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Posted: 12/5/2005 7:18:24 PM EDT
[#1]
I like you have been making comparisons, and so far like you I am going with the Black Hills 75 grain OTM. Why?
Good luck finding any Mk262, I just talked to a number of suppliers, to include trying to make a purchase straight from Black Hills and the Mk 262 is on Back Order big time. I also know some of the folks who are claiming to have it are actually out of stock and waiting for more. Unless you have a “REAL GOOD” connection any Mk 262 that you can get will be a 2nd or 3rd level quality reject. I am not real big on buying quality rejects, you can try to sort out the good and bad, and if you can get the good you will be OK, but in this case I don’t want to have to sort through hundreds of rounds and hope I can weed out all the bad. The Black Hills does not have this issue, just the opposite, it is some the best quality off the shelf ammo that you can buy. The Black Hills 75 grain OTM is some of the best ammo going, before the “Heavy” .223 trend hit High Power / Long Range Shooters had been using it with great success. I have shot the 77 and 75 grain for over 3 years and have had great success. For “Tactical Applications / Effective Fragmentation” you will want to go with the 75 grain OTM because it is cannelured, the 77 grain is not. If you have read up on the Mk 262 and effective fragmentation some of the research points out the benefits of having a cannelured bullet. Another option you may also want to consider is the Hornady TAP ammo. Should be similar in performance, the big drawback I see is the price. Below are some pics for comparison (sorry they are not the best).    My research on this is ongoing, I hope to have some more pics, and more importantly some range reports and numbers comparing some of the “Heavy” .223 options out there. Thanks to all of the folks and the “Ammo Oracle Crew” for all of the work in this area. Good Luck, “Capt Richardson” |
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Posted: 12/5/2005 9:31:49 PM EDT
[#2]
The 75gr Hornady also has a shorter neck region in the wound profile than 77gr SMK.
And the published BC value is higher... And it's cheaper than the 77... Been using it since 2004 for 3Gun and long-range... |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 2:11:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Great info. But now for the most important question:
Where is the best/cheapest place to buy Black Hills 75 grain OTM? - rem |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:51:02 AM EDT
[#4]
Shop around!
Seriously, if you "bookmark" some websites and keep checking back on them you can compare pricing and if you get lucky catch a sale. Midway Box 50 = $26.29 Fulton Armory Box 50 = $26.95 Cabelas Box 50 = $28.99 Another option you may want to consider is the Black Hills Remanufactured Ammo (Blue Box versus Red Box), there is significant drop in price, and if you are going to use it for "Tactical / Field Applications" versus "National Match / Sub MOA Paper Punching" it should work out OK. Midway Box 50 = $17.99 Creedmoor Box 50 = $18.55 Cabelas Box 50 = $18.99 I am currently paying $24-$28 per box of 50 for New / Red Box depending on which local supplier has it in stock. I am buying local because the prices are good and I don't have to pay shipping. If you don't have a good local supplier, then you might want to save up and purchase a case via the internet, with a case you might get a price break and they may throw in shipping. If you find a good deal let us know, Good Luck, Capt Richardson |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:54:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Fulton Armory is having a 10% off sale including ammo through 12/24. Red Box 75gr OTM - $472/1000 delivered. Blue Box 75gr OTM - $323/1000 delivered. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:18:44 AM EDT
[#6]
Well that 20yards is about the only advantage to the Mk262 with the current bullet. The 75gr bullet actually has a shorter neck(in gel tests) which means that it starts to yaw sooner. If you look at the ballistic tests on that stuff the 75gr OTM loads tend to be better preformers then the sierra 77gr SMK. IIRC the 77gr hornady or nosler is a better performer then the SMK thats currently used. Of course another plus to the 75gr OTM is that I can shoot it out of 1/9 or 1/7 twist barrels. I like the 75gr OTM load and use that over the Mk262. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 5:42:06 AM EDT
[#7]
OK, 75 or 77gr it is. For some reason, at the Cabela's WB site, the BH moly 75gr are pennies less than the non-moly 75gr (defies logic, it would seem extra process would = more costs).
