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Posted: 1/12/2006 2:24:43 AM EDT
Does the 75 grain TAP fragment or expand (mushroom)?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 2:35:48 AM EDT
Tacked to the top of this forum is some of the best Ammunition info found anywhere, had you looked there you'd have found this which covers your question and more: www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm



Mike
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:01:44 AM EDT
TAP uses an open-tip match bullet. It is neither designed to fragment nor mushroom, though I suspect that it fragments more often than not.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:11:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
TAP uses an open-tip match bullet. It is neither designed to fragment nor mushroom, though I suspect that it fragments more often than not.


? My TAP ammo has a plastic tip
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:14:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 9:17:16 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By twonami:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
TAP uses an open-tip match bullet. It is neither designed to fragment nor mushroom, though I suspect that it fragments more often than not.


? My TAP ammo has a plastic tip





Hornady also has a 75grn A-MAX round which has the polmer tip too, like the lower weight TAP rounds, which also have the polymer tip, but the 75grn TAP round mentioned above, as noted, is a match BTHP round which is excellent for self-defense use.


Mike
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:17:45 AM EDT
gotcha, I just checked and it's the 60gr that I have
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:19:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 10:20:48 AM EDT by ogcujo]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Tacked to the top of this forum is some of the best Ammunition info found anywhere, had you looked there you'd have found this which covers your question and more: www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm



Mike


(The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question? You are correct I did not read through all the gelatin/velocity/test etc. My question is, does the 75 gr TAP frag or mushroom.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:26:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 10:29:00 AM EDT by thezman]
At velocities above 2400 fps it SHOULD frag in gel.

Here's the FRAG CHART for various projectiles.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:36:34 AM EDT
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:46:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?



B&T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #5:

"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."


It is there as large as life. Open your eyes son.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 11:09:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 11:11:34 AM EDT by HardShell]


...

Results notes/Observations:

1. The velocity of the best performers in each category was the highest measured. The 77gr at 2624 fps and the 75gr at 2616 fps.

2. Velocities as over 100 fps SLOWER than a similar round loaded to NATO pressures.

3. Fragmentation of each round was quite dramatic, and both rounds had VERY similar neck lengths at 4cm (1.57"). While this is not as short as we'd like, and doesn't quite compare to the 0.5" neck length of the 100gr round, it is still good.

4. Total recovered weight of the projectiles were:

75gr: 75gr
77gr: 74.2gr

5. Largest recovered fragment (deepest penetrating in both cases)

75gr: 35.6gr

77gr: 32.1gr

6. All of the 75gr rounds veered off in one direction or another, but would have most likely equaled the 77gr in terms of penetration if they had kept a straight course.

7. The nose of each round was sheered off rather quickly in each case. You can identify the fragments in the charts below.


conclusions:

These rounds will fragment at MUCH lower velocities than standard M193 or M855 ammunition will, making them suitable for shorter barreled rifles, or for longer distance shots. Both faired very well, and are just about equals to each other, and definitely outperformed our previous M193 experiments and the M855 data that we've seen. However, we both think that the 77gr Nosler has a larger temporary wound cavity than the 75gr Hornady. However, this could have been due to the slightly increased velocity. However, given that the Nosler *slightly* outperformed the Hornady, we would choose the Hornady over the Nosler due to the possible setback issues inherent in non-cannelured rounds.



...

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 11:37:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 11:37:38 AM EDT by Rmplstlskn]

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?



B&T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #5:

"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."


It is there as large as life. Open your eyes son.



Slam bootie!
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:01:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 3:54:39 AM EDT by ogcujo]

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?



B&T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #5:

"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."


It is there as large as life. Open your eyes son.



Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?



B&T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #5:

"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."


It is there as large as life. Open your eyes son.



Slam bootie!




"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."
The tap is loaded for .223 rem not 5.56mm. They do not mention if it is indeed a BTHP under bullet type they say TAP or TAP-PD.
Hornady makes different bullets, how do you know the tap is the same exact round they are mentioning? How do you know if its loaded to the same specs? I want them to say TAP not 75 grain. I will try to contact Hornady tomorrow and post the answer. If I'm wrong then I can easily stand corrected, but if I'm wright and its not the same as the ones in the test, please try not to get your panty's in a bunch lady's. As soon as I find out I'll post back hear.

