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Posted: 12/2/2005 10:20:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 10:21:23 PM EDT by GreenM4Guy]
So i wen to the range today with some 77gr,and some old AP, and some brand new greentip AP. I set up a half inch plate at 50yds and shot it.


i was surprised how ineffective the 77s were, i figured theyd at least put a good dent in it


Then i shot the AP, old (upper left) and new stuff, (figuring it would fly right through) it didnt. It did put a pretty substantial dent in it though.


All of this was shot through my 14.5 m4gery


Anyone else ever play with AP and have bad results?
just wondering



Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:24:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 10:26:11 PM EDT by NAM]
It's not AP.

M855 has a steel penetrator, but IS NOT AP.

M995(?) has a tungsten core, but IS AP, and is also impossible to find.

What is this old ap you are referring to? M193 is certainly not AP.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:27:14 PM EDT
The old ammo ( i thought it was AP) had a black tip, and was factory ammo ( dont know from when)
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:34:30 PM EDT
If you shot my armor plate, and I found out about it, I'd be PISSED!

Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:34:49 PM EDT
Youre too close. The rounds high speed will cause it to break up and reduce penetration at closer ranges. Best penetration is at 200m for a 20" barrel and about 150-175m for a 16"

1/2" might be too much for the 5.56 to handle though. Do you know what kind of steel it is?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:36:51 PM EDT
it was a 6"x6" cold rolled steel plate 1/2" thick. OK im going out for round 2 tommorrow so ill try at 150yds and report back.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:56:23 PM EDT
if we're talking 5.56 mm


black tip and green tip are pretty much the same. steel core 62 gr. There are minor differences, mainly load.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:59:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 10:59:33 PM EDT
Your 1/2" plate way too thick. I have pictues of .458 SOCOM easily going through 1/8" steel plate, but being stopped (but a heck of dent) in 3/8" steel.

The test for "AP" small arms ammo is 1/8" mild steel... like a WWII "steel pot" helmet. Try it with 1/8" and see what you get.

1/8" Steel Plate vs .458 SOCOM






3/8" Steel Plate vs. .458 SOCOM



Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:03:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Youre too close. The rounds high speed will cause it to break up and reduce penetration at closer ranges. Best penetration is at 200m for a 20" barrel and about 150-175m for a 16"

1/2" might be too much for the 5.56 to handle though. Do you know what kind of steel it is?



OK, if you say so....



I dont say so...the US Army FM on Urban Warfare does

www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch7.htm#par2
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:09:19 PM EDT
Not to mention also that body armor doesnt utilize steel for the plates. Body armor is composed of sheets of kevlar (there is a new fabric also, just cant think of the name right now), and SAPI plates. SAPI plates are some sort of ceramic composit, not solid steel.

You could probably punch through a car door no problem with the steel core 62 gr. But thats a far cry from trying to penetrate an armored or hardened vehicle. Hell, even 5.56 tungsteine core wont even scratch Chabum armor.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:13:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidHayter:
Not to mention also that body armor doesnt utilize steel for the plates. Body armor is composed of sheets of kevlar (there is a new fabric also, just cant think of the name right now), and SAPI plates. SAPI plates are some sort of ceramic composit, not solid steel.

You could probably punch through a car door no problem with the steel core 62 gr. But thats a far cry from trying to penetrate an armored or hardened vehicle. Hell, even 5.56 tungsteine core wont even scratch Chabum armor.



That goes without saying, as most anti-tank rounds will have a hard time Chobham/Burlington/Dorchester armor
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 11:59:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 12:01:30 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
Your black tip 5.56 is most likely Igman ammo. It's M855 with a different color used, not AP. M995 AP has never been available on the civie market.

For more info:

www.fulton-armory.com/AP.htm
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 12:07:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidHayter:
Not to mention also that body armor doesnt utilize steel for the plates. Body armor is composed of sheets of kevlar (there is a new fabric also, just cant think of the name right now), and SAPI plates. SAPI plates are some sort of ceramic composit, not solid steel.

You could probably punch through a car door no problem with the steel core 62 gr. But thats a far cry from trying to penetrate an armored or hardened vehicle. Hell, even 5.56 tungsteine core wont even scratch Chabum armor.