 So now the question is moly or no moly?  Yes, I understand the ramifications of using moly and that its moisture absorbing/retention qualities require a thourough cleaning after the shooting session. 
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Posted: 12/6/2005 7:46:48 AM EDT
[#8]
No moly.
Also, I've shot thousands of the blue box (reman) and it's good. No worries about Q.C. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 7:57:32 AM EDT
[#9]
What would be the differences in muzzle velocity and energy between the MK262 which is loaded to nato spec and the .223 75 otm? Those of you who pref the 75otm are you reloading to a little hotter powder charge? And also the gel tests that were done that showed the shorter neck, were those .223 loaded 75gr? I am new to the reloading and ballistics aspect of ammo so if I sound like a newbie that is why.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 8:02:44 AM EDT
[#10]
The shorter neck region is due to the ogive shape of the Hornady vs. Sierra, not the muzzle velocity.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 8:03:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Tag for later at home.
Mike |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 8:14:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Thanks Zak, That was something that I had always wondered. Now then what would be the difference in preformance between the two rounds in terms of the different loadings? Is the loading differences between .223 and 5.56 a factor in preformance or is it really a non issue? I was always under the impression that a 5.56 loading would out preform a .223 loading as far as terminal ballistics, Is this true?
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Posted: 12/6/2005 8:20:03 AM EDT
[#13]
Based on my chrono data for 223 and reported Mk262 data, I think the Mk262 will be 100-180fps faster, depending on which particular barrels under test.
You can load Mk262/Hornady NATO TAP duplicates. Suggest using Ramshot TAC and being very careful. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 8:25:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Gotcha! Thanks again Zak.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 9:40:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Thanks a lot guys. I had no idea about the bullet shape and terminal ballistics differences. I love this forum.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 7:34:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Why the MK262 or 75 TAP @ 5.56 pressures? Yeah, it's super cool. But why shoot a load that has shown throat erosion in as little as 1000 rounds? Yes, even chromed bores are susecptable to heat and pressure. Reducing the velocity to something similar to 223 pressures can significantly increase throat life.
This is my uncertified opinion on wound profiles: If the first round doesn't put 'em down.......send another |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 9:46:32 PM EDT
[#17]
And when you are waiting to see if the first round didn't put him down or before you send the second one down range the other guy sends his first one your way? I think it's worth it for defense, it's not like you are going to go burn thousands of rounds, no worry about errosion for most in the small quantity that would be shot and the few that will be needed when the time comes.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 9:53:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Some points to think about: 1. Your rifle's zero will very likely change from shooting XM193 to 75-77gr commercial to 75gr NATO TAP or 77gr Mk262. When exactly are you going to re-zero it from practice to SHTF? 2. Your longer range (ie, 150 yards on out) dope will likely change even from 75-77gr commercial to 75-77-NATOTAP-Mk262. When will you train with this new dope, if the "hot" ammo is not your practice ammo? 3. How will you wring out the ammo/rifle combo without shooting it in training? |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 10:00:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Zak, I don't need to shoot a 1000 rounds of a particular ammo to become proficient, I am proficient enough with my AR/M16. I will "train" with the ammo I intend to use but don't need to go shooting cases and cases, the ballistics are only going to differ slightly as any change in ammo load. Those will be adjusted for. If you need to fire 1000's of rounds each time you change loads, you need to learn to shoot first. I've won a statewide championship at CQB distance though I need serious long range skill training. Why would I have to rezero? Who said I would use the same rifle than the ones I use to plink with?  Most of my rifles are dedicated for one purpose or another, I train with multiple firearms and multiple loads and am proficient with each. At CQB distances, which is what I shoot most, there is not a whole lot of difference between my AR/M16 platforms and loads. I'm sticking with Tap red box right now BTW. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 10:05:18 PM EDT
[#20]
