How accurate is XM193 ? - UPDATES on page 3 --- FINAL UPDATE page 4 - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How accurate is XM193 ? - UPDATES on page 3 --- FINAL UPDATE page 4 (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 2/3/2006 12:20:40 PM EDT

[#1]

UPDATE

So I FINALLY got the time to go to the range (and it was open), and got to shoot the Black Hills blue box ammo. I was pretty excited, and curious to see how it would compare.

The results are a little ironic.

I think what I learned is that XM193 is plenty good for me and for my rifle

Here are the ORIGINAL RESULTS with XM193 (from a few weeks ago - posted earlier in this thread)

Granted those were 5-shot groups, but still better than 3-shot groups (and there are no holes underneath the quarter

and no "flyers" off-screen).

So, here are the NEW RESULTS...

First with BLACK HILLS BLUE BOX 55gr FMJ

... and here with BLACK HILLS BLUE BOX 68gr Heavy Match

So it appear that I am shooting no better (and possibly WORSE

) with the better ammo.

So at least for the way that I was shooting, the conclusion would appear to be that XM193 is probably "good enough" for me. Alternatively, I suppose it is also possible that I had an extremely good batch of XM193 in the 10 rounds I shot in the original results. The discussion and information above suggests that I cannot expect the almost 1 MOA accuracy that it looks like I almost got with XM193 the first time.

I should also qualify that I was shooting off the bipod (Harris) and not with the rifle clamped into some contraption or off a shooting support. Also, I was not taking a huge amount of time for each shot. I would estimate a 10-20 second interval between shots at most, and often less than 10 seconds.

The rifle is a stock Eagle Arms/Armalite with a stock trigger and a non-chrome lined barrel. Free-floated barrel and with a Burris 3-9x40 in an Armalite one-pice scope mount.

Posted: 2/3/2006 12:37:58 PM EDT

[#2]

looks like you can mix and match your ammo and have it shoot to the same POI!

Load em up and blast away!

Looks pretty good to me!

Posted: 2/3/2006 3:44:42 PM EDT

[#3]

The rifle is a stock Eagle Arms/Armalite with a stock trigger and a non-chrome lined barrel. Free-floated barrel and with a Burris 3-9x40 in an Armalite one-pice scope mount.

What...no 2 stage $175 trigger........ amazing

lesson learned..it's not the equiptment as much as the shooter..to bad most don't or can't figure that out.

Your an accomplished marksmen who has skill to apply it on a variety of weapons and I'll bet you get the same results.
Something to be proud off....

Posted: 2/3/2006 4:26:18 PM EDT

[#4]

That's some nice shooting, DK.

Nothing wrong with those groups.

Posted: 2/3/2006 4:27:48 PM EDT

[#5]

Those groups look decent to me. Nothing to scoff at. Especially with basically stock equipment. I think you can shoot fine.

Posted: 2/3/2006 4:51:43 PM EDT

[#6]

very nice DK-Prof ..what were the distance and weather conditions? it's cold and windy in Illinois and i'm jealous that you were able to brave the weather conditions

Posted: 2/3/2006 6:05:55 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
very nice DK-Prof ..what were the distance and weather conditions? it's cold and windy in Illinois and i'm jealous that you were able to brave the weather conditions

It was REALLY nice in St. Louis today.

When I was on the range, it was sunny and mid 50s, but there was some wind. But not really gusty or high wind or anything.

All of these groups were at 100 yards (sorry I neglected to mention that

). The range I have access to maxes out at 100 yards.

Posted: 2/3/2006 7:33:38 PM EDT

[#8]

So it appear that I am shooting no better (and possibly WORSE ) with the better ammo.

Incorrect! You are comparing apples and oranges; 5-shot groups versus 10-shot groups. It's nice to see you shooting 10-shot groups with the Black Hills ammo and giving honest feedback. Those groups are perfectly respectable for 10-shot groups at 100 yards, (even if you don't get to make the typical internet claim about shooting less than a minute of angle groups all day long with FMJ bullets with iron sights..blah..blah...blah.) Assuming the squares on your target measure one inch, the last group you have pictured measures 1.04". I would call that excellent shooting for a 10-shot group at 100 yards.

