Quoted: How about this , a easy solution to the problem. Everyone donates $5 to me from ar15.com I go out , buy about 100lbs of gel mix and make up dozens of blocks , shoot them at varied distances ,and we can figure up a relationship of distance/weight/fragmentation and see if that works. Science is great , but no one could of told me a 55gr WWB round would fragment so early in the block. When it comes to data and testing , my theroy with any sort of data is : try it out in person , over and over again , becuase opinnions are like well......you know what :D

I'll donate the range, the ammo, and the shooter.

I'd love to see real-deal testing at range of a variety of loads... Great thinking guys.

FWIW I've read the ammo oracle quite a few times now, and - while very comprehensive - it's simply not possible for it to contain the answer to every single question... And I don't think it was meant to. But I still see a lot of people just typing the pat response "Read the ammo oracle" as if that is the answer to everything... It isn't...

You know I was actually going to post that we should all chip in $5 via paypal to help pay for some of the gel costs if you would test a couple of different loads. I would really like to know how Georgia Arms and Lancer Ammo do, if you have any i'd be more than willing to pay pal you some money to cover the cost of the gel.

Quoted: .177 cal match air rifle  that's supposed to give the same velocity as the fbi requirement. I also shot it with a .22 20gr primer-only bullet which from what i understand has almost identical characteristics to the FBI test. After going through 4-5 blocks , I felt it was upto par enough to test and post pictures. When the chrono gets repaired ( I have 3 , only one works mediocre) I can run some more tests. The few times i've shot small animals with the WWB , it seemed to fragment relatively close to what the gel block did. I'm not expecting it to be 100% of the FBI test , but within +/- 5% of what thier gel consistantcy is at. If I had the cash , believe me , i'd be firing at blocks all day , but that won't happen till i get the oz cost of the gel below the 80 cents i'm paying right now ( 10% gel means 90% water/10% gel by weight , water weighs more than you'd think)

And By Zhukov:

WDR - check the original post again. He did mention he did calibrate the gelatin.

I can see that now. It wasn't clear in the first post, and then Shocker mentioned in a later post that he didnt have a chrono available, so I was confused on how he calibrated the gel without a chrono. He's cleared that part up, as you can see above. I wasnt trying to criticize, just looking for clarification.

Its nice to see some testing done independantly, as I dont have time or money to pour into my own gel tests, and I had wondered about this particular rounds performance, as I suspect the FMJ bulletsin WWB are the same ones going into IMI 193, just at a slightly slower velocity. Thanks Shocker!

SWO:  Relax amigo, this is the tech-forums section not General Discussion. Have a little respect and act like an adult. If you take the time to read the ammo-oracle, and a the articles by Dr Fackler posted in the tacked threads at the top of this forum, you'll find an explanation as to how we draw conclusions from raw data. Its not a matter of equations, BTW.

In the simplest terms, a particular bullet will have a certain percentage of fragmentation at certain velocities. There is a minimum velocity where the bullet will simply yaw, and try to proceed heavy (back) end first thru the gel/tissue, and then there is a range of velocity were the bullet *may* fragment, but could possibly stay intact, and then there is a range of velocity, up to the maximim velocity, where the bullet will almost certainly fragment dramatically. These ranges of velocities vary, depending on type, manufacturer, and construction of the bullet in question.

There is a chart listing velocities for the popular loads, and extrapolated fragmentation data tacked somewhere near the top of this forum. There are some people who have shot gel at varying ranges, and their results generally match those charts.

Bullets vary from bullet to bullet, even in the same lot, and with manufacturing tolerences, there is a chance that some bullets will fragment at a lower vellocity, and some wont fragment even at max velocity. Terminal ballistics is not a perfect science.

Lets try to keep it civil

ETA the bold text, as that seems to be the rub with SWO and others...

I've currently been looking at another method of ballisitc gel production that'd cut my costs in half. The problem is the gel's cost of 89 cents/ounce. 10% gel means for every pound of water , it takes 1.6oz of gel mix to do. What i've contemplated is proceeding in making about 20-30 ballistic blocks and testing a variety of loads out in real world situations. No one has tested wolf yet , so i might as well do it :D.  

I'm gonna go out and look for more gel at a cheaper price and see if i can't get another block to try out monday or tuesday. I got some adcom m855 i'd like to try. I think i'll try out one of my crappier cronos to see if i can get a reading from it during the test.

