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Posted: 1/2/2006 4:24:34 PM EDT
is it that easy?

I've got 500 rounds to send out & it's my first time shipping ammunition, I think it's that easy, but I figured I'd ask once here before I head over tomorrow morning.

Thanks,

H
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:31:17 PM EDT
You don't even need an ORM-D sticker... just use a black marker and write on it "ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition."

No hazmat... just plain old ground.

I have shipped much ammo just that way.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:38:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:
You don't even need an ORM-D sticker... just use a black marker and write on it "ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition."

No hazmat... just plain old ground.

I have shipped much ammo just that way.

Rmpl



I like that method much better, thank you!
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:54:44 PM EDT
DOT regulations require you put the sticker on it
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:55:29 PM EDT
DOT regulations require you put the sticker on it


ETA: UPS don't charge you for the sticker
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:02:01 PM EDT
when i shipped it, i took it to the hub. it had the required ORM-D markings, but not a sticker. They said i had to have a license. i asked what kind, and they said jsut a license. So i showed my C&R and they said "OK" and shipped it, no questions asked.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:59:50 PM EDT
ORM-D markings (stencil or clearly handwritten) are required, a "Sticker" is not. For my last shipment, the Hazmat guy at the FEDEX 1-800 number told me to just write it on the box. If you are shipping as haz class 1.4S you must have the orange diamond shaped label.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:08:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
when i shipped it, i took it to the hub. it had the required ORM-D markings, but not a sticker. They said i had to have a license. i asked what kind, and they said jsut a license. So i showed my C&R and they said "OK" and shipped it, no questions asked.




It's funny you say they mentioned license. Did you try showing them your driver license? This issue came up a short while ago when someone wanted to sell a bunch of ammo they had and I was not aware of needing certification/licensing to ship ammo. I always thought that you just needed to mark it ORM-D. When I checked into it, I found out that whether you are shipping one box of ammo to a friend or shipping ammo as a business, you are in fact required to have hazardous material training and certification to ship ORM-D ammo via Ground and Air. Needless to say, I don't think I am going to bother shipping ammo anymore.

You can find the info on FedEx at http://www.fedex.com/us/services/options/ under Dangerous Goods for Express/Air and Hazardous Materials for Ground. Here's the text for Ground from FedEx (I'm sure UPS is similar):

Before you can begin shipping hazardous materials via FedEx Ground, you first must be properly confirmed (see How to Qualify). Contact your FedEx account executive or call FedEx Customer Service at 1.800.GoFedEx (1.800.463.3339) for more information.

If you click on the How to Qualify link, you will find that FedEx does offer training/certification (the cost is a mere $150 for Ground and $650 for Express/Air).

Becoming a Qualified Hazardous-Materials Shipper

In order to ship hazardous materials via FedEx Ground, you first must complete a certification process. Start by contacting your FedEx account executive, who can assist you through this process. Or call FedEx Customer Service at 1.800.GoFedEx (1.800.463.3339).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qualification process:

Complete a hazardous materials qualification form (OP-910).
Provide information on the hazardous materials you’ll be tendering to us. You can complete a sample hazardous materials certification form (OP-950) or prepare a spreadsheet listing the hazardous materials you ship.
Provide proof that you have been trained in shipping hazardous materials in accordance with federal requirements (49CFR 172.704). Your options for providing proof are:
A certificate from a training company stating that you have completed its program.
A letter on company letterhead indicating who is responsible for hazardous-materials training at your company and confirming that your employees have received the required training.
Completing our Ship Safe. Ship Smart online hazardous-materials training program.
If you will be shipping liquid hazardous materials, we need proof that your packaging has passed International Safe Transit Association (ISTA) Procedure 1A. If you don’t have this proof, you can submit your packaging (free of charge) to FedEx Packaging Design and Development for testing.

Your FedEx account executive will forward this information to the FedEx Ground safety department for review and notify you once you’ve been approved to begin shipping.


Here's the FedEx brochure entitled A Hazardous Materials Training Seminar.


Please do not take my above comments in the wrong way. Almost anyone can probably walk into FedEx/UPS with a package full of ammo properly marked ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition and ship it without incident. Heck, they could probably walk in without it properly marked and still ship it. I am just putting it out there as it seems some FedEx/UPS personnel may be more versed on the subject and declining shipments for some people. This would explain why for those that are interested in knowing.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:46:16 AM EDT
I've tried shipping ammunition from my local UPS hub, but they won't allow it (probably for the reason above).

