 PM EDT
There are some false assumptions in there that you need to correct from various readings.

However, to clarify the availability:

- XM193 and XM193PD are seconds and thirds from military M193 runs. They can have wrong bullet set-backs, bad sealing, etc. etc. They should be loaded to M193 specs however. Personally, I don't trust them.

- Winchester Q3131A 5.56mm (not .223). Isreali (IMI) production 5.56mm pressure ammo.

- IMI M193, 5.56mm military ammo. Similar to Winchester

- Prvi Partisan / Wolf Gold 5.56mm. This is stuff that has not yet been reviewed, but should be similar to M193 spec ammo. Don't let the "Wolf" name fool you, as Prvi Partisan typically makes good stuff.

- Hornady TAP 5.56mm. 5.56mm pressures, but not mil-spec. Police spec designed for self-defense.

That's about all I can think of.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:20:52 PM EDT
Any 77 / 75 grain loading will outperform M193 even in .223 power. Problem is, it's more expensive. I will even go as far as to say the 68 / 69's are better too.

You can still find M193 ammo, it's just getting more expensive and harder to find.

Steve at ADCO is selling brand new M855 on stripper clips.

This is what I'm doing. I'm settling on Black Hills Blue 68 grain for my General Purpose load (meaning self defense / hunting / shooting further than CQB blasting), and using WWB Walmart 55's for plinking and CQB blasting or whatever kind of 55's that are cheap. Heck, I'll even send wolf downrange for fun stuff. The 68's are sold locally and they're the most reasonably priced. And of course the wwb is about the best deal going for brass ammo that's decent
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:23:04 PM EDT
Q3131 is now available in quantity
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:27:24 PM EDT
"If all of this is true then it would seem to me that the ammo I want is mil spec M193 ammo for general plinking, storing and self defense. Price is right and it should do nicely to be good enough for everything I need."

Winchester white box Q3131 is about as close to M193 in a commercial round as you are going to get. Loaded to mil-spec. velocity and sealed at the primer and maybe the case mouth. It is available and not too expensive. It also isn't surplus or defective in any way. I think that is the way to go given what you have written above.

Jeff
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:27:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:29:07 PM EDT by 2hawk]
Welcome to the site.

Be warned, if you hang around here too much you may end up with an expensive habit, aka BRD

You're on the right track, you may have to re-read ammo.oracle a couple of times, there's a lot of information there...

Pay attention to to the tacked threads at the top of every forum, and use the search feature. If you can't find the answer doing that, you probably have a pretty good question

Seems like most people are going to the OTM 68gr or heavier for defensive use, with the 75gr Hornady bullet being a favorite. Black Hills loads these, and Hornaday of course.

Check in on the ammunition forum often, it's on of the best ways to find out whose got the good deals, and I'm sure you'll find XM193 at a "decent" price if you're patient.

Good Shootin'!

ETA: good info in the posts above...
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:58:43 AM EDT
Thanks all for the input.

NoAim,
Which false assumptions do I make? If I am on the wrong track I want to know.

2hawk,
Yes, I did reread the ammo oracle article a few times. It was a lot to digest. In the end though I keep coming up with the same answers. That you should use military spec ammo for proper velocity in order to have reliable fragmentation AND that there is no commercially available substitute for that ammo on the market that is of the same quality and construction. If so that is why people are going to the heavier grains because that is the second best choice and is commercially available.

Do I have it right? If so then why are people going to the heavier loadings? What gives the heavier loadings better performance? Do they tend to fragment better at lower (commercial) speeds?
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:03:31 AM EDT
XS- I happen to like M193 myself, and have a couple of cases put up for long-term storage.

But I have the better part of a case of BHBB 75 gr. that I think would be better for any anticipated defensive use. More consistent fragmentation at lower velocities, and probably better consistency as far as quality goes.

Check the thread running concurrently: Hornady 75 GR BTHP

Your choice will be dictated by your requirments. Different ammo will offer a different set of advantages and disadvantages, so my best advice is to keep reading and think about your performance goals.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:27:18 AM EDT
My goals, for the purposes of this particular discussion, are to have a round that "performs" well for defense at ranges of 50 to under 150 yards. By "performs" I mean has a higher degree of ability to incapacitate an attacker.