Quoted: Quoted: I've currently been looking at another method of ballisitc gel production that'd cut my costs in half. The problem is the gel's cost of 89 cents/ounce. 10% gel means for every pound of water , it takes 1.6oz of gel mix to do. What i've contemplated is proceeding in making about 20-30 ballistic blocks and testing a variety of loads out in real world situations. No one has tested wolf yet , so i might as well do it :D.   I too would be interested in helping you recover some of your costs. Wolf has been tested by brou and tat, and they found it to not fragment. Their original experiment has been lost though.

I also would be interested in the results with various ammunition, I'll help out with $ so you don't have to foot the expence by yourself,  just let me know how man.

Quoted: These bullets are the same 55 grain projectiles that IMI uses in their military loads.  One would expect a similar neck to Q3131A, the only difference should be about 150fps lower velocity.  Best I have been able to understand it, the neck is a function of the ogive, length and center of gravity of the round.  Your result could have been a fluke.

Why would it have been a fluke if what you're saying is true?  That it is the same bullet used in Q3131A.  I don't have those two to compare but I do have the Q3131 and the WWB VP.  I'll take a picture.  But the velocity you stated is probably about the difference between a 20" and a 14.5" barrel.  And Q3131A does, according to the tacked thread, fragment.  

I might be missing something, but I'm not following your reasoning.

Quoted: I am not saying the fragmentation is a fluke, On the contrary, I am saying the longer than normal neck for this particular test is likely an outlier.

AAAAAAAHHH,  I get ya.  Well, I looked at the Q3131 and the WWB 40 round VP and they are  VERY VERY similar.  Slightly different color but  only a hair.  Which could just be the difference in runs.  However, the cannelure is exposed on the WWB and not the Q3131.  I'm not sure what that is about.  But they are, for the most part, consistent as to how much it sticks out.

But, from my recollection, the Q3131A bullet is more pointed.  That, I'll have to confrim later.



Sorry about the crappy pic.  Might not help much but I put it in there anyways.

It would seem to me that IMI would use the same 55grn  bullet for Winchester ammo...either WWB or Q31a.  The difference in the neck would be caused by the energy difference in the two rounds.

Q31a arrives with more velocity/energy so it would frag quicker, no?

B

*update*

I went out last night and got alot more gel mix and some additive to try and cut down my costs a bit , don't know if it'll work but i now have enough gel to test 2-3 more cartridges.

I decided that i'm gonna start archiving my findings ,as well as get my chronos repaired so i can provide more conclusive tests and the like. I registered a website this morning so i can record all my findings in a friendly format for all the people that want to view em.

So far , on the list to test are

62gr Adcom m855
55gr Remingon UMC
55gr Georgia arm's V-max precision ammo
50gr american eagle HPBT
I got some 55gr american eagle FMJ , but federal did alot of testing on it , all i'd be doing would be a test with a 20" barrel to thier 14.5 m4

I also got a good bit of 7.62x39 i'd like to try out and see how it works out in the gel , as seeing that not alot of data has been released regarding the round.

Tell me what ya think , i'm contemplating just doing polls and such and every week test a couple new rounds and see what happens with them.

Quoted: Quoted: It would seem to me that IMI would use the same 55grn  bullet for Winchester ammo...either WWB or Q31a.  The difference in the neck would be caused by the energy difference in the two rounds. Q31a arrives with more velocity/energy so it would frag quicker, no? B Don't work that way. It yaws and then frags.  The 'neck' or when the bullet commences yawing is a property of bullet design and shape, not velocity.  A couple of hundred feet difference in velocity should have no noticable effect here.

+1,     plus I wouldn't assume anything about the bullets being the same.  You could be right and it makes sense that they would be, but that doesn't make it so. Does anyone have any Q3131A and USA 55 grain made in Israel to compare?

Fruit pectin........

I came on a recipie on one site that delt with ballistic gel production ,and it said if you do a 5% pectin , 5% gel , 90% water ,you can do a 10% ballistic gel ,and cut your costs a bit becuase pectin is 1/2 the price of gel.  (just for refrence, pectin is what they make jellies and jams with)

JJREA:
I have some at home. I'll pull a couple of the bullets and slice them apart to see if they are the same.

Terry in NC

Shocker,
How are you keeping your blocks at the right temperture?  Do you have a range in your backyard?

Origninally Posted by SWO_Daddy: Do you mind explaining why ballistic gelatin testing is done only at distances that are not representative of the actual use of firearms?

Two problems with this statement.

1) First is the assumption that 15y isn't representatvie of acutual use of firearms.   For CQB, peronsal defense (CCW), and home defense shootings this would be a VERY common distance so it's entirely approprite to publish data for this distance.