1. Dont plan on it. M193 is close enough for 50 yards and in. 2. Its a minor adjustment. Scope is doped to the "hot ammo" and you will shoot enough to learn it. 3. Marksmanship can be done with the lower power ammo and the zero temporarily reset for practice. Since its at a range and time is non crucial this is easy after you refer to your notes. So it would be easy enough to have an optic zeroed for defensive ammo and practice close range with M193 and shoot groups at longer range with .223 75 grain ammo. This is what plan to do anyway. Got Q3131A, BH Blue Box 75, and Hornady TAP 5.56 75 |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 10:18:18 PM EDT
[#21]
At CQB distances, I agree that changing loads won't make a difference to POI and trajectory is moot. Regarding zero differences between different types of ammo, I have seen large enough differences between XM193, Federal Match, BH, and hot 77gr to cause a missed headshot at 100 yards. This is an issue if you have an upper zeroed with "training" ammo but then switch to other ammo for defense. Regarding long distance trajectory, the drop data will be different. For example, XM193 vs. BH75gr is just over 4" different at 300 yards. That would cause a miss on an IPSC head (example). Is that stretching it for distance? I don't think so. A rifle/carbine is more than a "long pistol." To ignore that medium range (75-300) is to leave capability on the table. Last week, SinistralRifleman posted some typical line of sight distances around outside their shop. They were longer than CQB distances. For police or other "first responders" in a U.S. urban/suburban environment, how far is it across a Super Wal*Mart parking lot? DevL, I think we're on the same page. What I usually do for 3Gun is leave my ACOGs zeroed for BH75gr @ 100. For close stages, I'll use XM193/etc. The POI difference makes no difference. For the long range stages (to 400 around here), I use the BH75gr. This makes close range practice affordable. I am not talking about shooting groups, but shooting arbitrary distance targets out to 400 (at our range) under practical conditions, time, etc. By using BH75gr for everything besides close stages, I only have to memorize one set of holds. Attempting to shoot a longer distance stage with XM193 with a rifle zeroed for BH75 (and my brain programmed for its dope) does not work well... -z |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 11:06:13 PM EDT
[#22]
I never said there were "zero" differences or that there wouldn't be significant difference at long range - I specifically refered to short range. If you have changed loads and are shooting long distance, only a fool wouldn't the adjustments I said would have to be made. This does not require a 1000 rounds. After a few dozen rounds one should know the difference in the loads and be prepared to make the necessary adjustments either mentally or with the optics/iron sights. I don't mix the ammo in my magazine so there are no suprises. I set my optics/sights for the load I am shooting or in a temporary pinch use the appropriate holdover and I will be on. I'm used to using mental adjustments when I mount and dismount my suppressor, different loads are no different. There simply are no significant issues. Adjust your fire to the load anduse the same consistant shooting skills. If it's a new load, test for reliability and zero with a couple hundred rounds and call it good. There's no magic or real concern IMO. Since my defensive/SHTF rifle is not what I use to plink with, there are no adjustments to be made, they are already set for the load that I intend to fire in it, it's good to go. There is no difference between picking that rifle up and picking a different rifle up in another caliber. I'll just add to this than hijacking some more but essentially what I am saying is that if you don't know to rezero when switching loads, you are a moron. If you have previously zeroed with each type of ammo (which does not take thousands let alone hundreds of rounds), then when switching ammo just adjust your sights to where you know they zero as previously tested, takes just seconds. Finding out the initial zero may take a while, but if you don't do that with your golden ammo, then once again you are a moron. I must agree with DevL that such defensive ammo is most likely to be used at short range so it will be of little consequence if you don't adjust for it, which you should. If you are a long range shooter, you already know to adjust. There are no special issues here, when switching ammo your zero will change, and you must adjust accordingly - this is Shooting 101 here, no brainer unless you have no brain, and it's not a hard thing to do in moments after the initial zero as long as you remember the settings for your optics/sights. I don't have any ammo that I wouldn't be effective with under 50 yards without any adjustments at all, they all shoot close enough to defend with. If I am target shooting or sniping at long distance, then obviously I'll have to adjust or find my zero if I haven't already - I always thought that went without saying. Who thinks that when switching ammo the bullets will always land in the same place? I never thought this would even have to be said. Perhaps I am overestimating people? 