This could put a damper on the plans of people who travel to classes and mathes and have to ship their ammo because it's too much to check in luggage on the plane.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 10:06:44 AM EDT
stupid question is "UPS hub" the same as "UPS CUSTOMER CENTER" per ups.com's web page?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 10:51:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
stupid question is "UPS hub" the same as "UPS CUSTOMER CENTER" per ups.com's web page?



Yes, one and the same... Most HUBS have a customer counter...

As for FedEx Hasmat training... I don't know. All I know I have shipped quite a bit of ammo via my local UPS hub with just black-marker "ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition" via GROUND. I have never been asked ID or license... never.

To save a possible hassle from UPS personnel IGNORANCE, I do recommend that you weigh and pay via the UPS web site and print your own label (it is free to set up an account). Then all you do is walk up to the counter, tell them it is labeled and paid for. They usually just take it, put it on their loading belt and I WALK AWAY. Don't volunteer a chatty talk about the ammo you are shipping...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 10:51:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
stupid question is "UPS hub" the same as "UPS CUSTOMER CENTER" per ups.com's web page?



yes.

I'll be leaving shortly to go give this a shot, I'll report back with my dealings. Hopefully the UPS Gestapo will leave me alone and let me ship my ammo without incident.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 10:56:36 AM EDT
so what's the chances of me shipping ammo at my local Office Depot who charges the same UPS rates as a UPS hub? 0? My hub way the heck out of my way to make it viable to ship ammo. I have some old boxes of 30-06, collectible type stuff I want to sell
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:14:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
so what's the chances of me shipping ammo at my local Office Depot who charges the same UPS rates as a UPS hub? 0? My hub way the heck out of my way to make it viable to ship ammo. I have some old boxes of 30-06, collectible type stuff I want to sell



try it and report back
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 1:52:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:00:51 PM EDT
Went to the UPS facility, walked up to the counter, asked how big I should write "ORM-D" on the package....paid for it.

Done!

Easy as pie!
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:40:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:
Done!

Easy as pie!



Yep! ...for now.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:47:26 PM EDT
I do not mean any disrespect, but when I checked into this further to satisfy my own curiosity, it was explained to me that ORM-D/Hazardous Materials is not something that is determined by FedEx or UPS, but rather by the DOT. ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition shipments are considered a Hazardous Material, but they can be tendered for either Ground or Air as long as they meet the appropriate packaging/labeling requirements (they are not restricted to just ground according to FedEx and UPS).

When I spoke to both FedEx and UPS, they kind of shyed away from in-depth discussion of the issue and both said they offered training and explained the way the rules were supposed to be followed (according to DOT). UPS emphatically stated that they do not accept any HazMat or ORM-D shipments unless they are generated by a UPS account that has the proper HazMat shipping authorization. In other words, they do not accept them at the customer counter. We all know that isn't the case.

So, as I said before, it doesn't really mean much to me one way or the other. I am just putting the info out there for others FWIW.


Here's some light reading from UPS:

49 CFR and UPS

CFR or UPS? Both!
This online guide for our hazardous materials customers will help you comply with the limitations and other requirements (variations) for our service offerings. However, all hazardous materials must be prepared in accordance with the appropriate federal Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR). These regulations can be found in Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (49 CFR).* This guide is not intended to replace the federal regulations but rather is to be used in conjunction with them.** The HMR changes periodically, and it is your responsibility to comply with the most current standards.

As a UPS hazardous materials contract customer, you must comply not only with 49 CFR but also with UPS carrier variations for domestic air and ground hazardous materials shipments. For help meeting package preparation and documentation requirements, and UPS variations, we have trained hazardous materials specialists available by phone. Simply call our Hazardous Materials Support Center at 1-800-554-9964 between 8:00 a.m. Monday and 6:00 a.m. Saturday, Eastern Time.

* The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) enacts and enforces all hazardous materials transportation law in the United States. It has jurisdiction over all interstate, intrastate, and foreign transportation of hazardous materials on aircraft, railcars, vessels, and highway carriers and shippers in the United States. 49 CFR may be purchased from the Government Printing Office, local Government bookstores, or hazardous materials supply dealers.