What you need to do now is shoot some 10-shot groups at 100 yards with the XM193 ammo for comparison. I guarantee you the groups will come out larger than the 10-shot groups with the Black Hills match ammo.

Posted: 2/3/2006 7:44:05 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
So it appear that I am shooting no better (and possibly WORSE ) with the better ammo.

Incorrect! You are comparing apples and oranges; 5-shot groups versus 10-shot groups. It's nice to see you shooting 10-shot groups with the Black Hills ammo and giving honest feedback. Those groups are perfectly respectable for 10-shot groups at 100 yards, (even if you don't get to make the typical internet claim about shooting minute of angle groups all day long with FMJ bullets with iron sights..blah..blah...blah.)

What you need to do now is shoot some 10-shot groups at 100 yards with the XM193 ammo for comparison. I guarantee you the groups will come out larger than the 10-shot groups with the Black Hills match ammo.

If you end up doing side-by-side ammo comparisons, I'd take along a rod, some patches and some solvent. Do a quick patch or two in between different loads just to take care of fouling. Sometimes it can take a new load with different powder 3-4 shots or more to settle in when shooting over a previously fouled barrel. You don't have to get it pristine, but a soaked patch or two, a couple of passes with a brush and a couple of dry patches will ensure you are testing under reasonably comparable starting conditions.

Posted: 2/3/2006 7:55:14 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

This is going to be rather long but hopefully I can keep it rather painless. (sorry, I couldn't resist the pun) U.S. military specifications for M193 (MIL-C-9963) call for an accuracy requirement of a two-inch mean radius at 200 yards (using 10-shot groups). Now the red highlighted requirement stated above for Federal XM193 calls for a four-inch mean radius at 200 yards. Right from the start we can see that Federal XM193 is only required to group half as accurately as U.S. M193.

To understand the actual size of the groups we are talking about we need to understand the difference between group size as measured in extreme spread versus groups measured using the mean radius. Below is a picture of a 10-shot group of Federal XM193 fired at 100 yards. The group size or extreme spread measures 2.34" or 2.34 minutes of angle.* The mean radius of this same group is only 0.72"!

home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/group1_xm193.jpg

Mean radius as defined in Hatcher's Notebook "is the average distance of all the shots from the center of the group. It is usually about one third the group diameter" (extreme spread).

"To obtain the mean radius of a shot group, measure the heights of all shots above an arbitrarily chosen horizontal line. Average these measurements. The result is the height of the center of the group above the chosen line. Then in the same way get the horizontal distance of the center from some vertical line, such as for instance, the left edge of the target. These two measurements will locate the group center.

"Now measure the distance of each shot from this center. The average of these measures is the mean radius."

Once you get the hang of measuring groups using the mean radius it becomes very simple to do. While being very simple to do, it is also very time consuming. Modern software programs such as RSI Shooting Lab make determining the mean radius a snap.

The picture below is a screen snapshot from RSI Shooting Lab using the group from the above target. The red cross is the center of the group (a little high and right of the aiming point). The long red line shows the two shots forming the extreme spread or group size. The yellow line from the red cross to one of the shots is a radius. Measure all the radii and take the average to obtain the mean radius.

home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/group1_graph.jpg

Using Hatcher's one-third rule and applying it to my group above you can see that while not exact it is close enough for "government work."
2.34" (extreme spread) divided by 3 equals 0.78" (mean radius). Actual mean radius being 0.72".

Finally, applying Hatcher's one-third rule to Federal's requirement for XM193 of a 4" mean radius at 200 yards for three, 10-shot groups, we see that it only needs to group into a 12" average group for three 10-shot groups at 200 yards!

4" (mean radius ) times 3 equals 12" (extreme spread). 12" at 200 yards is 6 minutes of angle.

This is an outstanding post. Well done Molon.

Posted: 2/3/2006 9:02:56 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

What you need to do now is shoot some 10-shot groups at 100 yards with the XM193 ammo for comparison. I guarantee you the groups will come out larger than the 10-shot groups with the Black Hills match ammo.

