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Posted: 12/12/2005 11:40:22 AM EDT
My local gun shop owner explained to me that all SS109 ammo is illegal in Illinois. The gun shop owner was visited by the ATF when he had placed an order for some SS109. Apparently the gun shop owner was instructed to ship the ammo back to his distributor. I live in dupage county illinois witch borders the more strict county that encompasses Chicago Illinois so i dont know if that had something to do with it.

Is ss109 considered AP and is it legal in Illinois?


Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:45:24 AM EDT
SS 109 is not clasified as AP byt the BATFE. Check state or local laws. If you don't have a state pre-emption law it could very well be illegal in a couple areas and not in others.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:47:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:45:26 PM EDT by thedoctors308]
Anything is possible in Illinois.
I suppose the "other county" is Crook County?
Move out of Ill.
Gun owners there are treated like Jews in Nazi Germany.

Fixed for our deutscher bruder.
Sorry if I mangled it.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:39:43 PM EDT
Look out, as soon as a gun manufacture chambers a hand gun in 5.56 the SS109 becomes illegal, and there are hand guns out there in 5.56. The law states: there can not be AP rounds for hand guns, therfore no more AP'S for rifles.

So we are back to the M193, we have a dealer in Texas going to a hearing tomorrow with the ATF. He was actually raided and all his AP rounds were taken.


Art - Silver State Armory
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:46:09 PM EDT
Oh, the 5.56 is actually a gray area with the ATF - put they are saying for now because it has a harden core stop selling.

We made a shipment to a DOE site, ATF inspected the shipment and varified the end user at the truck terminal.

Art - Silver State Armory
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:45:59 PM EDT
Isn't M885 specifically exempted from the definition of "AP?" And since M885 is (to my knowledge) the U.S. implementation of SS109, shouldn't SS109 thus be exempted too?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:51:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Gun owners there are treated like Jews in Germany.



You mean like normal citizens? Funny how some stereotypes won't die out.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:13:54 PM EDT
According to this letter, SS109 and M855 are exempt due to having a core that is only partially made from a hardened material.

