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Posted: 1/18/2006 8:16:37 PM EDT
My local shop has a shitload of american eagle 556 layin around and so does gander mountain, i havent had a chance to look at the prices. Is it any good, im lookin for some inexpensive stuff to shoot but too many stories about wolf. some one tell me about AE ammo
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:33:15 PM EDT
Silverado:

Comrade (Marshall?) Zhukov has put together a plethora of ammo surveys (tacked near the top); here is the link for Federal and AE

Lots of user opinions there.

I'd recommend checking the Federal website as well, which has some pretty interesting gel testing photos.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:44:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 5:54:42 AM EDT by ALAN308]
The AE [223] is good. Clean and reliable. I just recieved some in the smaller boxs and they are sealed as well. 180.00 / 1000 going rate.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:13:50 AM EDT
Didn't know that AE came in 556? I have shot a lot of the AE223 and have liked it - no problems.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:35:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALAN308:
The AE [223] is good. Clean and reliable.


Agreed, all my .223/5.56 guns love it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:06:16 AM EDT
It's good stuff.

There are 55 grain and 62 grain loadings
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:41:05 PM EDT
The great majority of what I have fed my AR-15 over the last 3+ yrs has been FAE. Both I and my AR-15 have been very happy with it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:45:44 AM EDT
Federal American Eagle is great ammo. I have used 1,000's of rounds of it
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:18:25 AM EDT
I always had good luck running AE223 through all my guns. There were issues in the past (don't know if that is still true) that the brass wasn't of the best quality for reloading, but since I don't reload .223, I never really cared.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:22:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By silveradoguy17:
My local shop has a shitload of american eagle 556 layin around and so does gander mountain, i havent had a chance to look at the prices. Is it any good, im lookin for some inexpensive stuff to shoot but too many stories about wolf. some one tell me about AE ammo



Works great, fairly accurate, and Ive never had a misfeed with the Federal AE 55 or 62gr. I can manage just under 1" at 100yds with my DCM upper. Only thing factory stuff that groups better is Federal Match and Black Hills 68gr. I manage just under .8" at 100yds with em. But that stuff is like 3 or 4 times the price.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:22:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I always had good luck running AE223 through all my guns. There were issues in the past (don't know if that is still true) that the brass wasn't of the best quality for reloading, but since I don't reload .223, I never really cared.



They're now using LC brass, so that's not an issue.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:14:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hooligan22:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I always had good luck running AE223 through all my guns. There were issues in the past (don't know if that is still true) that the brass wasn't of the best quality for reloading, but since I don't reload .223, I never really cared.



They're now using LC brass, so that's not an issue.



How are they using LC brass? I know Federal is contracted to run the Lake City arsenal, but isnt all the production there for military (with the exception of seconds and thirds like the X and PD)?
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 12:18:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hooligan22:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I always had good luck running AE223 through all my guns. There were issues in the past (don't know if that is still true) that the brass wasn't of the best quality for reloading, but since I don't reload .223, I never really cared.



They're now using LC brass, so that's not an issue.



Are you SURE about it????
Does anybody have further info?
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 1:15:00 PM EDT
what i know is that ATK, alliant tech systems owns Federal Cartridge and also run the Lake City plant. I did get some Lake City brass recently in my WCC once-fire (GRRR!) and i was able to deprime it without problems. there was no crimp. the guy i got it from, brass man, said that stuff is loaded by Federal, which is why there is no crimp. i can ask a friend who works at federal for the scoop.

Craig
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 1:36:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pizzigr1:

Originally Posted By Hooligan22:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I always had good luck running AE223 through all my guns. There were issues in the past (don't know if that is still true) that the brass wasn't of the best quality for reloading, but since I don't reload .223, I never really cared.



They're now using LC brass, so that's not an issue.



Are you SURE about it????
Does anybody have further info?



Two cases (1000 rounds) Federal American Eagle AE223 on hand - All headstamp LC03, NATO cross in circle, shiny brass. Can't recall where it came from, probably Wholesale Hunter, mid-year 2005.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 2:46:38 PM EDT
I also got 2 cases of AE223 last year from outdoor marksman and both have LC headstamp with NATO stamp. One case all marked 05 the other 04.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 3:54:09 PM EDT
My guess?

Federal has had to pull out all the stops to ensure that LC fills the DoD orders for small arms ammo (goes a long way toward ensuring they keep the management contract when it comes up for re-bid), including perhaps producing milspec brass on their own civie production line machinery and either selling it to Uncle Sam for loading at the LC plant, or completing the loading process of the milspec ammo at their own plant.