I so wish I'd had time for that today - but it may be another few weeks until I can do that (unless I make time tomorrow to sneak to the range

).

Unfortunately, I've got a ton of work to do over the weekend and next week, and then I have to go out of town.

Thanks for all the great feedback and information in this thread, everyone!

Posted: 2/4/2006 8:10:37 AM EDT

[#12]

You would see more difference between those loads at longer ranges. At 100 yards, you and your rifle are working well enough together, and the ammo is consistant enough, that you aren't seeing much difference. As range increases, ammo selection becomes more important.

-Troy

Posted: 2/5/2006 12:07:50 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
You would see more difference between those loads at longer ranges. At 100 yards, you and your rifle are working well enough together, and the ammo is consistant enough, that you aren't seeing much difference. As range increases, ammo selection becomes more important.

-Troy

Good point.

Posted: 2/5/2006 12:17:29 PM EDT

[#14]

I never shot for groups using the 193 round, but if you will check the camp perry results you will see the service teams are using it in the service rifle 1000 yd matchs and its beating the old 308 scores. For a service round I would think that is more important then tight groups at 100 yds. Having said that, if you have lousy groups at 100 yards chances are you arnt gonna do that well at a 1000 yard match.

Posted: 2/5/2006 12:20:59 PM EDT

[#15]

another UPDATE

I got a lot of work done last night, so I decided to play hookie today and sneak to the range - to shoot some 10-shot groups XM193 for comparison

However, since the conditions today were VERY different, I decided to shoot some 55gr black hills blue box as well. While friday was almost 60 degree, and really pleasant with a breeze. Today, it was a little windier, and the temprature was 30 degrees (with a wind chill of 20 degrees). So, right off the bat, I would expect the groups to probably open up a little, between my cold fingers, and the shooting glasses occasionally fogging up.

Anyhoo - here are the results:

First, the 55gr BLACK HILLS (BLUE BOX)

Then, the 55gr XM193

That final round of 10 of xm193 was so bad that I was honestly tempted not to post the picture

. However, while the explanation for the wider group MIGHT be my poor shooting, or me getting cold or tired on the final group of the day, OR it might be an example of how XM193 may have more variablility in its batches - so I decided to include it and just suck up the public humiliation.

However, the overall results AGAIN seem to indicate that some pretty nice groups with XM193 are possible at 100 yards, and also (like Troy pointed out) that at the relatively short range of 100 yards, there may not be a huge difference between things like XM193 and Black Hills Blue Box.

In fact, while the worst group clearly was from the XM193, the best group also appears to be from the XM193 - although pretty close to the Black Hills Blue Box.

Again, I was shooting off the bipod, and the rifles is a non-chrome lined Eagle Arms 20" with stock trigger with a YHM free-float tube and a Burris 3-9x40 scope in an Armalite one-piece scope mount.

Posted: 2/5/2006 12:28:50 PM EDT

[#16]

your results pretty much mirror my own shooting with similiar ammo

Posted: 2/6/2006 7:10:10 AM EDT

[#17]

btt in case anyone else was curious about the final round and direct comparison between XM193 and Black Hills blue box.

Posted: 2/6/2006 8:00:40 AM EDT

[#18]

DK,

Once again, it's nice to see some honest reporting of 10-shot groups at 100 yards. Again assuming that the squares on your targets measure 1", your three 10-shot groups with the XM193 ammo measured 1.86", 1.45", and 3.04" for an average of 2.11".

Now, your two 10-shot groups with the Black Hills match hollow point ammo from your previous range trip measured 1.52" and 1.04" for an average of 1.28". That is a reduction in group size of aproximately 40%! Your smallest 10-shot group with the Black Hills match hollow point ammo was even smaller than your best 5-shot group with the XM193 ammo from your first range trip! Strong Work!

Posted: 2/6/2006 9:09:40 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
DK,

Once again, it's nice to see some honest reporting of 10-shot groups at 100 yards. Again assuming that the squares on your targets measure 1", your three 10-shot groups with the XM193 ammo measured 1.86", 1.45", and 3.04" for an average of 2.11".