2) Tests are done at longer ranges.  Just because you can't find it with a GOOGLE search doesn't mean it's neither done nor published.  How do you think the min fragmentation velocity was found?  And once you know what the round will fragment down to, it's a pretty simple matter to figure out what that translate to in terms of range (which is how I'm sure the 'fragmentation tables' were generated).

Quoted: JJREA: I have some at home. I'll pull a couple of the bullets and slice them apart to see if they are the same. Terry in NC

Wow, cool!!!!

Right now , i'm keeping the gel blocks outside in a sealed container. The temp is averaging about 30-35 out , and its been good. I'm keeping some blocks to see if the temperature changes hurt em much , the initial test block was kept overnight outside when it was about 35* with no temp swings of more than 5 degrees or so.

We generally use 40 lbs blocks of 10% gel for 5.56 mm shots and 60-80 lbs for larger rifle calibers.

For longer range shots try three things:  

Get yourself a large hard steel plate with a 6 inch or so circular hole in it--place this in front of your chronograph screens and gel block.  With the hole positioned correctly, you generally get either a good centered hit on the block without damage to your chronograph or you hit the plate--every once in a while you'll get an edge shot on the rim of the hole in the plate that can cause problems.

Use a good scope.  

Place a paper target adjacent to your gel block.  Confirm your zero with a shot on the paper first before shooting the gel block through the hole in the steel plate.

Thank you for your efforts and I look forward to your next set of tests.  

Quoted: *update* I went out last night and got alot more gel mix and some additive to try and cut down my costs a bit , don't know if it'll work but i now have enough gel to test 2-3 more cartridges. I decided that i'm gonna start archiving my findings ,as well as get my chronos repaired so i can provide more conclusive tests and the like. I registered a website this morning so i can record all my findings in a friendly format for all the people that want to view em. So far , on the list to test are 62gr Adcom m855 55gr Remingon UMC 55gr Georgia arm's V-max precision ammo 50gr american eagle HPBT I got some 55gr american eagle FMJ , but federal did alot of testing on it , all i'd be doing would be a test with a 20" barrel to thier 14.5 m4 I also got a good bit of 7.62x39 i'd like to try out and see how it works out in the gel , as seeing that not alot of data has been released regarding the round. Tell me what ya think , i'm contemplating just doing polls and such and every week test a couple new rounds and see what happens with them.

Hey, 1st of all, thanks for bringing some emperical data to a topic that's full of hearsay and conjecture.  How about this test?  The gelatin sitting behind a 1/8" sheet of steel, shot with M855 and M193.  I'd like to see the differences between the 2 after penetrating a barrier at close distances.  If you don't want to do it, can you tell me where to buy the gelatin?  I'll give it a whirl.

You can buy the gel at walmart ,ect , its just normal off the shelf unflavored gelatin.

I'm getting ready to start a next round of tests , but i had an idea.........

I really would like to test the ability of rounds to do high ammounts of damage on simulated peripheral shots (arms ,legs ,ect) To do that , i've  found out that cattle bone has a similar density to human bone , so i'm tempted to start molding gel into leg/arm like targets and shooting them , then testing the effectivness of the bullet after its come in contact with something hard like that. Just an idea , i've got enough gel to test 3 more rounds or so.

What should i pick for the test out of the ones i listed? I'm in the process of setting up a website to test all my findings  ( ballisticsworld.com )

I think it could be a very neat project setting up a resource for all the various civilian ammo that's cheap and such ,as a normal shooter will be using it MUCH more often than the fancy tactical/zombie killing ammo.

You should actually call your site "The Jell-o of Truth"

Mold of truth would be more appropriate :) I'm a big fan of the box of truth.

Cool! I'd like to see what 7.62x39mm: super X soft/power point, and some ballistic tip/amax bullet, Barnaul SP would do.  Also some 6.8 SPC ammo would be interesting.
                                         

Type 250 A gel powder is not readily available at your local market....

Vyse and Knox are equally good and can be used interchangeably.

I think Jell O' Truth would be better

This may help.

Vyse Gelatin Company     5010 N. Rose Street • Schiller Park, Illinois 60176

        Edible and Pharmaceutical Gelatins       (847) 678-4780             Fax: (847)678-0329
   E-mail: sales @ vyse.com           Website: www.vyse.com

BALLISTIC GELATIN MIXING PROCEDURES PRACTICED BY THE FBI

In December 1988, the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit (FTU) designed and implemented the FBI Ammunition Tests.  The test designs are based on research and consultation with experts in the fields of wound ballistics, forensic pathology, wound research and medical research.  The full report of this research is available on the FBI Ammunition Data and Sniper Targets CD ROM.  This CD may be obtained from the FBI Ballistic Research Facility. The tissue simulant utilized in FBI ballistic tests is Vyse Ordinance Gelatin.