And since setting up and tweaking production lines is probably something not done for shits-and-giggles, portions of milspec brass they make on their own commercial machinery can easily be sidetracked and loaded up as FAE .223 product to keep the commercial channels stocked, hence we now see milspec brass with LC headstamps on FAE ammo.

The new FAE .223 ammo seems to be using a different powder than the older stuff; kinda reminds me of the XM193 aroma, just not as strong. Why not? When you're buying powder by the ton to make M193 or M855 ammo for Uncle Sam, why not add a few more tons to the order and modify your own .223 formula to use it?

Likewise, I would suggest the new FAE boxes mimic the XM193/WCC/Milspec style because the KISS theory applies: once you are set up to load one style of box, you may as well do all your products that way. I suspect they also realized significant material and shipping cost savings as well; those older larger boxes and plastic inserts probably cost much more than the new, smaller milspec stuff, their cardboard and insert suppliers have only one size to make for them, and the new 500 round FAE half-cases are a lot smaller than their predecessor, so many more can fit in a UPS or FedEx trailer.

The demands of mass production have a way of reducing everything one does to simplicity.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 5:14:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeInCT:
My guess?

Federal has had to pull out all the stops to ensure that LC fills the DoD orders for small arms ammo (goes a long way toward ensuring they keep the management contract when it comes up for re-bid), including perhaps producing milspec brass on their own civie production line machinery and either selling it to Uncle Sam for loading at the LC plant, or completing the loading process of the milspec ammo at their own plant.

And since setting up and tweaking production lines is probably something not done for shits-and-giggles, portions of milspec brass they make on their own commercial machinery can easily be sidetracked and loaded up as FAE .223 product to keep the commercial channels stocked, hence we now see milspec brass with LC headstamps on FAE ammo.

The new FAE .223 ammo seems to be using a different powder than the older stuff; kinda reminds me of the XM193 aroma, just not as strong. Why not? When you're buying powder by the ton to make M193 or M855 ammo for Uncle Sam, why not add a few more tons to the order and modify your own .223 formula to use it?

Likewise, I would suggest the new FAE boxes mimic the XM193/WCC/Milspec style because the KISS theory applies: once you are set up to load one style of box, you may as well do all your products that way. I suspect they also realized significant material and shipping cost savings as well; those older larger boxes and plastic inserts probably cost much more than the new, smaller milspec stuff, their cardboard and insert suppliers have only one size to make for them, and the new 500 round FAE half-cases are a lot smaller than their predecessor, so many more can fit in a UPS or FedEx trailer.

The demands of mass production have a way of reducing everything one does to simplicity.



Isnt this LC stamped American Eagle stuff 5.56 NATO and NOT 223 Remington as stated on the boxes? This could get dangerous couldnt it?

Im glad they finally dropped those bog boxes with the plastic inserts. They seriously got on my nerves. Those boxes were at least twice (maybe 3) times the size of the smaller new boxes. And those plastic "belt holder" things did nothing but take up space.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:04:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 6:05:34 PM EDT by TigerStripe]

Originally Posted By ALAN308:
180.00 / 1000 going rate.



Where?

Curious,

­TS

ETA: Is $125 / 500 for XM193 + tax high? low? about right?


Link Posted: 1/21/2006 11:26:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 11:34:06 PM EDT by StrykerDawn]

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:

Originally Posted By ALAN308:
180.00 / 1000 going rate.



Where?

Curious,

­TShigh?




$125/500; That's about the lowest I've seen XM193 retail in a while.

The only place wholesale/mailorder I've seen in stock cheaper is @ www.Wideners.com,
and they just put up a notice that thier prices are going up once this batch is sold out
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 11:39:25 PM EDT
__________________________________________________________________________________

Isnt this LC stamped American Eagle stuff 5.56 NATO and NOT 223 Remington as stated on the boxes? This could get dangerous couldnt it?
__________________________________________________________________________________

No.

A .223 SAAMI powder load is less powerful than a 5.56 milspec powder load. So 5.56 spec brass can easily handle a SAAMI powder load.

The reverse would be dangerous.

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:42:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brillo:

Originally Posted By pizzigr1:

Originally Posted By Hooligan22:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I always had good luck running AE223 through all my guns. There were issues in the past (don't know if that is still true) that the brass wasn't of the best quality for reloading, but since I don't reload .223, I never really cared.



They're now using LC brass, so that's not an issue.



Are you SURE about it????
Does anybody have further info?



Two cases (1000 rounds) Federal American Eagle AE223 on hand - All headstamp LC03, NATO cross in circle, shiny brass. Can't recall where it came from, probably Wholesale Hunter, mid-year 2005.



Fyi...
I have about 1000 rounds of AE223/55gr... It's in the larger boxes that contain 2 plastic doohickies that hold 10 rounds each. It's a mix of LC04 and LC05 NATO brass.