Under 50 or so yards I would probably use a handgun and farther than 10 to 150 yds I would probably try to flee myself. Obviously I understand the basic other concepts of defense such as shot placement, etc... but all things being equal and if I and my rifle can do our job I want a round that will do its part as well for its part of the equation of successful defense.

I just am having a hard time grasping one concept here. I seem to grasp the basic concept that in a 55gr round successful incapacitation of an attacker would rely on reliable fragmentation, among other factors. So therefore I follow that what is needed is 55gr ammo that can achieve sufficient velocity at the given distance to achieve fragmentation. This, it seems, is only possible with military spec ammo in that category.

What I don't understand is , if one cannot get their hands on that ammo what is a suitable replacement? It seems as though most here are then choosing heavier grain stuff. Why? Is it that if you can't get 55gr to move fast enough as with mil-spec ammo then the next best thing is to have heavier stuff because heavier stuff will fragment at lower speeds?
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:57:01 AM EDT
I'll answer one last time and risk getting flamed for my reply. You asked about a commercial equivilant for M193. It exists. It is called Winchester Q3131, or Q3131A. Both are loaded to M193 velocity and the boxes labled 5.56mm, not .223Rem.

Even .223 Rem (with the right bullet) will fragment...just not as far out as will mil spec ammo. If you are forced to use .223Rem at 100 yards or less, you target probably won't know the difference. You gain maybe 50 extra yards distance for reliable fragmentation using a M193 equiv. as compared to a .223Rem type load. Is that important...maybe yes and maybe no.

Heavy bullet open tip match ammo is a current "fad" because some special forces troops are using it in the ME. It may work better than the current 55 gr. or 62 gr. loadings, or it may not. Usually the makers of these match bullets caution against using them for hunting applications because they don't expand. See Sierra's information about their match bullets. That leaves some other mechanism of incapcitation. Certainly the match bullet loadings can be more accurate than your typical mil spec ball. These heavy bullet loadings are also usually much more expensive to buy in large quantity than mil type ball.

Your choice. It doesn't seem all that confusing to me. Now I'll go away and haunt another thread.

Jeff
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 7:31:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvo:
Heavy bullet open tip match ammo is a current "fad" because some special forces troops are using it in the ME. It may work better than the current 55 gr. or 62 gr. loadings, or it may not.



It's not a 'fad'. Many credible people here and elswhere have done controlled, scientifics tests that show the heavy OTM loadings from Hornady, Black Hills, et all demonstrate superior terminal performance to m193 or m855 spec ammo. Specifically, the projectiles are the Hornady 68 and 75 gr, the Sierra 69 and 77gr, and the Nosler 77gr. M193 and M855 are not 'bad', these are just better, IF your barrel will shoot them accurately (1/9, 1/8, 1/7 twists)

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:08:21 AM EDT


Under 50 or so yards I would probably use a handgun



Why, if you could use a rifle?

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:23:09 AM EDT
Since Q3131 (the new ones) is available, I think that is the best choice when it comes to commercial M193 loadings.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 9:36:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MaverickMkii:
Since Q3131 (the new ones) is available, I think that is the best choice when it comes to commercial M193 loadings.



+1. Works well, looks clean, clean packaging.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 10:39:38 AM EDT
dvo,
No flaming needed. :) I appreciate your taking the time. Conversation is how people (like me) learn and I value any input anyone could give me. I hope I have not run your patience with me to an end. I find this a very interesting topic. Even if I probably will never use and of this. Well hopefully never. I finally have found a group of guys that like beating this dead horse ... er ... I mean talking about this stuff as much as i do. My other friends eyes glaze over when I talk about this stuff. ;)

I guess I missed that first post then. From what I was reading I thought that M193 comparable ammo was not commercially available. So this Winchester Q3131 stuff is a suitable replacement then? And I can get it at my local gun store? Cool. That is a place to start then.

swj0001,
I have been reading about the heavier loadings doing well. I guess more reading about them is needed for me.