** Compliance with DOT regulations is a requirement for any person who offers a hazardous materials shipment. Non-compliance with the federal HMR could result in civil or even criminal penalties by the appropriate federal agencies. For more information about the DOT´s Hazardous Materials Regulations, visit http://hazmat.dot.gov.



Training

49 CFR 172.700-704
Federal regulations require hazardous materials training for every "Hazardous Materials Employee." The DOT requires every "Hazardous Materials Employer" to provide all the necessary information to hazardous materials employees so they can perform their individual job functions in a safe and knowledgeable manner.

The required areas of training include general awareness/familiarization training, function-specific training, security, and safety training. DOT regulations require that hazardous materials employers train, test, and maintain records for all hazardous materials employees. Training certification must be documented at least once every three years. New employees must be directly supervised by a trained hazardous materials employee until this training has been completed, which must occur within 90 days of employment, within 90 days of change of responsibilities, or within 90 days of a change in the hazardous materials regulations.

The hazardous materials employer is responsible for full compliance with part 172, subpart H of 49 CFR. Failure to train hazardous materials employees appropriately can expose a company to severe civil penalties. Training can be provided by the hazardous materials employer or by other public and private sources. The employer must certify compliance with hazardous materials training requirements.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:34:24 PM EDT
I will admit while standing in line today I looked up and read the 'oh do not even think about shipping the following' poster on the wall....included was 'ammunition.'

Oh well, maybe it depends on the person behind the counter and their support of the Bill of Rights.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:01:04 PM EDT
I'm in a Holiday Inn Express right now, with their free high-speed connection. It's fairly easy to read and understand the basics of the regs, but of course the details can cause a lot of confusion. They are also meant to be seen on paper, not with linked pages on a small screen. I'm just reading what's easy to find, there could well be another reg that says left-handed people can't ship ammo on even-numbered days

About the license, UPS would ask that if you were shipping homemade cookies "A government-issued photo ID is required in order to ship or pick up a package at a UPS Customer Center. " lower left corner

Basically UPS follows the lead of DOT. Dig around on their site and you find a large PDF which lists many fun things that one might wish to ship. Most are nasty-sounding chemicals (my favorite is hexamethylchickendeath), but if you scroll to page 30 and 31 there are different types of Cartridge listed. Blank, inert projectile, bursting, etc. They differ by hazard code, which isn't worth looking up - some they won't accept and some they will. The ones they will take have a note to see 173.320

www.ups.com/media/en/chemical_table_pdf_2_10012005.pdf

So off to the DOT website, you can look at clarifcations listed by what part of the CFR they address and links to the text itself. Enter 173.320, read a bit, see the part where 173.56 has a bunch of "do not apply". Lets look there, specifically 173.56(h)


(h) The requirements of this section do not apply to cartridges, small arms which are:


(1) Not a forbidden explosive under § 173.54 of this subchapter;


(2) Ammunition for rifle, pistol, or shotgun;


(3) Ammunition with inert projectile or blank ammunition; and


(4) Ammunition not exceeding 50 caliber for rifle or pistol cartridges or 8 gauge for shotgun shells. Cartridges, small arms meeting the criteria of this paragraph (h) may be assigned a classification code of 1.4S by the manufacturer.



www.myregs.com/dotrspa/

So DOT doesn't get bent out of shape about "ordinary" ammo, and UPS follows. Out of the ordinary UPS doesn't want to deal with, which is reasonable. The ORM-D stuff is in the labeling section, and I doubt anyone is reading this anyway.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:01:16 AM EDT
Good stuff XJ, thanks for the findings!

Nothing like a Holiday Inn Express! Been there a few times myself.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:15:24 AM EDT
Well I had a very different experience at the Atlanta GA UPS hub. They flat out refused to ship my ammo. When I pointed out the ammo was securely packaged and the package marked ORM-D, the clerk got the manager out and he told me that they ONLY accept ammo from commercial customers. Apparently us ordinary folks can't be trusted to properly package hazardous material. He was a real A**HOLE about the whole thing.

I went to FedEx and they accepted the package with no problem. So from then on when whenever a mail order company asks me how I want my merchandise shipped, I always say FedEx!

As an aside, I recently purchased some ammo from a fellow ARFCOMer who MAILED the ammo. It has gone missing and we have yet to resolve the issue. I checked up on it - USPS does not allow ammunition to be mailed and it is illegal with a penalty of a year in jail or a fine (18 USC 1716).
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