However, I just bought another case at a gun show recently... It is packaged differently (smaller boxes that are similar to how XM193 is packaged), and it is NOT LC brass. Headstamp is marked FC 05.

So, I'm not so sure that they're using LC brass anymore....
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 1:50:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeInCT:
__________________________________________________________________________________

Isnt this LC stamped American Eagle stuff 5.56 NATO and NOT 223 Remington as stated on the boxes? This could get dangerous couldnt it?
__________________________________________________________________________________

No.

A .223 SAAMI powder load is less powerful than a 5.56 milspec powder load. So 5.56 spec brass can easily handle a SAAMI powder load.

The reverse would be dangerous.




NO thats not the problem Im getting at. Ammunition packaged as 223 remington, but using M193 5.56 NATO cases will not be the same dimensions. The 223 can chamber and fire safely in a 5.56 NATO chamber, but the reverse is not true for a 5.56 NATO chambering and firing safely in a 223 remington chamber.

For most rifles shooting 223 it doesnt matter, they can handle the headspace and/or chamber dimensions. But some bolt actions or in rare cases AR match rifles chambered in 223 remington cannot. Most newer 223 rifles have NATO chambers. But many older rifles (aside from ARs) may not be able to handle it.

Isnt Federal putting itself in the crosshairs for a lawsuit? I would think so when some poor guy buys a box of AE 223 and shoots it in his old bolt action with LC M193 casings!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 2:19:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 2:20:45 PM EDT by ALAN308]

Originally Posted By JoeInCT:
__________________________________________________________________________________

Isnt this LC stamped American Eagle stuff 5.56 NATO and NOT 223 Remington as stated on the boxes? This could get dangerous couldnt it?
__________________________________________________________________________________

No.

A .223 SAAMI powder load is less powerful than a 5.56 milspec powder load. So 5.56 spec brass can easily handle a SAAMI powder load.

The reverse would be dangerous.



The AE 223 has been coming thru packaged both ways. All of it is 223 Remington.
Small boxs single divider, like the M193 packaging, and the familliar 10rd. plastic strips packed two strips to a larger box. Nobody is using this stuff in benchrest competition so I do not think it matters which package or headstamp you get, these are SAMMI loaded and great at the price. I have had one failure [ftf] after thousands [10?] of rounds. It made me change out my hammer spring.



Link Posted: 1/22/2006 2:45:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALAN308:

Originally Posted By JoeInCT:
__________________________________________________________________________________

Isnt this LC stamped American Eagle stuff 5.56 NATO and NOT 223 Remington as stated on the boxes? This could get dangerous couldnt it?
__________________________________________________________________________________

No.

A .223 SAAMI powder load is less powerful than a 5.56 milspec powder load. So 5.56 spec brass can easily handle a SAAMI powder load.

The reverse would be dangerous.



The AE 223 has been coming thru packaged both ways. All of it is 223 Remington.
Small boxs single divider, like the M193 packaging, and the familliar 10rd. plastic strips packed two strips to a larger box. Nobody is using this stuff in benchrest competition so I do not think it matters which package or headstamp you get, these are SAMMI loaded and great at the price. I have had one failure [ftf] after thousands [10?] of rounds. It made me change out my hammer spring.






You dont have to be using this in a benchrest competition to be dangerous. Could be in any rifle chambered for 223 remington w/o the bigger headspacing, like many bolt action 223 rifles. Besides, as I said some poor slob will eventually chamber one of these M193 rounds packaged as 223 Rem in an older 223 rifle and BAM!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:01:44 PM EDT
My understanding is that .223 cases and 5.56 cases are dimensionally the same externally, but what makes one round 5.56 milspec and another round .223 Rem is the powder load, the 5.56 round having a hotter load to generate faster muzzle velocity than the SAAMI spec .223. IIRC, a 55gr M193 comes out of a 20" barrel at about 3,250 fps, whereas a SAAMI 55 gr is typically closer to 3,000 fps.

To accomodate the hotter powder load, what's different is the chamber spec, with a tad more room in the neck and shoulder of a 5.56 chamber to allow for more expansion of the brass to accomodate the higher pressures from the 5.56 milspec powder load. In addition, a 5.56 chamber has more leade (unrifled area in the throat) to keep the bullet from being already engaged in the rifling and adding to the pressure in the case. Apparently these dimensional chamber differences are very small, on the order of two or three thousandths of an inch, but apparently it is enough to make a difference. Since the .223 chamber is designed for a cooler load, using a 5.56 load in it could push the gun to a KB.

