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Posted: 12/11/2005 9:15:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 4:53:38 PM EDT by JackalAR]
What is the difference between the top 3 - 4 M855 here?

www.ammoman.com/webstore_223.htm

I can't tell which is new issue, reject, and twice rejected. I want M855 plinking ammo as well as some premium stuff for personal defense in my 16" 1:9 twist. Are these prices about as good as it gets? Thanks!!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 12:33:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 2:49:25 PM EDT by Rock7]
Subscribing for "SHIT STORM!"

"All units, Irene, I say again Irene"
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:20:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:29:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 1:29:17 PM EDT by Rock7]
I would suggest that you stay away from Ammoscam and get some XM193 from Wideners.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:33:27 PM EDT
I will assume from your post of a link you are referring to the 223 Federal 62 gr FMJ and the XM855PD that is sold in bulk 1000 rnds.


The 223 federal 62 gr FMJ is just that new manufacture good stuff

the XM855PD is also good, except you may have to cull out a few bad ones.

Depends on your usage what you want to get and do.

for Home defense as you described I would get the FIRST box on the page that you see. It is the 855 for 249 for 840 rnds (given your choices you suggested and are looking at)

Ammoman has good prices for good stuff. I am sure you can find cheaper elsewhere but you get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:33:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 1:35:20 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By Rock7:
I would suggest that you stay away from Ammoscam and get some XM193 from Wideners.



Don't listen to this

M*** is the front line stuff
XM*** is factory seconds that does not meet the .mils uber standards and is used for training.
XM***PD is pretty much floor sweepings and internal QC rejects. If you buy any, make sure to hand inspect each round.

ETA: Do not use M855 for HD.
M855 tends to punch right through your avergae target (no BA) without doing a whole lot of immeadiate damage. Had a lot of that trouble in Somalia.

M193 for HD is the way to go.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:34:35 PM EDT
Eric, aka, Ammoman has great prices which include delivery. I get stuff from him all the time and all the ammo has been great--and he and his team are top notch.

The canned ammo you list from his site and the bandoleer stuff are real M855. The M855PD is bulk ammo that should be inspected prior to use. XM193PD (the bulk stuff) has had a bad rep--I don't usually buy it, but rather the boxed XM193 that Ammoman usually has, or gets pretty frequently. Most folks consider it SHTF ammo. I don't recall reading about any major probelms with M855PD, but that doesn't mean there haven't been problems--again checking the stickies might help you find what you're looking for.

Regarding the M855 bandoleers and canned stuff--this is front line ammo like it says--I've got some stored for SHTF, as well as IMI M855 and XM193.

My guess is that the gent who also posted in this thread feels you should have tried a search, or reviewed old threads before posting a question like this. There have been several threads fairly recently on this topic.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:36:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Rock7:
I would suggest that you stay away from Ammoscam and get some XM193 from Wideners.



Don't listen to this

M*** is the front line stuff
XM*** is factory seconds that does not meet the .mils uber standards and is used for training.
XM***PD is pretty much floor sweepings and internal QC rejects. If you buy any, make sure to hand inspect each round.

ETA: Do not use M855 for HD.
M855 tends to punch right through your avergae target (no BA) without doing a whole lot of immeadiate damage. Had a lot of that trouble in Somalia.

M193 for HD is the way to go.


Whatever. It's your money and your life on the line.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 1:47:32 PM EDT
Anytime someone has a question regarding Ammomans ammo, I suggest they call or email him directly and ask him. The other online ammo dealers might start looking a little better.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:01:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 2:04:22 PM EDT by Rock7]

Anytime someone has a question regarding Ammomans ammo, I suggest they call or email him directly and ask him. The other online ammo dealers might start looking a little better.


+1googillion
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:08:15 PM EDT
Rock 7 what are your problems with Ammoman?

I have used him for years and have never had a problem.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:19:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Rock 7 what are your problems with Ammoman?

I have used him for years and have never had a problem.


I don't trust him. He will never give an honest answer to me or anyone else. He is rude to just about everyone and always carries himself as he has something to hide. When it comes to ammo that could potentially be a lifeline, that type of organization will never get my money.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:20:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 2:20:37 PM EDT by JackalAR]
I've read MANY of the stickies and threads here...I was asking which was which on that link because I didn't notice it being labeled as XM or PD anywhere.