Now, your two 10-shot groups with the Black Hills match hollow point ammo from your previous range trip measured 1.52" and 1.04" for an average of 1.28". That is a reduction in group size of aproximately 40%! Your smallest 10-shot group with the Black Hills match hollow point ammo was even smaller than your best 5-shot group with the XM193 ammo from your first range trip!

Strong Work!

Thanks! It was mighty tempting to NOT post that final awful 3" group!

Your conclusion matches mine, which is that I will definitely be buying more of the 68gr Black Hills, and maybe spring for the Red Box and see if that makes a difference. However, I am also guessing that 1 MOA may be about the limit of the rifle (with the stock trigger) and the way I am shooting it.

Maybe I'll try to really rest it solidly on some kind of sandbag or something next time, to see if I can get more out of the rifle with Red Box.

Posted: 2/6/2006 9:24:49 AM EDT

[#20]

Your conclusion matches mine, which is that I will definitely be buying more of the 68gr Black Hills, and maybe spring for the Red Box and see if that makes a difference.

You might also want to try the Black Hills ammo loaded with the 69 grain SMK. Some people find that it groups better in their rifles than the 68 grain load.

As for the Black Hills 55 grain FMJ ammo (or any 55 grain FMJ round for that mattter), here is a quote from Black Magic:

For accuracy usage, the 55 grain FMJ is an evil bullet... Under sufficient magnification, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to find a small "666" tattooed into its shiny little ogival head. Abandon all hope, ye who seek tiny groups here!

Posted: 2/6/2006 4:01:47 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
DK,

Once again, it's nice to see some honest reporting of 10-shot groups at 100 yards. Again assuming that the squares on your targets measure 1", your three 10-shot groups with the XM193 ammo measured 1.86", 1.45", and 3.04" for an average of 2.11".

Now, your two 10-shot groups with the Black Hills match hollow point ammo from your previous range trip measured 1.52" and 1.04" for an average of 1.28". That is a reduction in group size of aproximately 40%! Your smallest 10-shot group with the Black Hills match hollow point ammo was even smaller than your best 5-shot group with the XM193 ammo from your first range trip! Strong Work!

I would like to plus one on this one. Your last group of the 68's is by far better than any of the other groups. And consider yourself lucky. I've had 2 uppers that disliked the 68's. Now I finally got one that likes them. It is my GP load right now because I can get them locally for a decent price and I'm not paying shipping.

Your groups are good, especially for a stock trigger. I feel your pain. I've shot plenty with them and now I have an RRA lower with a NM 2 stage trigger. There is no comparison.

Posted: 2/7/2006 8:28:47 AM EDT

[#22]

Your groups are good, especially for a stock trigger

Plus one back.

Posted: 2/7/2006 10:01:27 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Your groups are good, especially for a stock trigger

Plus one back.

Thanks guys!

I just ordered some more of the 68gr match hollow point, and a couple of boxes of the 69gr sierra match king - just to see if there's be a difference.

Maybe I'll eventually be tempted by one of those fancy two-stage triggers

Posted: 2/7/2006 11:35:19 AM EDT

[#24]

I just ordered some more of the 68gr match hollow point, and a couple of boxes of the 69gr sierra match king - just to see if there's be a difference

Don't forget to post results.

Posted: 2/16/2006 7:46:45 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I just ordered some more of the 68gr match hollow point, and a couple of boxes of the 69gr sierra match king - just to see if there's be a difference.

Sure there is. And since every barrel is different.... yours will probably like one a bit better than the other. My 1:8 wilson likes the 68's, but doesnt like the 69's as well. But it averaged this on the BH 77's, and even better with my handloads:

Posted: 2/16/2006 7:51:42 AM EDT

[#26]

nice shot groupings. does anyone know what an LMT 1:7 would shoot like with certain ammo. trying to find good ammo while trying to avoid the price associated with trial and error

Posted: 2/16/2006 8:30:37 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
nice shot groupings. does anyone know what an LMT 1:7 would shoot like with certain ammo. trying to find good ammo while trying to avoid the price associated with trial and error

Every barrel is different. Consistency in the loading, brass prep, and bullet type are far more important that which bullet is chosen.