MrMorden,
I would use a handgun if I could because I am a retired LEO and I ate, slept and breathed handguns for a lot of years. You go with what you know when the chips are down. I feel very very comfortable shooting just about anything with a handgun. Well out to a certain distance that is. But on my property if things are little farther I may have to reach a bit. Again, it will likely never come to that but I would rather have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. No?
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 11:41:25 AM EDT
XSentinel:

No problem. I figured some of the others here would jump on me for calling the heavy bullet trend a "fad". Q3131 is pretty good stuff. Check the Ammo Price Thread above for the latest in price and availability. It is very up to date. My latest order came from Bass Pro Shops and the transaction went very well.

Like you, I need to do more research on the heavy match bullet loads. I prefer to have a common zero for my AR's and nearly all of my ammo is 55gr. I bet the zero for a 77gr. load is fairly different from the 55gr. load and I don't want to have to mess with making adjustments if TSHTF. I'd have to be convinced that lethality was significantly better inside of 150 yards to make the expensive switch.

It is good to have another newbie around here. Have had my AR's for a few years, but didn't know about this Board. I can learn a lot here it seems.

Jeff
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 11:49:46 AM EDT
I'm going to run up to my local gun guy tomorrow and see if he has some of that Winchester Q3131 stuff or if he can get it.

I think the idea behind the heavier stuff is that, in FMJ at least, the heavier stuff will reliably fragment at lower velocities. Since higher velocity commercial stuff in 55gr is getting harder to find this may be a suitable alternative.

What s OTM? I have been looking around but I have not found a thread with all the possible abbreviations and although I know quite a few OTM escapes me.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 12:00:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:



What s OTM? I have been looking around but I have not found a thread with all the possible abbreviations and although I know quite a few OTM escapes me.



OTM, Open Tip Match, has a small hollow point tip but is not designed to expand. The hollow on the tip is an indication of the manufacturing process wich leaves the tip open and the base solid.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 12:04:24 PM EDT
OTM = open tipped match. That was a new one on me and I have been shooting, hunting and reloading for almost 25 years.

Someone needs to show me that the heavy OTM's have jackets that are thin enough to fragment at somewhat lower velocities that result from the heavy bullet weight. They should be wonderfully accurate, if you can shoot and your rifle is inherantly more accurate than your ammo...Jeff
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:28:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I'm going to run up to my local gun guy tomorrow and see if he has some of that Winchester Q3131 stuff or if he can get it.


this is what you need him to get:





ar-jedi

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:56:15 PM EDT
The Army has no current or future budget for M193 ammunition. It's going away, along with the M16A1 rifle.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:39:39 PM EDT
M193 is still used by the Air Force for training and qualification purposes (the standard course uses the multiple, miniature silhouette target at (I think) 25 yards, so M193 works fine for that. I don't know if the use of M193 is because there's still a bunch in the logistics pipline, or because that's what they use and they specifically want it. I do know that every time I fired the M16 they broke out cases of combat-ready M193 packed on strippers in bandoleers, 7 bandoleers to the can, two cans to the crate, unlike a lot of Army training ammunition, which is issued on strippers but in large cardboard boxes.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:53:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dvo:
OTM = open tipped match. That was a new one on me and I have been shooting, hunting and reloading for almost 25 years.

Someone needs to show me that the heavy OTM's have jackets that are thin enough to fragment at somewhat lower velocities that result from the heavy bullet weight. They should be wonderfully accurate, if you can shoot and your rifle is inherantly more accurate than your ammo...

Jeff



I hate to say this but, you sir need to read the ammo oracle.

The jacket IS thinner on the OTM bullets. It does show you. And it does show the wounding profile in comparison to M193.

Anyway you slice it, the 75/77 grain bullets perform better than even M193 or M855. That's not a fad that we hopped on because some "Special Forces" are using it. The problem is, that they're more expensive. If your heart is set on a 5.56 loading. Q3131A and XM193 were the best choices. And we think (no confirmation of this) that the current Q3131 is just as good as Q3131A. If you really want the 5.56 that reigns supreme, buy the Black Hills 5.56 77 grain MK262 seconds from cabela's or I think fulton armory still carries it. That's as good as you're going to get for defensive purposes. Period. M193 and M855 may have better characteristics for barrier penetration but not by much. For critters, this is the best that is availabe. Well except if you can get Hornady 5.56 75 grain TAP police loading. That is actually the best but some say we civvies can't get it.

You, XSentinel, wanted to know what the best is and that's it. That being said, I believe M193 ammo is very good and would fill your needs, as long as you can get it.