PS. Don't get me wrong (I'm not an ass hole) I DO hope your wright. I just want to make 100% sure were talking the TAP and not anything else. I would accept the test and ballistics chart quick and shut the f*&ck up if they mentioned the TAP once. lol But I have to be thorough.

***Edited for politeness ***
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:52:58 PM EDT
Tagged for the crow eating fest.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:57:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thezman:
Tagged for the crow eating fest.


Lmao
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:32:06 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:54:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 1:55:41 AM EDT by PocketG]
Interesting stuff. I also use the 75gr TAP for Self-Defense.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 2:08:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 4:12:09 AM EDT by mr_wilson]

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?



B&T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #5:

"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."


It is there as large as life. Open your eyes son.




Thanks for the assist ALPHA, must be one of them Goals 2000 educated whipper-snappers taught reading is "optional"...........

Mike

E.T.A - fwiw, the 75grn. match boat-tailed-hollow-point or OTM bullet, (whichever you prefer) is ONE bullet made by Hornady and not the same at all as the other 75grn. VLD polymer tipped Hornady bullet.

The TAP ammunition uses the 75grn. match BTHP bullet and is "sold" to civies in 223 labeled boxes, but other's here on site have atleast once I'm sure of, displayed a picture of a box which are also labeled 75grn. TAP ammo with "5.56mm" labeling, (it has also been claimed that the 5.56 labeled ammo is a bit "hotter", I do not know myself as I have only shot the 223 labeled variety and my own reloads using the bullet).

Reguardless of what the ammunition has stamped on the box, (223 or 5.56) the "bullet" is one in the same as shown in the BT report.

nuff said

Although, using search and "TAP" gets ya plenty info and this provided ya can see and read:

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 3:50:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 3:58:03 AM EDT by ogcujo]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
again (The link you provided )They don't say anything about the 75 TAP. Can you answer the question?



B&T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #5:

"Multiple Round, High Velocity 5.56mm 75 grain Hornady BTHP vs 77grain Nosler BTHP performance in bare gel."


It is there as large as life. Open your eyes son.




Thanks for the assist ALPHA, must be one of them Goals 2000 educated whipper-snappers taught reading is "optional"...........

Mike

E.T.A - fwiw, the 75grn. match boat-tailed-hollow-point or OTM bullet, (whichever you prefer) is ONE bullet made by Hornady and not the same at all as the other 75grn. VLD polymer tipped Hornady bullet.

The TAP ammunition uses on the 75grn. match BTHP bullet and is "sold" to civies in 223 labeled boxes, but other's here on site have atleast once I'm sure of, displayed a picture of a box which are also labeled 75grn. TAP ammo with "5.56mm" labeling, (it has also been claimed that the 5.56 labeled ammo is a bit "hotter", I do not know myself as I have only shot the 223 labeled variety and my own reloads using the bullet).

Reguardless of what the ammunition has stamped on the box, (223 or 5.56) the "bullet" is one in the same as shown in the BT report.

nuff said

Although, using search and "TAP" gets ya plenty info and this provided ya can see and read:

i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/beware1gun/DSC01358.jpg




Goals 2000 educated? lol funny, did it take you all week to make that one up, or were you saving it for the right moment?

I can read, and what I read never mentioned the TAP Ammo. Looking at the pic you provided, it clearly says BTHP, and no one has shown me proof of that till now. Thank you. I never said it was not what they claimed, I said the links never mentioned the TAP (I've said that a few times already, let me know when it sinks in). Before this thread it wasn't clear if the bullet fragmented or mushroomed. I'll still call them in a bit and ask just to be certain. I stand corrected about the .223 - 5.56mm.
Francisco

PS. Thanks again Mike, now you can go pat your self on the shoulder. X2
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:26:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 4:27:09 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
No pat on the back necessary for me, I'm a reloader and as such I buy "components" and tend to know one bullet from another as well as pay close attention to the specific "bullet" used in most 223/5.56 factory fodder.