For instance, if your barrel is capable of sub-MOA.... then it will likely shoot the Black Hills 52gr, 68gr, 69gr, 75gr, and 77gr all into sub-MOA groups.

It will like some bullets, and loads, more than others. If you want a general, off the shelf, good quality round that will shoot well in a multitude of barrels, then you really cant go wrong with the BH blue box 52gr.

Posted: 2/17/2006 8:34:45 AM EDT

[#28]

If you want a general, off the shelf, good quality round that will shoot well in a multitude of barrels, then you really cant go wrong with the BH blue box 52gr.

Agreed. Every AR-15 barrel that I have fired them in has shot well with the 52 grain SMK.

Posted: 2/19/2006 7:58:11 AM EDT

[#29]

I just ordered some more of the 68gr match hollow point, and a couple of boxes of the 69gr sierra match king - just to see if there's be a difference

Any results with the 69 grain loads?

Posted: 2/19/2006 8:53:57 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I just ordered some more of the 68gr match hollow point, and a couple of boxes of the 69gr sierra match king - just to see if there's be a difference

Any results with the 69 grain loads?

Nope

I've unfortunately been super-busy with work and travel. I finally had TIME to go this weekend, but it was 7 degrees outside yesterday (with a wind chill of -5) so I figured that the comparison probably woudl be useless, mostly because of me being cold and uncomfortable, but I'm also unsure if really low temps like that have any effect on accuracy?

It's a little warmer today (around freezing) but when I was about to head out the door, I suddenly remembered that there's an event at the range today - some kind of "fun-family day" shooting.

So it'll be next week at the earliest.

Sorry

Posted: 2/19/2006 9:10:48 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
... I finally had TIME to go this weekend, but it was 7 degrees outside yesterday (with a wind chill of -5) so I figured that the comparison probably woudl be useless, mostly because of me being cold and uncomfortable, but I'm also unsure if really low temps like that have any effect on accuracy?

You need to move to Texas.

Here I am shooting in short sleeves day before yesterday.

Posted: 2/19/2006 9:49:30 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
... I finally had TIME to go this weekend, but it was 7 degrees outside yesterday (with a wind chill of -5) so I figured that the comparison probably woudl be useless, mostly because of me being cold and uncomfortable, but I'm also unsure if really low temps like that have any effect on accuracy?

You need to move to Texas.

Here I am shooting in short sleeves day before yesterday.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=45115

You guys have universities in Texas??

Actually, I could totally live in Texas. I think I'd like it there, and I'd be perfectly happy to go to UT-Austin or Texas A&M. Texas A&M atually recruited my wife for a job about 5 years ago, but she wasn't overly excited about College Station as a place to live

Great picture, btw!

Posted: 2/19/2006 9:50:46 AM EDT

[#33]

Thanks for the work,your results come in similar to what I have found except you seem to be a better shooter than I am!
I do agree that multiple 10 shot groups give you better info than a couple 3 or 5 shot groups.
I have just gotten my first varmint type upper (bushy factory type) and am just gearing up for some bench work. Some quick preliminary shooting (in bad weather) has shown me that a lightweight bipod enters a whole new set of varriables into the mix compared to sandbags .
Past shooting has proven to me that XM193 can have quite a difference from lot to lot,I have 5 or 6 different lots in my stockpile and I need to revisit this also as I do further testing . Crazy thing Is the best stuff I have shot (as far as XM193) by quite a bit is some really nasty looking XM193PD that I bought before I understood what it really was!
All my uppers untill I bought the bushy varmint special have been garden variety 1/9 chrome lined barrels and my go to ammo for quick testing has been Winchester 45gr Varmint ($13+/- at Waltmart for 40 rounds).This stuff has always shot very good for me.