www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/ap_ammo.txt

Hope this helps, as always YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:29:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:31:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 5:38:35 PM EDT by NAM]
Firearm Projectiles Prohibited by Illinois State Law as of August 17, 2001
Public Act 92-0423, which amends the Illinois Criminal Code of 1961 by changing Sections 24-2.1, 24-2.2,
24.3.2, lists the following firearm projectiles as prohibited and provides the following definitions.
Armor Piercing Bullet Dragon's Breath Shotgun Shell Bolo Shell Flechette Shell
Armor Piercing Bullet: Any handgun bullet or handgun ammunition with projectiles or projectile cores
constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium, or fully jacketed bullets larger than .22 caliber designed
and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25% of the total weight of the
projectile, and excluding those handgun projectiles whose cores are composed of soft materials such as lead or
lead alloys, zinc or zinc alloys, frangible projectiles designed primarily for sporting purposes, and any other
projectiles or projectile cores that the U. S. Secretary of the Treasury finds to be primarily intended to be used
for sporting purposes or industrial purposes or that otherwise does not constitute "armor piercing ammunition"
as that term is defined by federal law. The definition contained herein shall not be construed to include shotgun
shells.
Dragon's Breath Shotgun Shell: Any shotgun shell that contains exothermic pyrophoric mesh metal as the
projectile and is designed for the purpose of throwing or spewing a flame or fireball to simulate a flamethrower.
Bolo Shell: Any shell that can be fired in a firearm and expels as projectiles 2 or more metal balls connected
by solid metal wire.
Flechette Shell: Any shell that can be fired in a firearm and expels 2 or more pieces of fin-stabilized solid
metal wire or 2 or more solid dart-type projectiles.
In addition to the above prohibited projectiles, Section 24.1. (a) (3) and (a) (7) (iii) and Section 24.1.(a)
(11), unchanged by Public Act 92-0423, list the following as prohibited.
Section 24.1. (a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(3) Carries on or about his person or in any vehicle, a tear gas gun projector or bomb or any object
containing noxious liquid gas or substance, other than an object containing a non-lethal noxious
liquid gas or substance designed solely for personal defense carried by a person 18 years of age
or older.
(7) (iii) Any bomb, bomb-shell, grenade, bottle or other container containing an explosive
substance of over one-quarter ounce for like purposes, such as, but not limited to, black
powder bombs and Molotov cocktails or artillery projectiles;
Section 24.1. (a) (11) Sells, manufactures or purchases any explosive bullet. For purposes of this paragraph
(a) “explosive bullet” means the projectile portion of an ammunition cartridge which contains or carries an
explosive charge which will explode upon contact with the flesh of a human or an animal. “Cartridge”
means a tubular metal case having a projectile affixed at the front thereof and a cap or primer at the rear end
thereof, with the propellant contained in such tube between the projectile and the cap.
Provided by Illinois State Police, Firearms Services Bureau 01/02
Public Act 92-0423 Imposes the Following Sentences for Violating Sections 24-2.1, 24-2.2, and 24-3.2.
Section 24-2.1 (unlawful use of firearm projectiles) (d) “Sentence. A person convicted of unlawful use of
armor piercing bullets shall be guilty of a Class 3 felony.”
Section 24-2.2 (manufacture, sale or transfer of bullets or shells presented to be armor piercing bullets,
dragon breath shotgun shells, bolo shells, or flechette shells) (d) “Sentence. A violation of this Section is a
Class 4 felony.”
Section 24-3.2.(unlawful discharge of firearm projectiles) (c) “any person who possesses, concealed on or
about his or her person, an armor piercing bullet, dragon’s breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell
and a firearm suitable for the discharge thereof is guilty of a Class 2 felony.”
For a copy of Public Act 92-0423 go to: http://www.legis.state.il.us/publicacts/pubact92/acts/92-0423.html



"or fully jacketed bullets larger than .22 caliber designed
and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25% of the total weight of the
projectile"

M855 is fully jacketed. It is .22 caliber. and it is NOT intended for use in a handgun. IT can be use in a handgun, but it's primary intended use is for rifle.

I say ss109 = LEGAL.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:55:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keiler:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Gun owners there are treated like Jews in Germany during WWII.



You mean like normal citizens? Funny how some stereotypes won't die out.



I think that's what he meant to type.

And M855 is not AP, and not illegal. At least where I am from.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:08:55 PM EDT
From: ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (Revised - 9/05)

Section IV. (B.) General Information [~ page 14 of 16 of the .pdf file]

17. ARMOR PIERCING
AMMUNITION
For purposes of the prohibitions imposed
upon manufacture, importation,
and transfer of armor piercing ammunition
in 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(7)-(8) and 923(e), armor piercing ammunition includes
the following:

. . .

Exemptions: The following articles
are exempted from the definition of armor
piercing ammunition.
5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855
Ammunition, identified by a green coating
on the projectile tip.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:19:37 AM EDT
Thanks for all your input guys
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:04:03 AM EDT
I know it is for sale in southern IL. I doubt any FFL would sell if it wasn't legal. Maybe county or city, or maybe hysterical bunk!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:41:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By allclock:
I know it is for sale in southern IL. I doubt any FFL would sell if it wasn't legal. Maybe county or city, or maybe hysterical bunk!



I dont know about Illinois, but under Federal law it is currently legal. The legality of M855 is explained in the ammo oracle. M855 is not an armor piercing round. Armor Piercing must be able to penetrate 1/4" thick steel. M855 will not penetrate this, but it will penetrate 1/8" steel. Meaning it is capable of penetrating light armoured vehicles or barriers.

The flat out illegal 223 is the M955. This is the black tip ammo. But this is where it gets stupid. Black tip 308 ammo is also illegal, but black tip 30-06 ammo and black tip 50 ammo is legal. Apparently way back in the 1950s(?) surplus black tip 30-06 and 50 was released to the general public. Go figure.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:46:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keiler:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Gun owners there are treated like Jews in Germany.