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Posted: 12/7/2005 7:32:33 AM EDT
[#23]
This is why I said "when" regarding the zero, not "how much.". Points #2 and #3 referred to using the ammo in some type of bulk for training/verification purposes, #1 was specifically the logistics of re-zeroing when switching back from training ammo to defense ammo. If you have rifles dedicated to S.D. use and they stay zeroed with the hot ammo, great. I wanted people to be aware that there are some issues involved with switching ammo, and that unless they're aware of them, keeping a mag of "golden" ammo and shooting different ammo for training may cause some surprises later. |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 7:57:55 AM EDT
[#24]
I do not think people who keep a mag of "golden ammo" will use iut for defensive purposes past 50 yards or so. The odds are better that they will win the lottery, then be struck by a meteor on the same day than to take a defensive shot at 100 yards or more. The "golden ammo" is still less expensive than factory match .308 ammo so its really not that expensive when you put it in perspective. I have no problem paying for the "golde ammo" to shoot "practical" long range at unknown distances. However I am cheap and cant afford multiple uppers for dedicated ammo types like Mike, so for known distances I will still use the Blue Box.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 11:38:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Do all of these loads fit and feed from a standard M-16 magazine? I have loaded some VLDs in years past but they were usually single shot load them by hand jobs and it worked fine for CMP but I would like to get some of these heavyweights for my 11.5-inch upper with the 1:7 twist for CQB self defense use inside 50-yards.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 11:42:06 AM EDT
[#26]
The 75gr Hornady, 77gr SMK, and 77gr Nosler all fit from mag length.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 1:05:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Per Zak, all of the rounds in question are good to go out of a .223 AR magazine.
A lot of the 77 grain or lower ammo is setup to work out of a AR magazine, but you can also find an exception to the rule that was set up for a bolt gun or single feed, so when in doubt measure the length. To work out of an .223 AR magazine the overall cartridge length should be between 2.275" - 2.285". If you go above 77 grains, or get into handloads, all bets are off. Definitely verify the length before you try to use them. Also watch on the weights above 77 grains, especially with handloads, because they may be loaded for a bolt gun, and they may be loaded “real hot” to try and make the big heavy bullet move over a long range. If you stick with the standard Federal, Black Hills, and Hornady off the shelf stuff at 77 grains or lower you should be OK. Good Luck, "Capt Richardson" |
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Posted: 12/12/2005 1:56:03 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm a fan of Black Hills ammo and like their 75 gr otm. Does anyone know of any gel testing through barriers such as windshields?
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Posted: 12/12/2005 4:27:47 PM EDT
[#29]
The hardest thing for me to do is settle on 1 load. I wish there was a surplus heavy round that wasn't too expensive. I guess the Black hills blue 75 is as good as you're going to get and I need to get some and do testing. At one time I was hoping to settle on their 68 grain loading but my AR doesn't like it too much. And it's really not that much cheaper per box than the 75's anyways. My AR really likes the BH blue 52's but I'm not comfortable settling on that for my SD round. It would probably work, but not as good as the heavier stuff. Plus it wouldn't be all that good for longer range I'm assuming. So Zak you zero your rifles for the BHB 75's and then shoot cheaper stuff at cqb?? That's what I was thinking about doing. Have you found any cheaper loads to have a similar POI to the 75's. I think at one time I found UMC 55 grainers to have a similar POI but they're so inaccurate, it's not good at all.