Regarding the M855 vs. XM193 for home defense, is this because of the penetrator or additional weight? I got a 1:9 so I could use some of the heavier stuff. If I really shouldn't look at M855 for that, and don't want to settle for the 55gr. stuff, what's next and is it reasonable? Mk262 is prob. too heavy / pricey.

I guess XM193 is a proven performer...but why if overpenetration is an issue with M855 did the military move towards it? Thanks!!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:29:13 PM EDT
Rock7:


This guy is looking for some actual answers.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:37:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR_16:
Rock7:
packy.dardan.com/walky/albums/album11/aak.jpg

This guy is looking for some actual answers.


And thats what I gave him. I suggested that he concider the M193 and let him know where to get it.If you have to ask the difference between the different versions of M855 then in my opinion you are not aware of the alternatives available. I think that most of us would agree that the M193 is a better round for HD. I assumed that that is what he wanted As you can see he is now interested. As far as my last post goes: I was asked a question and i gave an HONEST answer. (Unlike some people that sell ammo around here.)
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:42:30 PM EDT
Read the oracle again...I will reconsider the XM193 round, but I'm all ears for heavier suggestions.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:08:54 PM EDT
thedoctors308 & CAR_16:

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:32:43 PM EDT
Is this the stuff?

FXM193 FEDERAL LAKE CITY M193 AMMO 223 55GR FMJBT

25 = 500rnd Case $110.00

Is this a good price and reasonable for plinking ammo?
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:36:21 PM EDT
Do you reload ammo? The world opens up at your feet when you handload.

Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:41:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 3:44:18 PM EDT by Rock7]

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Is this the stuff?

FXM193 FEDERAL LAKE CITY M193 AMMO 223 55GR FMJBT

25 = 500rnd Case $110.00

Is this a good price and reasonable for plinking ammo?



Yes on all counts.
Plinking as well as Ass kicking.

I love this forum.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:47:39 PM EDT
Don't reload...but will be looking into it in the next few years. Maybe I'll order up some of this stuff then. So this is the top tier stuff from Lake City? I thought it all had to go to the government? BTW, I use to live right on LC's doorstep. I don't think they liked me riding my dirtbike along their fence there.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:06:32 PM EDT
Also, what's this I've read about the M193 round not being around too much longer? BS?
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:28:44 PM EDT
I personally don't think the XM193 will be available much longer. One reason I would'nt waste it on plinking. Order some, ok.... order a lot, sight in with it and store the rest.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:31:17 PM EDT
If you care to explain, I'd be interested in hearing why. You can IM me if you'd prefer, or not at all. No biggie. How much does shipping run...$10 - $15?
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:44:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 5:49:53 PM EDT by unclez]

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
If you care to explain, I'd be interested in hearing why. You can IM me if you'd prefer, or not at all. No biggie. How much does shipping run...$10 - $15?


www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=253383&page=1?
Edited to add the Ammo Shotages link at the top of the page. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=217693

Shipping on 1000rnds from Wideners is $13. to me... which ironic as it sounds, adds up to $223
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:54:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 7:12:49 PM EDT by JackalAR]
Interesting...thanks man.

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't just fall in with the M855 now instead.

XM193 $215 / 1000

M855 $249 / 900

Sounds like many of the reported shortcomings with M855 may have been with 14.5" 1:7. Wouldn't the fact that my barrel is 16" and 1:9 make for slightly better performance than what the oracle's reports?
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:25:25 PM EDT
The M855, XM193 and BH stuff along with a few others are great self defense (aka SHTF) rounds. For plinking as of lately, I have been using the Q3131 from KY Imports and some of the AE stuff.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 6:30:56 PM EDT
Are the Israeli IMI loadings comparable to the 5.56 NATO stuff? Price sure is nicer and availability???
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 7:25:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 7:31:01 PM EDT by Norge1956]

Originally Posted By Rock7:

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Rock 7 what are your problems with Ammoman?

I have used him for years and have never had a problem.


I don't trust him. He will never give an honest answer to me or anyone else. He is rude to just about everyone and always carries himself as he has something to hide. When it comes to ammo that could potentially be a lifeline, that type of organization will never get my money.



Ditto, Ordered M855 and ammo had crap all over it -I could peal an unknown substance off of the casings.