Some level 3 and 4 armor plates are made from steel. Not the military issue, but it's out there. Private contractors, some military in areas that aren't rated as a high enough threat (private purchase, but these guys were high rank, and still getting the hostile fire pay, tax exclusion, etc) civillians in the US, etc.

The Army states that the M855 will not reliably penetrate a car door. And that with a 20" barrel max penetration is at 200 meters, and with the 14.5" barrel of the M4 it's at about 150 to 175 meters.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 1:20:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 1:21:28 AM EDT by DavidHayter]

Some level 3 and 4 armor plates are made from steel. Not the military issue, but it's out there. Private contractors, some military in areas that aren't rated as a high enough threat (private purchase, but these guys were high rank, and still getting the hostile fire pay, tax exclusion, etc) civillians in the US, etc.


See, I just dont understand that at all. Why use steel when the strength to density ratio of titanium is better? For something like personal body armor ideally you would want something light and semi comfortable. Steel is heavy and cumbersome, but maybe the rigidity is why they choose it over Ti. I dunno, never could figure out mercs.

And for the record, I have never heard of using steel plates, not saying it isnt done, Ive just never run into it. Our vests had fixed vital organ trauma plates, and an outter pocket to insert another 'full' SAPI plate.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:28:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidHayter:

Some level 3 and 4 armor plates are made from steel. Not the military issue, but it's out there. Private contractors, some military in areas that aren't rated as a high enough threat (private purchase, but these guys were high rank, and still getting the hostile fire pay, tax exclusion, etc) civillians in the US, etc.


See, I just dont understand that at all. Why use steel when the strength to density ratio of titanium is better? For something like personal body armor ideally you would want something light and semi comfortable. Steel is heavy and cumbersome, but maybe the rigidity is why they choose it over Ti. I dunno, never could figure out mercs.

And for the record, I have never heard of using steel plates, not saying it isnt done, Ive just never run into it. Our vests had fixed vital organ trauma plates, and an outter pocket to insert another 'full' SAPI plate.



Steel armor plates are also much thinner than ceramic or 100% PE. Level 3/4 steel plates with an aramid wrapping to prevent spall, are usually about 1/4" thick. Spectra/Dyneema plates, while lighter, are about 1" thick

The Russians use armor that has 20mm Ti over 20 layers of aramid...
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:39:46 AM EDT
I thought 5.56 AP is a fenoly to own, same as 7.62 AP, but M2 AP (30-06) was legal? Am I wrong.

M855 is not AP so it is legal to own.

I thought the black tip 5.56 was ss109, which is same bullet as m855 but loaded to a lower vel for the british std rifle.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:44:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 6:48:18 AM EDT by Blanco_Diablo]

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Your 1/2" plate way too thick. I have pictues of .458 SOCOM easily going through 1/8" steel plate, but being stopped (but a heck of dent) in 3/8" steel.

The test for "AP" small arms ammo is 1/8" mild steel... like a WWII "steel pot" helmet. Try it with 1/8" and see what you get.

1/8" Steel Plate vs .458 SOCOM

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/03458Scm.jpg

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/04458Scm.jpg


3/8" Steel Plate vs. .458 SOCOM

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/08458Scm.jpg

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/09458Scm.jpg


But if you do use a real WWII steel pot, I'll have to hunt you down and give you five fingers across the face...

ETA: Is the 5.56 round really meant for punching holes through a steel plate? I've heard that 5.56 is good at putting holes in kevlar vests (which is pretty much almost certainly what you'd have to worry about). How many army's actually issue body armor with steel plates and how many times are you going to be taking out an armored vehicle? I wouldn't really worry about needing to punch through steel with an AR.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:56:41 AM EDT
I would bet money that you did not have real 995... it is pretty effective with punching holes.

Also, I just looked at the plate in my "heavy" vest to see if it says what it is... other than where one of my guys wrote "front towards enemy" on it with a sharpie, there is no information on it, but it is a metal alloy for sure. It is about 8X10 and .125 thick with a kevlar pad on the front (spalling), the plate is in a sleeve that velcros to the front of the vest and can be pulled off easy...
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:58:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 7:25:44 AM EDT by mcantu]

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Your 1/2" plate way too thick. I have pictues of .458 SOCOM easily going through 1/8" steel plate, but being stopped (but a heck of dent) in 3/8" steel.