The mixture is 10%, by weight.  The mentioned research shows that properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant.  Calibration of ballistic gelatin is verified by firing a .177 steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" – 3.74").  During FBI tests, any gelatin blocks, which fail the calibration test, are discarded.  Calibration results are not published due to the Pass/Fail nature of the test.

Mixing Gelatin

The gelatin is mixed in the following manner (assuming a twenty-pound block is desired)

1) Weigh out two (2) lbs. of gelatin powder and place aside
2) Weigh out 18 lbs. of hot 60° C (140° F) water in a plastic bucket. (Note: The FBI utilizes a scale, which weighs to the nearest .01 lb)
3) Place 2.5 ml of Foam Eater in water
4) Place approximately .5 ml. of oil of cinnamon into water (prevents fungus growth)
5) While utilizing a battery-operated drill with a mixing paddle attached, mix the water to the point of forming a whirlpool, without introducing air into the mixture
6) While the water is being mixed, slowly add the gelatin powder
7) Pour the mixture into a clean mold pan
8) Allow to stand at room temperature for approximately 4 hours
9) Write date on small square of cardboard and place on top of mixture
10) Place pan with mixture into refrigerator set at 4° C (39.2° F)
11) Allow curing for 36 hours (note: larger blocks require longer cure time. (e.g. an 80lb block requires 96 hours to cure)

Blocks, over time, deteriorate and are temperature sensitive. Former FBI publications advocated utilizing blocks within 20 minutes of removal from the refrigerator, a general statement pertaining to ambient temperature indoors).  Allowable time outside the refrigerator is, however, relative to the temperature of the test environment (e.g. a block removed from a refrigerator and maintained in a room at the same temperature as the refrigerator will retain its calibration significantly longer than one placed outside on a hot summer day).  

Note:  Some authorities believe mixing procedures may vary the consistency of gelatin.  FBI studies indicate, however, that a block, which displays the required level of penetration, within the required velocity range, is a “valid” tissue simulant.  The FBI Ballistic Research Facility conducts its tests in an environmentally controlled shooting laboratory.  The blocks of gelatin are removed from the refrigerator and checked for calibration.  Only valid blocks are used for test.

Blocks used in testing of conventional pistol ammunition are approximately 6.25" X 6.25" X 16".  The initial block of gelatin used in a test is referred to as “The Primary Block”.  Each Primary Block is utilized for a maximum of five shots, one in each corner, approximately 1.75" from the nearest edge, and one in the center.

Tests conducted by the FBI indicate this placement of shots results in substantially the same penetration as single shots into virgin blocks of gelatin.  Any shots, which cross the wound path of previous shots, are re-fired.  Primary blocks are not utilized for more than five shots, to include any shots, which are re-fired.

Because some shots may penetrate more than one block of gelatin, one or more “stopper” blocks are placed behind the primary block.  The stopper blocks may be utilized for more than one test, if the wound channels are not crossed.  At the end of each test, the stopper block is placed back into the refrigerator while another stopper is utilized with an unused Primary block.

Stopper blocks may receive more than five penetrations; if no wound channels are crossed, (e.g. a stopper, which has five penetrations of 3” into one end, can be flipped over and used as a subsequent “stopper.”)

The FBI does not reuse gelatin.  Used blocks are discarded.


FBI PENETRATION TESTING

The purpose of the FBI Penetration Test is to determine the following information regarding a particular cartridge:

1) The penetration performance of the cartridge’s projectile, throughout the series of eight tests (depth of penetration to nearest .25 inch, expansion of projectile, retained weight of the projectile).
2) The average velocity both from A test barrel and a service weapon.
3) The average accuracy both from A test barrel and a service weapon.
4) The test medium utilized is 10% ballistic gelatin, by weight.

Tests one through six are shot at a distance of 10 feet from the muzzle to the first barrier.  
Seven and Eight are shot at a distance of 20 yards from the muzzle.

1) Test One - Bare Gelatin
2) Test Two - Heavy Clothing - The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing. One each of the following:
A) cotton t-shirt material (approx 48 threads per inch & 5.25 ounces per square yard)
B) Cotton dress shirt material (approx 85 threads per inch & 3.5 ounces per square yard)
C) A down comforter (500-550 fill power) in a cambric shell (approx 232 threads per inch)
D) Denim (approx 50 threads per inch & 14.4 ounce per square yard)

The shots are fired to not impact on a stitch line of the comforter.  Tests 3-6 utilize light clothing (e.g. the cotton t-shirt and dress shirt materials above), in addition to the mentioned intermediate barrier.