Sent it back and inquired about the refund proccedures. Company stated that the refund would be posted same day when the returned product was received.

After a couple of days, I check my card and it had not been posted. I send another email, just to check on the status and here is the type of response you will get from this company. "You got your refund and dont contact me again concerning this matter.

Took a week for the refund and only after my inquiry about it, it showed up on my credit card.

Also note that when members of AR15 started complaining about this ammo, the staff locked the thread.
M855
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:03:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rock7:
I would suggest that you stay away from Ammoscam and get some XM193 from Wideners.





October2005



Eric is good to deal with, He is a stand up guy and been in the ammo business for many years
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:04:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 8:07:26 PM EDT by Rock7]

Originally Posted By Norge1956:

Originally Posted By Rock7:

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Rock 7 what are your problems with Ammoman?

I have used him for years and have never had a problem.


I don't trust him. He will never give an honest answer to me or anyone else. He is rude to just about everyone and always carries himself as he has something to hide. When it comes to ammo that could potentially be a lifeline, that type of organization will never get my money.



Ditto, Ordered M855 and ammo had crap all over it -I could peal an unknown substance off of the casings.

Sent it back and inquired about the refund proccedures. Company stated that the refund would be posted same day when the returned product was received.

After a couple of days, I check my card and it had not been posted. I send another email, just to check on the status and here is the type of response you will get from this company. "You got your refund and dont contact me again concerning this matter.

Took a week for the refund and only after my inquiry about it, it showed up on my credit card.

Also note that when members of AR15 started complaining about this ammo, the staff locked the thread.
M855



THANK YOU, GOD!!!

[Rock7] Taps in Norge1956 to handle his light work [/Rock7]
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 10:52:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Are the Israeli IMI loadings comparable to the 5.56 NATO stuff? Price sure is nicer and availability???



The brown box variety is. I'm not sure about the white box.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 10:55:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 32ACP:
...stored for SHTF, as well as IMI M855 and XM193.



I don't trust the XM193 anymore. I've had several misfires with it (lots 1 and 4). I have never had misfires with IMI M855, IMI M193, or AE 223.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:49:14 AM EDT
OK, so I'm confused as hell. Some say reject XM193 is better than grade A M855 for home defense / SHTF, then some say the foreign IMI M193 / M855 is better than the Federal rejects.

I want to stock up on 1000 rds. of plinking / HD stuff, shoot up 500 rds or so, then get another 1,000. I'd like to standardize with one loading due to different points of impact between the two loadings. What to do...does grade A M193 ever come available?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:54:06 AM EDT
The Grade A stuff is not available anywhere. Get a 1000 rounds of the XM193 from Wideners. You wont be sorry. I, as well as most other people on this forum, have gone through several thousand rounds without a problem. In my opinion you just can't buy a better round for SHTF/HD.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:07:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 7:08:19 AM EDT by JackalAR]
Leaning toward the XM193.

Question, if I get some of each, (M193 / M855) assuming I have zero'd at 50 yds. with the XM193, will I have to re-zero the irons / red dot for the M855 and vise versa or are they pretty close under 100 yds?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:12:17 AM EDT
Hard to say. Just try it. I think the M855 is not the way to go. Unless you plan on engaging hard targets past 200M.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:07:57 AM EDT
What do you think the military will do about the weak M855 performance from carbines? Go back to M193, develop another loading, nothing at all?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:52:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Norge1956:

Originally Posted By Rock7:

Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Rock 7 what are your problems with Ammoman?

I have used him for years and have never had a problem.


I don't trust him. He will never give an honest answer to me or anyone else. He is rude to just about everyone and always carries himself as he has something to hide. When it comes to ammo that could potentially be a lifeline, that type of organization will never get my money.



Ditto, Ordered M855 and ammo had crap all over it -I could peal an unknown substance off of the casings.

Sent it back and inquired about the refund proccedures. Company stated that the refund would be posted same day when the returned product was received.

After a couple of days, I check my card and it had not been posted. I send another email, just to check on the status and here is the type of response you will get from this company. "You got your refund and dont contact me again concerning this matter.

Took a week for the refund and only after my inquiry about it, it showed up on my credit card.

Also note that when members of AR15 started complaining about this ammo, the staff locked the thread.
M855




NJ
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:01:55 AM EDT
This thread is CRAZY!

