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Posted: 12/18/2005 5:42:00 PM EDT
Went to the range today to re-zero my Aimpoint and BUIS in my M4-gery using my SHTF ammo...

My DEFENSIVE ammo in the M4 is TRUE M193 made by either IMI or WCC, and as most know, its availability has dried up a long time ago.

It was sooo odd! I felt like I was sending gold bullets down range... Needless to say, I did my zero and trajectory data for various yardages, as well as let a mag rip and only blew through 60 rounds.
Only used 20 of the WCC to verify IMI zero comparison.

Even my XM193 I'm getting stingy with!

Then loaded XM193PD and blasted away for the fun stuff...

The M855 is back in volume but it just ain't like the true M193.

I miss the good 'ol days...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:41:00 PM EDT
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???

BTW:
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:19:49 PM EDT
I only use it up to zero my rifle otherwise it sits in mags and ammo cans. I shoot WWB or wolf for TP
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:06:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 9:26:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zipper:
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???

BTW:
i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/cakebike/Federal.jpg




You should never count on being able have well aimed shots in a combat scenario, this is why COM is the standard training method.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:04:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 6:07:26 AM EDT by Rmplstlskn]

Originally Posted By zipper:
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???



Technically, YES. See Ammo Oracle. Both bring about a casualty if shot in head? Yes. (if Wolf doesn't JAM )

OBTW, now I know why there is no XM193 left...
Hope you have a good flash suppressor for all that "ball-o-flame" ammo...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:51:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 8:52:38 AM EDT by NonConformist]

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By zipper:
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???



Technically, YES. See Ammo Oracle. Both bring about a casualty if shot in head? Yes. (if Wolf doesn't JAM )

OBTW, now I know why there is no XM193 left...
Hope you have a good flash suppressor for all that "ball-o-flame" ammo...

Rmpl



Ok I'll bite, why is their no XM193 ammo left

Never Mind
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:57:47 AM EDT
Yes. I don't blast M193 either. I zero with it, then practice with reloads. w00t!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:15:35 AM EDT
M193 is a terrible thing to waste
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:20:06 AM EDT
I shoot Black Hills 55gr blue box, it's accurate, clean and runs 100% in my guns.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:40:04 AM EDT
Gentlemen. There is not much magic AT ALL in standard NATO M193. People have this perception that it's a diamond coated vampire slayer bullet of choice but it's just plain old hot loaded 55grain FMJ range fodder!!! You can manufacture FAR more accurate and superior ammo by yourself without much effort at all. Use the brass from your M193 and you won't be able to tell the difference other than it actually hits what you're aiming at.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 1:14:53 PM EDT by Rmplstlskn]

Originally Posted By CrimsonGhost:
You can manufacture FAR more accurate and superior ammo by yourself without much effort at all. Use the brass from your M193 and you won't be able to tell the difference other than it actually hits what you're aiming at.



That's fine and dandy for someone who wants to reload... I don't have the time.

Plus, to reload a thousand rounds is a lot different than using a simple press and dies to reload a few 30-30 hunting cartridges. You need a progressive loader ($$$) with all the goodies ($$), as well as the dies, sizers and trimmers ($$$), powder, primers and lube ($). Then if you are serious about QUALITY rounds, you need equipment to clean your used brass ($$) and the machinist tools ($$$$) to make sure everything is within specifications.

I get BORED just examining my XM193 or XM193PD for rejects and flaws before they go in a magazine, let alone taking precision measurements of each case...

Then you need to SET UP everything after reading, studying and reviewing books on reloading. Then there is the TESTING to find the right powder and grains for your uses.. It goes on and on...

I've seen the "estate sales" of some serious reloaders and the STUFF they have for that hobby is mind-boggling...

Your statement,

...you won't be able to tell the difference other than it actually hits what you're aiming at.

also shows your bias, wanting us to believe that your handload is a magic mix that no other factory could replicate. I offer BLACK HILLS as proof of that foolishness. I also would bet that your handloads are neither SEALED neck and primer, or have crimped neck and primers, which matters a great deal to me, and others on this board.

Nothing against reloading... I wish I had the time and money to learn, I think I would enjoy it, but at this time in life I barely get time to go to the range to shoot my factory ammo...

Rmpl

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:51:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zipper:
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???

BTW:
i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/cakebike/Federal.jpg



Hate to admit it...but he's right. Your POI is so minimally different with all of the 55 Gn. FMJBT loads that it's undiscernable at PRACTICLE ranges for that weight (0 to 150 yards) out of a 16" or shorter barrel. After that, the round is useless! Maybe under 125 yards.