You mean like normal citizens? Funny how some stereotypes won't die out.



fixed it.
I left out the N-word - my apologies
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:41:24 AM EDT
i just had some deliverd"855pd" a few months ago???

am i a criminal now?????
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:59:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 3:00:08 PM EDT by remedy]

Originally Posted By johnssa:
The law states: there can not be AP rounds for hand guns, therfore no more AP'S for rifles.



Interesting since 5.7x28mm SS192 & SS195LF both penetrate vests up to Level IIa even some older III.

44 magnum penetrates basically up to Level IV

Now, ballistic protective plates are another story, but really we have to ask what is the definition of "Armor"? Is it a protective vest? An armor plate? A type or depth of steel?

- rem
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:03:26 PM EDT
It was said above 1/4" steel was the requirement I believe. M855 only does 1/8".
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:39:38 AM EDT
People, re-read Troy's post of the federal definition of AP. The definition of armor piercing has NOTHING to do with whether or not the round can pierce armor. Nothing about armor thickness. Nothing about soft versus hard armor. Nothing at all. It is strictly based on the construction of the round.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:46:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:

Originally Posted By johnssa:
The law states: there can not be AP rounds for hand guns, therfore no more AP'S for rifles.



Interesting since 5.7x28mm SS192 & SS195LF both penetrate vests up to Level IIa even some older III.

44 magnum penetrates basically up to Level IV

Now, ballistic protective plates are another story, but really we have to ask what is the definition of "Armor"? Is it a protective vest? An armor plate? A type or depth of steel?

- rem



Level III and IIIA vests must, by definition, be able to stop at least six .44 magnum rounds.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:03:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By remedy:

Originally Posted By johnssa:
The law states: there can not be AP rounds for hand guns, therfore no more AP'S for rifles.



Interesting since 5.7x28mm SS192 & SS195LF both penetrate vests up to Level IIa even some older III.

44 magnum penetrates basically up to Level IV

Now, ballistic protective plates are another story, but really we have to ask what is the definition of "Armor"? Is it a protective vest? An armor plate? A type or depth of steel?

- rem



Level III and IIIA vests must, by definition, be able to stop at least six .44 magnum rounds.



Is that only for JSP/JHP bullets? What about FMJ or LSWC .44 magnum?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:16:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Gooch:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By remedy:

Originally Posted By johnssa:
The law states: there can not be AP rounds for hand guns, therfore no more AP'S for rifles.



Interesting since 5.7x28mm SS192 & SS195LF both penetrate vests up to Level IIa even some older III.

44 magnum penetrates basically up to Level IV

Now, ballistic protective plates are another story, but really we have to ask what is the definition of "Armor"? Is it a protective vest? An armor plate? A type or depth of steel?

- rem



Level III and IIIA vests must, by definition, be able to stop at least six .44 magnum rounds.



Is that only for JSP/JHP bullets? What about FMJ or LSWC .44 magnum?



The original NIJ standard was for a LSWC. The standard now is for a JHP. Stopping the JHP is actually harder to do, which is why this was considered an upgrade in the standard.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:45:05 AM EDT
I have a bunch of SS109 and I live in Dupage also. I ordered it online and UPS dropped it off at my door. It is not illegal. Just curious..what Shop was it?
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:10:28 PM EDT
It was Rinks Gun Shop in Lemont or Lockport. The guy said the ATF was there and the ATF made them return the ss109 to there distributor. We pretty much got in an argument over it as i also explained that i have ordered ss109 and have also had it delivered to my house. I wonder if there is something goofy about the law that may not allow those shops to have it? i dont fricken know
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:07:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
fixed it.
I left out the N-word - my apologies



Well I already thought (hoped) you just forgot the part clarifying [;]
I am amazed about myself to be conditioned to react on stuff like that... 3rd generation German thingy I guess
Anyway, all clear here.

Best wishes
Matt
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