Posted: 2/26/2006 11:01:22 AM EDT

[#34]

FINAL UPDATE

So I finally had a chance to go shoot some more, this time I had time to shoot the following on the same day:

1. XM193
2. 55 gr Black Hills FMJ (Blue Box)
3. 68 gr Black Hills HP (Blue Box)
4. 69 gr Black Hills Sierra Match King (Blue Box)

Also, I decided to drop in a RRA national match two-stage trigger. With my C&R discount at Brownell's, it was only about $75, and I had become curious whether it would make any difference (which was why I shot all four different types of ammo today).

Everything else remained the same. 20" Eagle Arms AR, with a non-chromelined barrel, a YHM freefloat tube and harris bipod, an Armalite scope mount and a Burris 3-9x40 scope.

I was shooting off the bipod, and probably took about 10-15 seconds between shots (sometimes less, if I'm feeling good). The weather was sunny and bright, with no wind, and temps in the mid to high 30s. Other than that, everything remained the same, and all shots are at 100 yards.

First, here is XM193:

Then, here is 55 gr Black Hills:

Here is 68 gr Black Hills:

Finally, here is 69 gr Black Hills SMK:

Without detailed measurement, and just eyeballing it - my initial conclusions are three-fold:

First, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference or benefit to the 69gr SMK over the 68gr (because of me, or the rifle), so I can probably save my money and just use the 68gr

Second, I'm not sure the fancy trigger really made much of a difference in terms of accuracy. I'm not sure whether that is because something else is limiting the accuracy - like ME

, or the fact that I am not clamped down but just shooting off the bipod, or the barrel itself?

Third, in terms of me shooting this rifle, 1 MOA is probably the best I will ever do, since I'm not quite there, but at least getting close.

Posted: 2/26/2006 12:30:28 PM EDT

[#35]

Thats good shooting!

I think those groups will shrink with Sand bag!

I have good days and Bad?

Ive used the FEDERAL 69bthp prone with a A1 20hbar/3.5x10x42 and shot a 3 in one hole! but when I shot 10 rds strings I get about the same as you! Find a Sand bag or Lead shot bag for reloading shotguns! Good luck to you!

Posted: 2/26/2006 7:54:47 PM EDT

[#36]

btt for anyone interested

Posted: 2/26/2006 9:24:59 PM EDT

[#37]

Good shooting +1

Posted: 2/26/2006 9:30:59 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
btt for anyone interested

DK thanks for taking the time to post your results, youve done well

Posted: 2/26/2006 9:49:11 PM EDT

[#39]

Thanks guys.

I definitely found it interesting that the trigger didn't really seem to help me a whole lot (especially since it FEELS significantly better, and gives me more control).

Posted: 2/26/2006 10:15:27 PM EDT

[#40]

DK,

That about mirrors what I can do with a scope, banch, bipod, and AR with XM-193 or Q3131A and a serious effort. Pretty good shooting there by the way! I do find that with the match loads I shoot a more consistant group but XM-193 can actually turn in quite a nice target. For me the test is really can I hit a target clay at the desired range? If I can I feel pretty good that I can most anything of substance I want to.

I always tell people to try the Winchester Silver Tip from Walmart for a potential treat. I never got better than 2" at 100yds with the surplus stuff, and black hills was just not doing much for the extra cost. I took a couple of boxes of that stuff out one day and I nearly cried a little when I saw the target. 10 rounds nicely centered about the number 10 all within just over 1" of each other. That's when I saw what they rifle could do. It was pretty consistant at that over the 4 targets I shot. Then came the natural move to reloading since that cost me about $0.80 per round. You may or may not get the same results but I became much more certain of my shooting after that day.

I actually tend to shoot more 7 shot groups than 10. Why? Because I found that I almost always jerk or flinch one the longer the string and more fatigued I get. While I do beleive in reporting what the rife is actually capable of, you have to take into account that you are measuring you and the rifle. Push it too far and you are starting to measure more of you and less of the rifle.

Posted: 2/26/2006 10:19:04 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

I always tell people to try the Winchester Silver Tip from Walmart for a potential treat.

I definitely need to try that someday. Thanks!!