I'm trying to figger out who all of the dealers are!
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 12:44:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unclez:
...For plinking as of lately, I have been using the Q3131 from KY Imports....




Q3131 (no a, no 1999 headstamp) from KY Imports is awesome. Loaded to mil spec. Almost as accurate as M855 (no X, no PD) from Ammoman in my 1/7 twist 20" barrel at 100 yards.

M855 and Q3131 (no a, no 1999 headstamp) is my SHTF ammo. UMC is plinking ammo. Of course if you ordered Q3131a and didn't get it I'd send it back too.

Shok
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:17:42 PM EDT
From what I know, if you are doing home defense, better stay with the M193 spec round. For home defense application (assuming CQB type of encounter), the damage to the perp will depends on the capability of the round to fragment after impact. M193 type will have better reliability to fragment at longer distance compare to M855 from the same gun, any barrel length. The longer barrel makes round fly faster, thus you get a better distance before your bullet speed drop below fragmentation threshold (2700 fps). If your ideal situation does not involve shooting anything further then 35 yards, you should be okay either way-M193 or M855. But if your situation may need you to hit something 50yrds but less then 100, M193 will perform better the M855, especially from a carbine length barrel.

Widner seems to be one of the very few vendor that still carries XM193. Most of other place are out of stock. Due to US military does not place order for additional M193 ammo to Lake City plant in 2006 fiscal year, supply of XM193 probably will be dry-up. Grab what you can if XM193 is what you want.

Regarding ammoman, I have order ammo from him before. The shipment is fast and item is as advertised. However, I have not encounter a situation where I need to experience "customer service", i.e. question to the product or to return merchandise, so I cannot give positive or negative comments regarding this topic. However, in life everyone make friends and enemies. When you inquire someone you will hear both side of their stories. I'd say give it a shot and find out for yourself; but if one have a lot more enemies then friends, you may want to put that into consideration.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 1:53:45 PM EDT
Just to let you guys know, I have ordered 3000 rounds of XM193 from the Ammoman, fired 2000 rounds from that, all 2000 fired from my M4 a OK. Did I have zero issues with the 2000 rounds? No. Would I take that ammo to combat? Yes. XM193 is OK with me. Side note: All 3000 rounds are LOT #100. So I can speak for that Lot.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 2:09:40 PM EDT
Thanks again guys, I think I am going to instead look into this new Q3131 stuff instead of the XM193.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:36:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
Thanks again guys, I think I am going to instead look into this new Q3131 stuff instead of the XM193.



good choice in my opinion. i have 3,000 rounds of it and am still buying when i find it for a good price.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:45:15 PM EDT
Going to make the call in the AM. Thanks for your input.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:05:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JackalAR:
OK, so I'm confused as hell. Some say reject XM193 is better than grade A M855 for home defense / SHTF, then some say the foreign IMI M193 / M855 is better than the Federal rejects.

I want to stock up on 1000 rds. of plinking / HD stuff, shoot up 500 rds or so, then get another 1,000. I'd like to standardize with one loading due to different points of impact between the two loadings. What to do...does grade A M193 ever come available?



Anything with an XM in front of it is not grade A. That includes XM193 and XM1911. That doesn't mean they are bad, just not something I care to rely on.

If you want grade A, buy Win Q3131A, AE 223, IMI M193 or IMI M855. The latter two are difficult to find right now, but AE is everywhere and there are pockets of Q3131A here and there.

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:45:06 AM EDT
Going with Q3131...the US stuff.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:23:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:24:16 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By mattja:
Anything with an XM in front of it is not grade A. That includes XM193 and XM1911. That doesn't mean they are bad, just not something I care to rely on.



I'm still wanting reliable confirmation/documentation of this internet myth. I'm not calling BS on you, mattja.

I just keep reading this assertion over and over with no reliable proof.

I would settle for proof of this "Grading" system that I keep seeing.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:56:57 AM EDT
Considering Ammoman doesn't advertise his XM855PD as PD, I'd say stay away from it. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:23:07 AM EDT
ammoman is not the cheapest on avg about 30 dollars more per case w/ shiping, but i have never saw him sell anything that was not 100% matching to what the descrption was listing. If i need ammo in 2 dyas I place my order with ammoman, pay a few $ more and have it on my door step the day after it ships.

I am not a fan of m855 it does not meet my needs so my orders have been less.
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