Tack
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:37:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:

Originally Posted By zipper:
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???

BTW:
i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/cakebike/Federal.jpg



Hate to admit it...but he's right. Your POI is so minimally different with all of the 55 Gn. FMJBT loads that it's undiscernable at PRACTICLE ranges for that weight (0 to 150 yards) out of a 16" or shorter barrel. After that, the round is useless! Maybe under 125 yards.

Tack



Wrong. 1st The only real way to train and fight is to practice consistant hits aiming COM. Up close it is more important to have the most effective round to stop the threat with any shot.
try training privates to aim and hit their targets at exact points on their bodies, it is a recipe for failure.

2nd Further away hits are by no means useless, even a straight through shot at 200 or 300+ yrds reduces the ability of said target to be affective if he gets closer, if he gets closer at all.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:41:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tack:

Originally Posted By zipper:
I am not understanding this please HELP

Is an insurgent going to tell the difference between say WOLF or IMI when you shoot him in the head???

BTW:
i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/cakebike/Federal.jpg



Hate to admit it...but he's right. Your POI is so minimally different with all of the 55 Gn. FMJBT loads that it's undiscernable at PRACTICLE ranges for that weight (0 to 150 yards) out of a 16" or shorter barrel. After that, the round is useless! Maybe under 125 yards.

Tack



Useless, huh. If it doesn't fragment, it will yaw. Guys are getting kills with M855 out to further ranges than the fragment threshold. And same goes for MK262. Although the ballistic testing is wonderful and shows us and teaches us alot, it can be dangerous too because you have just placed a limit on your killing capability that doesn't have to be there. Make no mistake,a 5.56 in almost any variety will kill out to longer distances than 150 yards.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:31:31 PM EDT
...as always, considering good shot placement.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:40:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By CrimsonGhost:
You can manufacture FAR more accurate and superior ammo by yourself without much effort at all. Use the brass from your M193 and you won't be able to tell the difference other than it actually hits what you're aiming at.



That's fine and dandy for someone who wants to reload... I don't have the time.

Plus, to reload a thousand rounds is a lot different than using a simple press and dies to reload a few 30-30 hunting cartridges. You need a progressive loader ($$$) with all the goodies ($$), as well as the dies, sizers and trimmers ($$$), powder, primers and lube ($). Then if you are serious about QUALITY rounds, you need equipment to clean your used brass ($$) and the machinist tools ($$$$) to make sure everything is within specifications.

I get BORED just examining my XM193 or XM193PD for rejects and flaws before they go in a magazine, let alone taking precision measurements of each case...

Then you need to SET UP everything after reading, studying and reviewing books on reloading. Then there is the TESTING to find the right powder and grains for your uses.. It goes on and on...

I've seen the "estate sales" of some serious reloaders and the STUFF they have for that hobby is mind-boggling...

Your statement,

...you won't be able to tell the difference other than it actually hits what you're aiming at.

also shows your bias, wanting us to believe that your handload is a magic mix that no other factory could replicate. I offer BLACK HILLS as proof of that foolishness. I also would bet that your handloads are neither SEALED neck and primer, or have crimped neck and primers, which matters a great deal to me, and others on this board.

Nothing against reloading... I wish I had the time and money to learn, I think I would enjoy it, but at this time in life I barely get time to go to the range to shoot my factory ammo...

Rmpl




I have no "bias" AGAINST M193 at all. What I'm saying is that it's overhyped to say that it's anything better than dirt clod busting ammo out of about any gun. Sealed necks and primers don't do anything for ammo other than waterproof it against long-term storage. For ammo you shoot, it only hinders performance. It doesn't need to be treated as gold but rather shot up for fun.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:13:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CrimsonGhost:
I have no "bias" AGAINST M193 at all. What I'm saying is that it's overhyped to say that it's anything better than dirt clod busting ammo out of about any gun. Sealed necks and primers don't do anything for ammo other than waterproof it against long-term storage. For ammo you shoot, it only hinders performance. It doesn't need to be treated as gold but rather shot up for fun.



You missed the point of the thread...

I'd shoot it for fun all day long if I could GET MORE! True M193 is almost impossible to find. Since there is no more to be found and it is my rainy day ammo, it is like gold to me and I keep it stashed away for that rainy day, Yahweh forbid. So for storage, the sealed and crimped ammo IS of use, trumping the MARGINAL accuracy loss.