Posted: 2/27/2006 8:16:29 AM EDT

[#42]

DK,

Another excellent range report! I can't say it enough times; it's great to see someone honestly reporting 10-shot groups at 100 yards. Your XM193 groups from this report have an average size of 2.30". (Sheds a little more light on those claims of people shooting minute of angle with XM193.) The Black Hills 55 FMJ have an average group size of 1.72". The Black Hills 68 Match averaged 1.64" and the Black Hills 69 SMK averaged 1.61".

You might be approaching the limits of your factory barrel since the Black Hills 68 and 69 are grouping so similar to each other. Great shooting!

Posted: 2/27/2006 8:17:32 AM EDT

[#43]

Last time out! I was zeroing the 551 on a 14.5 LMT it was windy coldwet! at the end of the Day I used 20rds of BH blue 77gr. it was my worst group!

Posted: 2/27/2006 8:50:11 AM EDT

[#44]

Absolutly great thread!

+1000000000000000000000000

oh, and thank you DK

this has been a very informative and helpful post for me.

Posted: 2/27/2006 9:35:55 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
DK,

Another excellent range report! I can't say it enough times; it's great to see someone honestly reporting 10-shot groups at 100 yards. Your XM193 groups from this report have an average size of 2.30". (Sheds a little more light on those claims of people shooting minute of angle with XM193.) The Black Hills 55 FMJ have an average group size of 1.72". The Black Hills 68 Match averaged 1.64" and the Black Hills 69 SMK averaged 1.61".

You might be approaching the limits of your factory barrel since the Black Hills 68 and 69 are grouping so similar to each other. Great shooting!

Thanks - I appreciate you providing such nice summaries!!

I'm definitely up against some kind of limit - perhaps the run-of-the-mill barrel, and perhaps some combination of my ability and the bipod rest as opposed to something slightly more stable. I'll probably keep buying the 68gr Black Hills, though, because it seems pretty consistenly better than the 55gr, and pretty much as good as the 69gr - given my constraints. At this point, I'd love to have access to a 300 yard range, but that might be a while.

In any event, I think this thread has certainly answered my original question about the inherently accuracy of XM193, which I now believe is at best 2 MOA.

Posted: 2/27/2006 10:51:56 AM EDT

[#46]

Give it a few months, when things warm up a bit, and you'll probably do even better. When temps are in the 30's F, you as the shooter are not going to perform as well as when you aren't trying to keep warm. Let the temps get into the high 60s-low 80s, and you'll be more relaxed and won't be as prone to rushing your shots. You also need to work on your breathing, which again, is harder to do in the cold.

Given that you've likely got a 1 MOA rifle, and that you're shooting only 60% or so over that (which is smaller than it sounds), you're doing just fine. Oh, and +1 on the kudos for shooting TEN shot groups.

Don't worry, Prof; you're still a very dangerous man, and with more than just a red pen!

-Troy

Posted: 2/27/2006 11:52:25 AM EDT

[#47]

WOW a compliment from a pro!

Posted: 2/27/2006 12:47:53 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
WOW a compliment from a pro!

Thanks Troy!

Looking over at Armalite's webpage, they list their regular M15A4 (the chrome-lined version of my Eagle Arms rifle) as having an accuracy of 1.5-2.0 MOA.

I don't know if the chrome lining makes much of a difference, but I imagine that Molon may be correct that some of those groupings may be aproaching the limits of the barrel - which is probably around 1.5 MOA at best.

Posted: 2/27/2006 3:52:22 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
WOW a compliment from a pro!

If you meant me, I'm definitely FAR from a PRO shooter. I'm decent for being self-taught, but I've only ever shot in one match, and didn't do that great. There are some GOOD (and by that, I mean AMAZING) shooters out there, and I'm not among them, at least not yet.

-Troy

Posted: 2/27/2006 5:04:08 PM EDT

[#50]

Thanks again
I would encourage you to grab a box of the Win 45 gr VARMINT when you are at wallmart picking up those silvertips.
I also think you are on the right track in thinking that you might do better with a sandbag or other rest vs a bipod.
I am going to spend some of my tax refund on a decent rest,I feel I really need to throw out just a little bit more variation so I can beter test my rifles and ammo.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How accurate is XM193 ? - UPDATES on page 3 --- FINAL UPDATE page 4 (Page 2 of 3)

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