A bit more research into the ammo faq and tap related threads and you'll get it fingered out.

Mike

ps - sorry if I hurt your feelings, but as a older guy with young boys (19 yr old twins) I am painfully familar with the lack of education and instituted "dumbing down of America" shoveled in our local schools and am constantly attempting to influence my two knuckleheads to use their noggins for some beside a hat-rack and things like spelling counts, not with much success; I might add, (as nobody can TELL a 18 or 19 year old anything 'cus they already know it all)

Takes us until about 40 or 50 to realize that just ain't so................
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:31:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
No pat on the back necessary for me, I'm a reloader and as such I buy "components" and tend to know one bullet from another as well as pay close attention to the specific "bullet" used in most 223/5.56 factory fodder.

A bit more research into the ammo faq and tap related threads and you'll get it fingered out.

Mike

ps - sorry if I hurt your feelings, but as a older guy with young boys (19 yr old twins) I am painfully familar with the lack of education and instituted "dumbing down of America" shoveled in our local schools and am constantly attempting to influence my two knuckleheads to use their noggins for some beside a hat-rack and things like spelling counts, not with much success; I might add, (as nobody can TELL a 18 or 19 year old anything 'cus they already know it all)

Takes us until about 40 or 50 to realize that just ain't so................



No hurt feelings Mike, I was just playing around. TRUST ME I was sincere when I thanked you, and again I want to say thanks for helping me out.

Francisco
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 5:16:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 5:40:26 AM EDT by ogcujo]
I just called Hornady and spoke to Doug. He said yes it is a BTHP, "BUT" its not meant/made/designed to fragment. It mushrooms and "if" it does frag only a small percentage of the bullet will do so, up to 75% of the bullet will still be intact but again it was made to mushroom, not fragment. Some hollow points chambered in .40 cal and other handgun loads do the same thing, they are made to mushroom but occasionally they do come apart. I never said if it mushroomed or Fragged I didn't know but now we all do.
ogcujo

LOL
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 5:39:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ogcujo:
I just called Hornady and spoke to Doug. He said yes it is a BTHP, "BUT" its not meant/made/designed to fragment. It mushrooms and "if" it does frag only a small percentage of the bullet will do so, up to 75% of the bullet will still be intact but again it was made to mushroom, not fragment. Some hollow points chambered in .40 cal and other handgun loads do the same thing, they are made to mushroom but occasionally they do come apart.




One other thing which has a bearing on this subject which you may or may not be aware of.

The fragmentation you see in the B&T thread above is a result of the round (75grn. MBTHP) striking the ballistic gelatin at a distance just past 15 feet (normal distance to the chronograph) which is something that man at Hornady did not take into account when you asked him I'd suspect.

While true they may not have designed the bullet NOT to frag, they also are more interested in the bullet performance further downrange, which may be past the point where velocity is slower and fragmentation is minimal, (hope that made sense).

Tacked to the top Ammunition forum there's another "link" to the 75 & 77 bullets which shows chrony results for this round that IIRC contains actual distances from 20" and 16" barreled rifles for the fragmentation range, check it out, infact I suggest reading everything and anything "TACKED" to the top of any forum around here as there is excellent info all over this place.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 5:42:33 AM EDT
Thanks again,
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:06:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 8:08:26 AM EDT by DevL]
It frags and does not mushroom. If they said it was designed to frag it would not be land warfare legal. Howevre it doe not mushroom AT ALL it only frags. Hornady Match, TAP, BlackHills 75 grain all use the same bullet. There is no polymer tipped 75 TAP. There is more thn 25% fragmentation. The guy at Hornady does not know what he is talking about. There are many studies you can access that prove this.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:16:20 AM EDT
What was Hornady supposed to say to some caller on the phone out of nowhere...? As DevL said, a fragging bullet is a war liability... so it is DESIGNED to mushroom, it just does so MISERABLY (oops! ) and fragments instead... End result, a quick dispatch of the enemy.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:06:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
It frags and does not mushroom. If they said it was designed to frag it would not be land warfare legal. Howevre it doe not mushroom AT ALL it only frags. Hornady Match, TAP, BlackHills 75 grain all use the same bullet. There is no polymer tipped 75 TAP. There is more thn 25% fragmentation. The guy at Hornady does not know what he is talking about. There are many studies you can access that prove this.



you are 100% correct in saying that the guy at Hornady doesn't have a clue about what he is talking about.