I'm also curious as to how the 75's do after glass. I also wish someone made a 77 grain fmj, like they did back in Vietnam. |
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Posted: 12/12/2005 4:30:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Yes. I use BH75 for anything long range and/or when precision is required. For CQB type training or stages, I run XM193. If it'll be a mix, I use BH. I actually haven't even tried to find a similar POI but cheaper load. -z |
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Posted: 12/12/2005 5:19:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Thank you sir, you're a gentleman and a scholar! |
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Posted: 12/13/2005 5:59:14 PM EDT
[#32]
tag
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Posted: 12/14/2005 1:54:16 AM EDT
[#33]
There used to be some 3D reloads with the 75 grain bullet that were cheap but they were loaded pretty weak. Still not cheap like ball ammo though. Nothing will be as slow as the 75 in .223 pressure but a 77 or 75 grain bullet I am afraid.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 3:27:24 AM EDT
[#34]
I have recently been trying all the heavy bullet loads I could find in three barrel length; 16", 20" and 24". Loads included, MK262 ,(Cabela's), Red box & Blue box BH in 75 and 77 g, Hornady 75 g TAP FPD, Hornady 75g Match and Utlramax 75 g heavy match. The MK262 averages 100 to 150 FPS faster than the Hornady and BH loads and the Ultramax averaged just 60 to 100 fps slower than the MK262. At 300 yards the Ultramax POI is closer to the MK262 than the other loads with the 16" and 20" barrels. I have only shot 100 rounds of the Ultramax but I am pleased with their performance. I know Ultramax has been bashed a bit around here but I had no problems. If you are looking for a less expensive practice load you may want to give them a try.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 3:55:53 AM EDT
[#35]
They should all work fine in a magazine. I use a lot of the Black Hills 77 gr OTM and it loads and feeds very nicely. For the 600 yard course, I use the very long Hornady 75gr AMAX-MC and that one does not fit in a standard magazine, I have to load it one at a time.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 7:59:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Does the ultramax have a cannalure to it? |
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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:17:28 AM EDT
[#37]
I ordered a case of the blue box BH 75gr OTM from fulton armory a few days ago for $323 shipped. Based on the info in this thread, it seemed like a good defense round. I have tried it before and I know my 1:9 16" bushmaster will stabilize it out to 300 yards or more. I still shoot XM193 and BH55gr for cost reasons, but I want to get familiar with the heavier bullets and how they perform from my gun. Thanks for all the feedback guys. I will probably check out the ultramax as well down the road.
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Posted: 12/14/2005 11:23:34 AM EDT
[#38]
.
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Posted: 12/19/2005 8:46:27 AM EDT
[#39]
This has probably been proposed before, but why can't we get someone here on the board with LE credentials place a large order or group buy for 5.56 75gr. OTM, either BH or Hornady, and split it up? As I understand it, no law is in danger of being broken; its just company policy not to sell 5.56 to civies, right? I'd do it if it were legal and was LE...
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Posted: 12/19/2005 1:21:54 PM EDT
[#40]
I have some data on the 75gr. Only 8" of penetration after passing through automotive glass. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 2:26:36 PM EDT
[#41]
.
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Posted: 12/19/2005 2:33:18 PM EDT
[#42]
tag
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Posted: 12/19/2005 2:48:16 PM EDT
[#43]
tag
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Posted: 12/19/2005 2:48:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Forest,
What is the source of your data. Not trying to doubt your data, just want to read the info myself. Thanks, |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 9:00:44 PM EDT
[#45]
I have a copy of the report Hornady supplies to LEOs. It has testing on the entire TAP line from a variety of barrel lengths. Automotive glass testing is included. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 10:09:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Well, then, give us some details please. |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 7:32:56 AM EDT
[#47]
Honestly there isn't much to share, lots of tables filled with the data. Here is the info on 75gr from a 16" Bushmaster with 1:9 twist. Bare Gel MV: 2616 SD:11 / BB Pen: 3.5"@596fps (that is the gel calibration). Total Pen: 13.63" Depth to Yaw: 1.38" Depth to Max Cavity: 6.25" Max Temp Cavity: 5.38" Retained Weight: 20.8gr % Fragmentation: 72% Max Performance Range: 200yards (note: I think this a bit "optimistic" but that is what Hornady listed) Automotive Glass: MV: 2616 / BB Pen: 3.5"@608fps (that is the gel calibration). Total Pen: 8" Depth to Yaw: 0" Depth to Max Cavity: 3" Max Temp Cavity: 5" Retained Weight: 0gr Deflection: 0.5" Total Deflection at 48.5 feet: 2.4" Note: Deflection is measured in inches of bullet movement off the aiming point per foot of travel. |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 8:12:03 AM EDT
[#48]
Very interesting data. Makes me want to order that 6.5 Grendel upper for Christmas.
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Posted: 12/20/2005 10:33:16 AM EDT
[#49]
Get the 6.8 you'll be happy you did.
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