For fun, I use XM193, XM193PD and .223 retail when I find a good buy.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:16:46 AM EDT

I also would bet that your handloads are neither SEALED neck and primer, or have crimped neck and primers, which matters a great deal to me, and others on this board.


Sealing and crimping the primer and neck are trivially easy things to do...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:21:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChiefPilot:

I also would bet that your handloads are neither SEALED neck and primer, or have crimped neck and primers, which matters a great deal to me, and others on this board.


Sealing and crimping the primer and neck are trivially easy things to do...



Crimping the neck, yes, but from what I have read here the crimped primers and SEALANT is not so trivially easy. You have to take each bullet and brush sealant on the sides? Boring... quick.

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:26:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By ChiefPilot:

I also would bet that your handloads are neither SEALED neck and primer, or have crimped neck and primers, which matters a great deal to me, and others on this board.


Sealing and crimping the primer and neck are trivially easy things to do...



Crimping the neck, yes, but from what I have read here the crimped primers and SEALANT is not so trivially easy. You have to take each bullet and brush sealant on the sides? Boring... quick.

Rmpl



Well, if you've never done it but have all the answers, then I bow to your infinite knowledge and experience...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:33:24 AM EDT
No, my Black Hills is the good stuff
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:45:51 AM EDT
If you want to kill someone at short AND long range, .308 or .30-06 is your answer.

Remember .223 was designed for recruits with NO shooting experience due to its light recoil and light weight compared to 'traditional' .30cal rounds. Its not the best killer out there... just one that fit thier need.

Even at the outset of WWII (late 30's) the Army flirtered with a .22 cal round, and dropped it because of it limited long range killing ability. This was a known factor back in the 30's! Plus they wanted to standardize on a single cartridge, and .30cal was what they chose.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:47:51 AM EDT
Yeah, that custom handload ammo really sucks, never wins any 1000 yard compititions and is WAY to expensive compared to off the shelf stuff.

Enjoy NOT shooting your ammo
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:33:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pfarber:
If you want to kill someone at short AND long range, .308 or .30-06 is your answer.

Remember .223 was designed for recruits with NO shooting experience due to its light recoil and light weight compared to 'traditional' .30cal rounds. Its not the best killer out there... just one that fit thier need.

Even at the outset of WWII (late 30's) the Army flirtered with a .22 cal round, and dropped it because of it limited long range killing ability. This was a known factor back in the 30's! Plus they wanted to standardize on a single cartridge, and .30cal was what they chose.




There's always one.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:38:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:38:49 AM EDT by Colt_SBR]
I don't have any of the perfect ammo. I have XM193, Q3131, and Q3131A. That will have to be my SHTF ammo if it ever happens. I am thinking of getting some XM855 to try.

I'm a married, working guy and have limited $$$$$$$$$$$ to spend. If I could find and afford the better stuff I would get it.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:20:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:24:46 AM EDT by macros73]
Nevermind, I know better than to throw bread under bridges.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:55:57 AM EDT
Geez, another thread I feel dumber for having read. I don't mean the topic, rather a few of the replies. Yeah, there's no difference between M193's performance and Wolf. And we should always be able to get a headshot in a gun battle in which people with BRAINS will be attempting to move and take cover.

Real life gun battles and shooting at paper targets isn't the same folks.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:42:45 AM EDT
M193s value lies in it's velocity AND it's cannelure.

The two combine to make a bullet that will fragment (like a small grenade) within a given range.
Wolf won't, and I'm betting you'd have to go through extensive testing to create your own round that would do the same.

And, (this usually gets an argument from reloaders) it's generally not recommended to use personal reloads for self defense.
Two reasons:
1. No matter how good you are, or how long you've been reloading, you won't have the same type of quality controls that Remington or Federal have. You've got much higher chance of the round going "bang" if it's factory.
2. If you ever go into court for a shooting, it will look much better on you if you've used factory ammo.

To reply to the original poster:
Yes, I'm hording my M193.
I need to sight in a new sight and scope, and I'll use some for that, but the rest is sealed in double freezer bags, in mil. ammo cans.

Sucks don't it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:30:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 10:33:33 AM EDT by DevL]
M193 has a significant % that will not fragment inside its velocity fragmantation range. To me its just balster grade ammo that is reliable suitable for practice at close range, class use under 50 yards etc. Its certainly not gold. Its not very accurate, its not very reliable from a terminal effects standpoint (if hollow points had as high a failure rate to expand as M193 did to fragment noon would reccomend it) but its fairly inexpensive and can be stored since you usually buy it in bulk.