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:34:16 AM EDT
Thanks for the info.
You are correct. I wanted to know what the best overall defense round for my 16" barrel rifle is. Of course I know that best is subjective but the great thing about forums like this is that you get a lot of opinions and therefore you can break them down in to groups and get a consensus.

But the only limitation I place on it is that it be the best ammo for gun for defense that I can buy at a store commercially near me. I don't want exotic ammo that is hard to find or super expensive.

Seems to me that 5.56 mil-spec Q3131(A) is not bad for that purpose and cheap if you can get it. Or, if you prefer , the heavier 75 or 77 grain OTM loadings in .223 cal and there is a growing feeling that these heavier loadings might be better overall than the M193 5.56.

So I guess the answer for me is to get some Q3131 if I can and some 75/77 OTM stuff and see what I like better as both would be adequate stoppers out to 100 yards or so. Have I gotten it?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:45:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 4:56:09 AM EDT by dvo]
delete post
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:54:44 AM EDT
Sorry, but I'm with the 77 & 75 grn crowd here.

If you’re not stocking the 77 or 75grn Black Hills or equivalent ammo (your rifle shoots knots) with your messin up.

Go back re-read the recommendations at the bottom of the ammo-faq, you'll find the heavier rounds (highly suited to your 1/7 twist AR) are the way to go.

55grn stuff is for practice and plinking, the heavy rounds are for stockin.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:16:09 AM EDT
I've decided to get some of both and check 'em out. I know that the current model number for some M193 is the Winchester Q3131(a) so I have no problem getting some of that.

But the other favorite that many here recommend, the 77gr Nosler OTM with cannelure is not so easy. Does anyone have a model number for those? Most here prefer the BlackHills right? From the AmmoOracle it states that most there prefer the Nosler to the Sierra. So does anyone have the specific model number of the one that people are suggesting?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:06:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:56:39 AM EDT
I appreciate the response, but I am interested in brand new factory ammo only.
Thanks anyway though.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:54:00 PM EDT
Black Hills makes both new (red box) and remanufactured (blue box) ammo.

The price difference is considerable.

I use the blue box stuff and have never had any problems. I do keep a couple of mags loaded with the red box stuff for SHTF.

Seydou
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:50:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 3:52:17 PM EDT by 2hawk]

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I appreciate the response, but I am interested in brand new factory ammo only.
Thanks anyway though.




I think you'll find very little difference except the price.

Check out the reviews (posted primarily by HP shooters FWIW).

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:53:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I appreciate the response, but I am interested in brand new factory ammo only.
Thanks anyway though.



Many of us view their blue box stuff as good as others factory new. I am one of them.

But:

Cabela's carries the MK262 by black hills. They are brand new, but they are factory seconds. I guess the military has such a high standard that they reject stuff that is perfectly fine for cosmetic reasons or something like that. Sorry I don't have a better technical understanding of this but that's what I know. If you go to cabela's site you can buy these in the Black Hills Red box new ammo heading. It's the only loading in 5.56 / 77 grain. From what I understand, these are not the noslers but the Sierras.

Or also you can buy Factory new 77 / 75 grain ammo there.

Or you can go to outdoor marksmen, who is found in the industry heading on this sight, and buy some Hornady TAP 75 grainers. I think Midwayusa also has that, as well as Black Hills Red or Blue.

Getting both is a good way to go. Gives you more options. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:50:18 AM EDT
I will look into that stuff and appreciate the info but what I am trying to find out is specifically the ammo that is recommended in the Ammo Oracle article. In that article they recommend the 75 or 77 grain Nosler OTM made by Black Hills. All of the authors give this as one of there preferred rounds for defense. However while they give specific model numbers for all the M193 loadings and who makes them, they don't give any specific references to model numbers for the 77gr Nosler OTM ammo.

So if any one knows specifically what ammo those guys were talking about or where they get it I would love to know. Thanks.

The reason is because it seems that there are a lot of different rounds that have some of the characteristics of the suggested rounds but not all. There are 77 gr rounds that are not OTM. There are OTM that are not 77gr. There are 77gr OTM that are not Nosler. etc... So it gets really really complicated. Had the authors put a model number from a manufacturer that would have been helpful. Because it seems to me that not all 77gr ammo is the same or suggested to perform well.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:16:36 AM EDT
Black Hills does not use the term OTM

The type I believe you are looking for is their Heavy Match Hollow Point, which they make in 68 and 75 grain bullet weights. AFAIK their 69 and 77 grain bullets are SMK, and I do not remember what the performance of these bullets is.