I have the TAP LE/Red Box catalog in front of me and it gives all the specs of all the TAP rounds and the 75gr out of a 1/9 16" Bushy AR and tested in Ballistic Gel

Retained weight 20.8 grains.
% of frag 72%

The Hornady guy says that it will remain about 75% intact, if he would just look in his own catalog he would see it's just the oppisite and it frags about 75%
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:00:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:
What was Hornady supposed to say to some caller on the phone out of nowhere...? As DevL said, a fragging bullet is a war liability... so it is DESIGNED to mushroom, it just does so MISERABLY (oops! ) and fragments instead... End result, a quick dispatch of the enemy.

Rmpl



If it was designed to mushrrom to would also not be land warfare legal FWIW.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:46:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:
What was Hornady supposed to say to some caller on the phone out of nowhere...? As DevL said, a fragging bullet is a war liability... so it is DESIGNED to mushroom, it just does so MISERABLY (oops! ) and fragments instead... End result, a quick dispatch of the enemy.

Rmpl



If it was designed to mushrrom to would also not be land warfare legal FWIW.



If I'm not mistaken, the USA never signed to not use HP. I cant remember which convention it was. It's not the Gueneva I know that.

We just follow it for whatever reason.....
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 4:07:54 AM EDT
Here are the Hornady results:

www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I suspect the TAP 75 gr and Match 75 gr are identical in terms of the projectile. The specs are the same. It is not your typical JHP. The opening at the tip is tiny.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:41:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thezman:
At velocities above 2400 fps it SHOULD frag in gel.

Here's the FRAG CHART for various projectiles.



So basically at any CQB range all the ammo is going to frag right? Even out of a 10.5" barrel?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 12:17:42 PM EDT
You may wish to check the thread on Bushmaster pistols. It has a link on velocity vs barrel length and info on fragmentation:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=267668
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 4:02:53 PM EDT
That guy at Hornady was full of crap.

Can he put that in writing for us because wisconsin doesn't allow "non expanding" bullets for hunting and then we can show the DNR that it does because the hornady guy said so.

It just goes to show, you have to be careful about who you talk to.

Ask him if he could show you a picture of a recovered mushroomed 75 grain bthp TAP bullet.

Also, you missed it but mr. wilson showed you a picture of 5.56 TAP, and you had stated that it was .223. Which, you're both right but us lowly civilians don't know how to buy the 5.56 tap. How did you get that mr.wilson?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:57:30 PM EDT
to get the 5.56 tap you must be or know a LEO and buy it directly from Hornady.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:50:51 AM EDT
As stated elsewhere here but I just want to put it all in one post so the OP is aware...

There is another topic not to far below this one that is all about the differences between the Hornady 75gr TAP and Match. They are not identical. The bullet is identical but they have different powder amounts. How does that affect terminal performance? I think the end findings in that thread stated that at close distances it did not matter much but that the Match was hotter than the TAP.

Also the 5.56 is NOT the same as the .223 either. The 5.56 is hotter as well. Again how does that affect terminal performance at close distances? Probably not too much but for the purposes of being accurate they are not the same and as such the terms should not be used interchangeably.

So I'm not sure but that would leave one to believe that from Hornady there is :
1. 75gr .223 Match
2. 75gr .223 TAP
3. 75gr 5.56 TAP
I don't think that there is a 75gr. 5.56 Match.

All of the above would have the same bullet (projectile) but are obviously different rounds and as such would all have different terminal performance. However, and I am making an assumption here, I think that the general consensus here is that all of the above will perform well at close ranges even out of short barrels.

If everything that I have said above is correct (and I don't know that it is) I would choose the 5.56 TAP first if I could get it (which I can't) then the .223 Match and then the .223 TAP. But I would feel comfortable with any of those. I have a 16" barrel for what it is worth.
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