Now the 75 grain 5.56 TAP... that on the other hand I wont burn off in a full auto etc. as it IS expensive and harder to get when I want it and it DOES have better accuracy and termainl effects/reliability than M193.

I say burn through the blaster ammo and buy more of whatever blaster ammo you want to shoot next.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:33:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mini14jac:
M193s value lies in it's velocity AND it's cannelure.

The two combine to make a bullet that will fragment (like a small grenade) within a given range.
Wolf won't, and I'm betting you'd have to go through extensive testing to create your own round that would do the same.

And, (this usually gets an argument from reloaders) it's generally not recommended to use personal reloads for self defense.
Two reasons:
1. No matter how good you are, or how long you've been reloading, you won't have the same type of quality controls that Remington or Federal have. You've got much higher chance of the round going "bang" if it's factory.
2. If you ever go into court for a shooting, it will look much better on you if you've used factory ammo.

To reply to the original poster:
Yes, I'm hording my M193.
I need to sight in a new sight and scope, and I'll use some for that, but the rest is sealed in double freezer bags, in mil. ammo cans.

Sucks don't it.



Just so everyone knows this entire post is full of innacuracys. Cannelures have nothing to do with terminal effects. No factory ammo can hold a candle to the consistancy of hand loaded ammo. Noone has ever been persecuted for the ammo they used in a self defens situation because it was handloaded. Etc, etc.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:36:02 AM EDT
Ok I'm a noob so tell me what the difference is in the ORIGINAL M193 and Federal XM193 ... cause there is NO shortage of XM193 where I am ... local shop has 20 cases of lot106 I've been buying right along thinking it was great stuff ... So enlighten me please
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:36:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mini14jac:

The two combine to make a bullet that will fragment (like a small grenade) within a given range.




Yeah, but the pins keep hanging up on the mag lips.

What are you saving the rounds for. Can't you shoot what you have and just buy more?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:17:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Evilrp:
Ok I'm a noob so tell me what the difference is in the ORIGINAL M193 and Federal XM193 ... cause there is NO shortage of XM193 where I am ... local shop has 20 cases of lot106 I've been buying right along thinking it was great stuff ... So enlighten me please



The difference with XM193 and real M193 is:
1. Factory FIRSTS, not seconds/rejects like XM193 and XM193PD (from what I have read)
2. Real military POWDER with flash retardant. XM ammo is ball-o-flame ammo needing a good flash suppressor. XM is great for fast photo shots of flame though...
3. Fully sealed neck and primer. Some XM lots have one or the other missing, most have both though. Which lots do and don't... who knows.

That's about all I can think of...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:20:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hayseed_40:

What are you saving the rounds for. Can't you shoot what you have and just buy more?



No, that's the point of the thread. M193 is not sold commercially anymore. The only M193 you will find is private sale or stolen from the military... and I keep my eye open for them. My last find was true IMI M193...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:06:17 PM EDT
If you could get current IMI what would you be willing to give for it. More than the Federal??
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:23:44 PM EDT
OK...just to add some flames to the fire here. I was at Bass Pro and just for giggles bought a plain old box of Q3131 (not A mind you) and looked it over. It's NATO headstamped WCC 04 brass with all the other features of M193. Wally world had the same thing on their shelves.

I'd be willing to bet my left nut this is EXACTLY M193 spec stuff down to the sub-par accuracy. This stuff was hardly scarce or hard to find.

I don't think there are any small towns left that don't have a Wally world at least which has shelf fulls of this stuff. I'm missing out on the alarm.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:52:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrimsonGhost:
OK...just to add some flames to the fire here. I was at Bass Pro and just for giggles bought a plain old box of Q3131 (not A mind you) and looked it over. It's NATO headstamped WCC 04 brass with all the other features of M193. Wally world had the same thing on their shelves.

I'd be willing to bet my left nut this is EXACTLY M193 spec stuff down to the sub-par accuracy. This stuff was hardly scarce or hard to find.

I don't think there are any small towns left that don't have a Wally world at least which has shelf fulls of this stuff. I'm missing out on the alarm.