There might also be differences in the grade/alloy of brass used, and even its thickness, such that I would expect the milspec brass to be capable of dealing with higher pressures. For example, many reloaders here have said the FAE .223 brass was historically too thin/soft to be safely reloaded, whereas they have had great success with UMC and Winchester brass.

Reloaders will have to chime in here if I am offbase, since my knowledge is not based on occupational experience or the level of technical knowledge that a reloader would have to know.

Finally, what I can't believe is that the people at Federal would knowingly put themselves in legal harm's way if a 5.56 case shouldn't be used with a .223 powder load in a .223 chamber.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:32:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 8:07:59 AM EDT by MyakkaVice]
.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:49:23 PM EDT
Black Hills uses Nato brass and prairie dog hunters shoot it all the time through they're bolt guns.

While I agree that nato DOES have a different spec externally, it's not enough to matter and I don't agree that it will raise pressure to dangerous levels. Tight match chambers are usually made so the bullet touches the lead anyways, unlike a nato chamber, and if it's a saami powder charge, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. At least that's how I understand it. And on top of that, I've seen a few guys post on here that they've shot 5.56 pressure ammo in their bolt guns with no problems, although everyone didn't recommend it. My cousin is included in this because he tells me there is no difference in Nato and Saami loadings because he fired 5.56 through his dad's Ruger M77. I wasn't there at any of these claims so take it for what it's worth.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Black Hills uses Nato brass and prairie dog hunters shoot it all the time through they're bolt guns.

While I agree that nato DOES have a different spec externally, it's not enough to matter and I don't agree that it will raise pressure to dangerous levels. Tight match chambers are usually made so the bullet touches the lead anyways, unlike a nato chamber, and if it's a saami powder charge, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. At least that's how I understand it. And on top of that, I've seen a few guys post on here that they've shot 5.56 pressure ammo in their bolt guns with no problems, although everyone didn't recommend it. My cousin is included in this because he tells me there is no difference in Nato and Saami loadings because he fired 5.56 through his dad's Ruger M77. I wasn't there at any of these claims so take it for what it's worth.



I dont know, I just checked on the ammo oracle again. there it says the cases are identical externally, but I got my reloading manual right in front of me too, it says the cases are NOT identical. Everybody does seem to be in agreement that the NATO chamber is a bit more roomy, to allow for more expansion due to the higher pressures/powder charges.

So I dont know, generally you probably would be fine shooting a M193 case in a 223 chamber, and I would bet most newer rifles could easily handle the case dimensions (if they are different). And you are right, they are running powder charges within SAAMI limits, so thats not a concern there either.

Probably 99% of the time its ok, my only concern is if the cases are actually slightly different. I remember being told the case isnt tapered as much on a 5.56mm, and the throat was slightly longer. I know, this sounds like Im describing the chambers.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:38:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Black Hills uses Nato brass and prairie dog hunters shoot it all the time through they're bolt guns.

While I agree that nato DOES have a different spec externally, it's not enough to matter and I don't agree that it will raise pressure to dangerous levels. Tight match chambers are usually made so the bullet touches the lead anyways, unlike a nato chamber, and if it's a saami powder charge, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. At least that's how I understand it. And on top of that, I've seen a few guys post on here that they've shot 5.56 pressure ammo in their bolt guns with no problems, although everyone didn't recommend it. My cousin is included in this because he tells me there is no difference in Nato and Saami loadings because he fired 5.56 through his dad's Ruger M77. I wasn't there at any of these claims so take it for what it's worth.



I dont know, I just checked on the ammo oracle again. there it says the cases are identical externally, but I got my reloading manual right in front of me too, it says the cases are NOT identical. Everybody does seem to be in agreement that the NATO chamber is a bit more roomy, to allow for more expansion due to the higher pressures/powder charges.

So I dont know, generally you probably would be fine shooting a M193 case in a 223 chamber, and I would bet most newer rifles could easily handle the case dimensions (if they are different). And you are right, they are running powder charges within SAAMI limits, so thats not a concern there either.

Probably 99% of the time its ok, my only concern is if the cases are actually slightly different. I remember being told the case isnt tapered as much on a 5.56mm, and the throat was slightly longer. I know, this sounds like Im describing the chambers.



Maybe I'm confusing chambers with Cases. But I know this, if I stand a 5.56 round like say Q3131A next to a run of the mill Remington .223, the case has a longer overall dimension that is visible to the naked eye, without measuring them. Try it out once and see if you agree with me. But that may be that .223 saami brass is just trimmed shorter, or different companies do it differently. But I still stand by the fact that I doubt the fact that American Eagle is using Lake City brass that it will be a problem with anyones rifle. Except for maybe a Mini 14. Iiiiii'm just kidding. They actually hava a nato chamber!!!
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