HTH

Seydou
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:43:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 1:58:33 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:56:31 AM EDT
Excellent info, as always.
Thanks Troy
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:48:43 AM EDT
That is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
I really did try to find it elsewhere already posted but I could not. I did find a lot of multi page threads that I tried to follow but none of them had anything definitive like this. Ammo Oracle was close but seemed older and had ammo listed that you just can't get any more.

Once again thanks a lot. I printed it out and off go shopping. Expensive but if I buy a few boxes at a time I will be able to amass enough to store and shoot. Can't buy a lot at once for those prices though.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:18:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

- Black Hills loads with 75gr Hornady (.223)





is the load mentioned above the same as this?

Black Hills at Midway
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:59:59 PM EDT
XS

I wouldn't buy any ammo from a retail walk-in store unless you are really desperate to get some rounds put up for self defense like this week! Wal-Mart may be your best bet for that.

I haven't found any better places to buy ammo in bulk than from the guys on this site like Ammoman and others mentioned above. Happy shooting!

Thanks Troy for the refresher course.....I needed that.

Makes we wonder if the .223 I purchased that was made by IMI is .223 or .556? Me thinks it's probably .223 pressure. Anybody know for sure?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:16:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:

Originally Posted By Troy:

- Black Hills loads with 75gr Hornady (.223)





is the load mentioned above the same as this?

Black Hills at Midway



Yes, except that your link is to the Blue-Box load, which is loaded using once-fired military brass. In other words, reloads. They are just fine for practice, and great for verifying that this load works in your rifle and getting your optic/sights sighted in. For actual duty/defensive/carry use, you will wand the Red-Box loads that use new brass. Yes, they cost more, but you don't need a bazillion rounds, and your life is worth it.

-Troy




Got it. Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:00:37 PM EDT
Sometimes good ammo can be had at certain places for cheaper than on-line. But I agree it's not very often.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:31:35 PM EDT
can somebody describe the different 75gr bullets to me? Like parts, and all the different variety. I see like "heavy MHP" and MHP and all these all stuff that I have no idea what they are.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:23:59 AM EDT
I agree. It is hard to know what you are getting as it does not say it specifically on the outside of the box. For example, Black Hills says 75 gr "heavy" match but does not say if that is a Sierra MK bullet or the Nosler or Hornady bullet that is used. And since the Sierra is not preferred how do you know?

The only thing I see but I cannot confirm is that it appears that the 75gr is most likely the Nosler or Hornady and the 77gr is most likely the Sierra. But I'm not sure.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:15:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 6:17:37 AM EDT by JJREA]

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I agree. It is hard to know what you are getting as it does not say it specifically on the outside of the box. For example, Black Hills says 75 gr "heavy" match but does not say if that is a Sierra MK bullet or the Nosler or Hornady bullet that is used. And since the Sierra is not preferred how do you know?

The only thing I see but I cannot confirm is that it appears that the 75gr is most likely the Nosler or Hornady and the 77gr is most likely the Sierra. But I'm not sure.



You have to put 2 and 2 together here guys. The 75's are Hornady made bullets. That's it. End of story. The 77's are Sierra made bullets. That's it, end of story. I suggest you go on Hornady's website and Sierra'a website and familiarize yourself with who makes what. In fact, go on berger's and noslers too. Troy just a few post up explained to you that the terms MHP, Match BTHP, OTM all really mean the same thing. They are general terms for the most part. From what I remember, hornady calls theirs "match BTHP", Black Hills calls any of them that they've loaded "MHP" (match hollow point), and nosler calls them "OTM" . But the acronym's are used between all of them sometimes. On top of that, Troy also pointed out nobody is loading the Noslers presently, and DevL also explained more about that. I don't know if you're not reading or if you have alzheimers, but it's all right there. And, if you want to get more confused, go to Lapua's website, because I belave they make a 75 grainer too!!!