You have good eyes, I can't tell about velocity, bullet construction, and neck sealant just by looking at a few rounds in the store. How do you do it?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:33:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:39:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:01:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 8:04:24 PM EDT by Rmplstlskn]

Originally Posted By Troy:

Nope. The military does NOT specify flash-retardant powder, and both XM193 and Q3131 use the identical powder that is delivered to the military in the M193 ammo made by Federal (at Lake City) and Winchester/Olin, respectively. XM193 and Q3131 ammo is just M193 ammo that didn't quite meet all of the required military specs, which means it wasn't accepted by the military during the QC stage, and could therefore be sold on the civilian market.

-Troy



I don't know about WCC M193 but I do know that the IMI M193 has a lot less flash from a non-FS barrel than the XM193 from night firing experience. The XM was blinding, literally... but the IMI was more like a dull flash.

When the vortex was added back on the IMI virtually disappeared (I don't know about front of muzzle view... ) and the XM had a dull glow, for lack of better words.

Your comments have now added my remaining WCC (not too much left) to the shoot list and the IMI M193 is my main ammo of choice and kept in storage...

YMMV

Rmpl
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:25:41 PM EDT
I just keep telling myself that my XM193 doesn't even really exist (even though I have 1080rds) Two full 30rd mags and one 20rd mag full for keeping handy... the other two half-case boxes are unopened and in my closet. WWB has been my primary ammo recently.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:30:31 PM EDT
I have, let's say a lot, of M193 I shoot the Fed .223 most of the time and a little M855 now and then. I say save the "M" stuff. and shoot the rest......
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:37:51 PM EDT
In case of SHTF, care to send the very best and get black hills 68 to 77 grain loads. If the 55 grain military loading was so great, it would have a much better reputation from Vietnam as a man stopper.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:05:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 9:10:30 PM EDT by Progunvoter]
you guys can keep your xm193 and Q3131, Q3131A. I'll take the Winchester value pak 40 white box. More accurate. yep,, more accurate - at least at 50 and 100 yards.

ETA - yall are a bunch of ammo whores anyway. You Keep that 193 stuff. Leave the REALLY GOOD shet for the rest of us wally world shoppers. Good clean shinny brass that is accruate is hell. Now that is a fact. yep - FACT.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:25:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Progunvoter:
you guys can keep your xm193 and Q3131, Q3131A. I'll take the Winchester value pak 40 white box. More accurate. yep,, more accurate - at least at 50 and 100 yards.

ETA - yall are a bunch of ammo whores anyway. You Keep that 193 stuff. Leave the REALLY GOOD shet for the rest of us wally world shoppers. Good clean shinny brass that is accruate is hell. Now that is a fact. yep - FACT.



Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:38:55 AM EDT
+1
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:20:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By pfarber:
Remember .223 was designed for recruits with NO shooting experience due to its light recoil and light weight compared to 'traditional' .30cal rounds.



There's a flag on the play.

Please read www.ammo-oracle.com before spouting anymore of these Vietnam-era myths.

-Troy



Troy, thanks for interjecting some truth into the discussion
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:22:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Progunvoter:
you guys can keep your xm193 and Q3131, Q3131A. I'll take the Winchester value pak 40 white box. More accurate. yep,, more accurate - at least at 50 and 100 yards.

ETA - yall are a bunch of ammo whores anyway. You Keep that 193 stuff. Leave the REALLY GOOD shet for the rest of us wally world shoppers. Good clean shinny brass that is accruate is hell. Now that is a fact. yep - FACT.



Yep, good point, that shiny brass so makes up for the loss in velocity over real 5.56 ammo. Yep, fragmentation is over-rated anyway. Yep, ammo whores are ghey. Yep...

EPOCH
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 1:31:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Quake_Guy:
In case of SHTF, care to send the very best and get black hills 68 to 77 grain loads. If the 55 grain military loading was so great, it would have a much better reputation from Vietnam as a man stopper.



It didn't have a bad reputation as a man stopper. At least not in my readings. But your suggestion for shooting the heavy stuff is a good one.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 1:32:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrimsonGhost:
OK...just to add some flames to the fire here. I was at Bass Pro and just for giggles bought a plain old box of Q3131 (not A mind you) and looked it over. It's NATO headstamped WCC 04 brass with all the other features of M193. Wally world had the same thing on their shelves.

I'd be willing to bet my left nut this is EXACTLY M193 spec stuff down to the sub-par accuracy. This stuff was hardly scarce or hard to find.

I don't think there are any small towns left that don't have a Wally world at least which has shelf fulls of this stuff. I'm missing out on the alarm.



Walmart doesn't stock Q3131or Q3131A. As you stated you got it at Bass pro.
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