3) Test Three - Steel - Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot-rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart.  The clothing covered gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel.  This test event simulates the weakest part of a car door.  
4) Test Four - Wallboard - Two pieces of ½-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart.  The gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum.  This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.
5) Test Five - Plywood - One piece of 3/4 inch “AA” fir plywood is set 18" in front of the gelatin block.  This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.
6) Test Six - Automobile Glass - One piece (15" X 18") of A.S.I. 1/4 inch laminated automobile safety glass is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal and 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle.  The gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the glass.  This test event simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle.
7) Test Seven - Heavy Clothing at 20 yards.  This test event repeats test event 2, but at 20 yards.
8) Test Eight - Automobile Glass at 20 yards.  This test repeats test event 6, but at 20 yards and without the 15° horizontal offset.  This simulates a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.  Close Quarter Battle (CQB) testing is designed to provide information regarding the performance of projectiles fired from commonly used carbines  

The CQB testing consists of tests 1-7 and the following:  Bare Gelatin at 100 yards Exterior Wall at 10 feet - This test assesses the effectiveness of rounds fired into lightly clothed gelatin through a common exterior wall (2" X 4" studs covered by 5/8" gypsum board and 3/4" plywood with 3.5" of fiberglass insulation and vinyl siding).

Body Armor - This test assesses the performance of the projectile when fired against a subject wearing Level III-A Body Armor.  If the III-A panels stop the projectile, it is retested against Level II-A (both test results would be published).  The penetration shots are conducted with a test barrel.

When practical / available, in order to allow for more consistent comparison of the AMMUNITION, the results received from a test barrel might be the same, or different than, those from a service weapon.

A service weapon is utilized during velocity and accuracy tests in order to show a perspective of the deviation, if any, from the test barrel.  It is important to note that a cartridge should not be chosen solely due to its accuracy from a service weapon, unless that accuracy is compared to other cartridges fired from the same EXACT service weapon. Results may vary somewhat from firearm to firearm, including functional characteristics.  One pistol may be substantially more accurate, or produce higher velocity than another of the same make and model produces.  Each test report will clearly specify the weapon used for testing.


CRITERIA FOR WHICH THE FBI WILL CONDUCT PENETRATION
TESTING FOR OUTSIDE AGENCIES

Ammunition must conform to the voluntary standards recommended by the Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI).
1) Ammunition must be “Newly Manufactured” and consist of no previously used or loaded components
2) Ammunition must be currently utilized, or being strongly considered, as a duty round by the requesting agency
3) Ammunition must be currently available to the Law Enforcement market
4) Ammunition must be substantially different from other ammunition previously tested by the FBI.  (Identical projectiles at the same velocity from different companies will generally not be tested)
5) Request must be made on Official Agency Letterhead Stationary, signed by a supervisory level or higher officer.  Two hundred rounds of ammunition must accompany request from the same lot number. No ammunition will be returned.  


May 1, 2004 Ordnance Gelatin Price Listing

 25# $6.00 per pound FOB

 50# $5.25 per pound FOB

100# $5.00 per pound FOB

300# $5.00 per pound FOB

4 ounces Foam - Eater $18.00

FOB Pricing-Schiller Park, Illinois 60176 USA


To make a standard FBI block you will need 2/lbs of ballistic gel per block.


E=MV²  ( ENERGY =  MASS times VOLICITY squared )


Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) on gelatin & Foam - Eater will be enclosed with the product that is ordered.

A Certificate of Analysis will be enclosed with each shipment.

Prices effective through June 1, 2005

Any new results?

Quoted: You know what? Fuck it.  I'm not going to wade through pages of shit looking for how fragmentation threshold velocities are calculated, and whether or not someone has actually tested those threshold velocities for fragmentation in gel at the predicted distance. If someone who actually has that knowledge can't be bothered to answer the question, then I must wonder about the validity of their statements and conclusions.

Maybe this will satisfy you.


I am assuming you know enough about external ballistics to know that as long as we know the ballistic coefficient of the bullet (we do for M193) and its muzzle velocity, equations exist (do you really need these, too?) to determine how many yards out the bullet will be at "x" velocity.

How's that?

Right now i've been waiting on getting my chronographs repaired so i can do better reports on the ammo. I've saved up enough gel for about 3 tests ,so it'll be getting a good bit done within a month or so. The website is completely done , but i haven't linked it to the main page yet , it looks pretty nice.