This is my advice, just buy some of the shit and go shoot it. As I've said before, any of the heavier loadings will suit you best and Troy gives you a list starting with the best and going down from there. They all usually rate high on the accuracy scale so I don't think you'll be disappointed in that area.

Here's some ammo pics to show you what some of it looks like, I hope you can read the markings on the box:








One word to the wise though, if you don't want moly coated bullets, make sure you're not ordering them. I've bought them before without looking too close at the box at a store. But that's kind of a whole other subject.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:24:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I agree. It is hard to know what you are getting as it does not say it specifically on the outside of the box. For example, Black Hills says 75 gr "heavy" match but does not say if that is a Sierra MK bullet or the Nosler or Hornady bullet that is used. And since the Sierra is not preferred how do you know?

The only thing I see but I cannot confirm is that it appears that the 75gr is most likely the Nosler or Hornady and the 77gr is most likely the Sierra. But I'm not sure.




While you may not be able to tell your butt from a hole in the ground, anyone who reloads or has taken the time to read & study the Ammo-Faq or Hornady's , Noslers's or Sierra's website can certainly tell one bullet from the other.......

And while you are apparently are still operating under the mis-conception that Sierra's 77grn. matchking is "not-preferred" there are some us here (myself included) that do "prefer" the 77grn. SMK., (FYI- the newest version of the MK262 has the Sierra 77grn. SMK loaded in it).

FWIW, I also use and shoot the Hornady 75grn. match BTHP on ocassion, but the 77grn. SMKs are my "go-to" load which I stock in the form of BH bluebox, (which are every bit as reliable as the red-box version IMO and a dang sight cheaper)

Mike

ps - as to the OTM comments above, "Open-Tip-Match" was a phrase which came about when NOSLER seeking to compete w/ Sierra for a share of the "matchking" market, referred to their new bullet as an OTM bullet.

Those confusing or assuming this term can be applied to Hornady or Sierra lines of bullet are using the term erroneously (in the wrong context).



There is only one "bullet" which can be properly referred to as OTM and that is the Nosler 77grn. OTM.

Sierra "Matchkings" are not referred to as OTMs by those who know the differences, (as the bullet constructing is different than the Nosler), they are called "matchkings", in either 52, 69 or 77 grn. weights.

Hornady match BTHPs in 68 & 75 grn weight are again "NOT" referred to as OTMs by those who know the difference in bullet construction and ogive when compared to the Noslers.



Anyone who can't tell the difference between these 3 bullets by sight, has NOT examined them in a reloading context as they are notably different bullets and even in completed cartridge form, one glance is all most need to discern the differences, (w/ the Sierra and Nosler being closest looking to each other, but with different looking points/tips due to the differing manufacturing processes).
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:41:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I agree. It is hard to know what you are getting as it does not say it specifically on the outside of the box. For example, Black Hills says 75 gr "heavy" match but does not say if that is a Sierra MK bullet or the Nosler or Hornady bullet that is used. And since the Sierra is not preferred how do you know?

The only thing I see but I cannot confirm is that it appears that the 75gr is most likely the Nosler or Hornady and the 77gr is most likely the Sierra. But I'm not sure.




While you may not be able to tell your butt from a hole in the ground, anyone who reloads or has taken the time to read & study the Ammo-FAQ or Hornady's , Noslers's or Sierra's website can certainly tell one bullet from the other.......

And while you are apparently are still operating under the mis-conception that Sierra's 77grn. matchking is "not-preferred" there are some us here (myself included) that do "prefer" the 77grn. SMK., (FYI- the newest version of the MK262 has the Sierra 77grn. SMK loaded in it).

FWIW, I also use and shoot the Hornady 75grn. match BTHP on ocassion, but the 77grn. SMKs are my "go-to" load which I stock in the form of BH bluebox, (which are every bit as reliable as the red-box version IMO and a dang sight cheaper)

Mike

ps - as to the OTM comments above, "Open-Tip-Match" was a phrase which came about when NOSLER seeking to compete w/ Sierra for a share of the "matchking" market, referred to their new bullet as an OTM bullet.

Those confusing or assuming this term can be applied to Hornady or Sierra lines of bullet are using the term erroneously (in the wrong context).



There is only one "bullet" which can be properly referred to as OTM and that is the Nosler 77grn. OTM.

Sierra "Matchkings" are not referred to as OTMs by those who know the differences, (as the bullet constructing is different than the Nosler), they are called "matchkings", in either 52, 69 or 77 grn. weights.

Hornady match BTHPs in 68 & 75 grn weight are again "NOT" referred to as OTMs by those who know the difference in bullet construction and ogive when compared to the Noslers.



Anyone who can't tell the difference between these 3 bullets by sight, has NOT examined them in a reloading context as they are notably different bullets and even in completed cartridge form, one glance is all most need to discern the differences, (w/ the Sierra and Nosler being closest looking to each other, but with different looking points/tips due to the differing manufacturing processes).

I really don't see the need for your attitude as it is misplaced. You are attributing comments to me that I did not make and then calling me ignorant for making them.
I laugh at people like you that feel the need to berate people online since there is no chance that we will meet in person. I would venture to say that if you were standing here in front of me you would not dare speak that way. I prefer to speak online the same way I would speak if you were here in front of me so I tend to use a bit more courtesy. Then again I am not a coward that hides behind a keyboard.
That said lets examine your comments:
You say that anyone that reloads can tell the difference by looking at them. Where did I say that I reload? And the objective of a forum like this is to know the answer before I buy them saving me time and money. If I have them in my hand I could probably tell the difference. But by them I would have bought them and the point is really moot. I come here to try to find out information before I buy.
You further state that I am under the misconception that the Sierra bullet is not as good. Please show me where I stated this. I did not. It was another poster here named Troy that posted that among others. he appears to be a long time poster here so why don't you point those comments at him and the others that agreed with him.

I also never called anything other than the Nolsers by the term "OTM". Again that was another poster. I think the same one. Seems to me that you are trying to have an argument with Troy so please leave me out of it.

If you have some helpful comments I would love to hear them. If you want to name call lose your self. And if you want to pick a fight go outside and find someone because picking one in a digital format is really quite cowardly as the outcome is nothing.

My question was that on the box it does not state which bullet(head) is used. It does not. Another poster pointed out that if it says 75 gr then it is a Hornady and if it is a 77gr then it is a Sierra. It can't be a Nosler as there is none commercially manufactured. That was enough of an answer for me and I was going to leave it at that. But no where on the FAQ, Ammo- Oracle or this thread did it say that previous to his post. I asked a question and I got an answer. Isn't that how this is supposed to work? SO click it down a notch bud. This isn't work here. This is fun.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:14:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:26:08 AM EDT
Troy,
You listed the Winchester Q3131 as being seconds.

Is this correct?

TIA

Seydou
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:34:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:36:15 AM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By HP40:
Q3131 is now available in quantity



+1

Saw over 1900 rounds (in 20count boxes) at Bass Pro last weekend. 4.49/box. NATO headstamp with 04 and 05 dates.


This is the same as what I found:


Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I'm going to run up to my local gun guy tomorrow and see if he has some of that Winchester Q3131 stuff or if he can get it.


this is what you need him to get:

losdos.dyndns.org:8080/public/ammo/win-q3131/DSCN1864_sm.jpg

losdos.dyndns.org:8080/public/ammo/win-q3131/DSCN1852_sm.jpg

ar-jedi


Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:42:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XSentinel:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Originally Posted By XSentinel:
I agree. It is hard to know what you are getting as it does not say it specifically on the outside of the box. For example, Black Hills says 75 gr "heavy" match but does not say if that is a Sierra MK bullet or the Nosler or Hornady bullet that is used. And since the Sierra is not preferred how do you know?

The only thing I see but I cannot confirm is that it appears that the 75gr is most likely the Nosler or Hornady and the 77gr is most likely the Sierra. But I'm not sure.




You further state that I am under the misconception that the Sierra bullet is not as good. Please show me where I stated this. I did not.



Placed in red above so you could see it!

And folks that don't take the time to research information (especially the good info contain here on this web-site) always get spoken to in the manner above whether their in person or on the I-net, as the older I get the less tolerance I have for folks that just flat don't get it..........

Sorry if ya got your feelings hurt, but not everything above was intended for you as there are plenty around here throwing the OTM comments around to describe bullets that are NOT the Noslers, which just plain don't apply to any round but that which it was "originally" associated with.

Mike
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top