The test for "AP" small arms ammo is 1/8" mild steel... like a WWII "steel pot" helmet. Try it with 1/8" and see what you get.

1/8" Steel Plate vs .458 SOCOM

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/03458Scm.jpg

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/04458Scm.jpg


3/8" Steel Plate vs. .458 SOCOM

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/08458Scm.jpg

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/09458Scm.jpg


But if you do use a real WWII steel pot, I'll have to hunt you down and give you five fingers across the face...

ETA: Is the 5.56 round really meant for punching holes through a steel plate? I've heard that 5.56 is good at putting holes in kevlar vests (which is pretty much almost certainly what you'd have to worry about). How many army's actually issue body armor with steel plates and how many times are you going to be taking out an armored vehicle? I wouldn't really worry about needing to punch through steel with an AR.



Penetrating 1/8" of steel plate was one of the requirments of the SS109/M855
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 11:43:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GreenM4Guy:
it was a 6"x6" cold rolled steel plate 1/2" thick. OK im going out for round 2 tommorrow so ill try at 150yds and report back.



...waiting for the results
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 12:22:02 PM EDT
British use different bullet color coding. Black tip British is not the same as American black tip. American black tip is 995 and it is not pretty much the same as m855. Also as stated previously AP is illegal in 5.56 and 7.62 for civilians but 50BMG and 30-06 AP are specifically exempted.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 12:51:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 12:54:38 PM EDT by boltcatch]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Youre too close. The rounds high speed will cause it to break up and reduce penetration at closer ranges. Best penetration is at 200m for a 20" barrel and about 150-175m for a 16"

1/2" might be too much for the 5.56 to handle though. Do you know what kind of steel it is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




OK, if you say so....




I dont say so...the US Army FM on Urban Warfare does


Beat me to it! On some things, like many building materials, 5.56 ball rounds have their best penetration (out of a 20") at about 200 yards. On metal plate, though, the amount of penetration is dependent on velocity.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 1:02:56 PM EDT
I have shot M855 at a 1/2 inch steel plate and it went through. The same day I also used some M193 but it failed to go through. The steel plate I used was from an old gas station I worked at as a kid. It was a plate used to cover up gas valves. Cars, trucks everything ran over these so they had to be strong.

Wish I had a camera that day.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 1:05:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
British use different bullet color coding. Black tip British is not the same as American black tip. American black tip is 995 and it is not pretty much the same as m855. Also as stated previously AP is illegal in 5.56 and 7.62 for civilians but 50BMG and 30-06 AP are specifically exempted.



Pretty much any AP ammo that can be used in a handgun is illegal to sell by a dealer, or import. If joe blow has a case of 7.62x39 AP ammo, he can use it and sell it. But it is illegal for a licensed dealer to sell it. There's been alot of paranoia with people making rifle caliber pistols. The thought is that it will make it illegal to import said ammo. Such as 5.45x39. There's been alot of hype about the AK pistols in this caliber, and people are thinking ATF will rule that 5.45x39 steel core is now AP (if they havent' already)

As for reloading AP for personal use, i'm not quite sure.


So if you have true blue AP ammo, don't freak out and get rid of it. now if it's AP ammo for a handgun, then i'd be careful.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 2:34:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 2:52:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 2:57:56 PM EDT by Russ4777]
No 5.56mm round is going to penetrate 0.500 high-hard steel armor plate (Mil-Std 46100) and most likely not even mild steel. I am a test engineer for BAE Systems, the designer / builder of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Our minimum ballistic requirement for some externally mounted components is to defeat 7.62 AP. This requires not less than 0.562 of 46100 HHS.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 3:34:41 PM EDT
Green tips aren't "actual" armor piercing rounds. They can be called "penetrator" rounds. The real 5.56mm armor piercing rounds are silver tipped and are hard to come by.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 3:35:32 PM EDT
I wish i had the pics from this day that i will refer to to back me up but i don't, i'll just have to tell you all about it:

me and a bud had a 1/4" cold rolled steel plate that we set up at approx. 50yds to have some fun with 308 cal. we were shocked when no 308 we had would penetrate it, the best result came from some old Hirtenberger surplus that i had fired from my 21" barrel FAL, it punched it pretty hard but merely made small cracks around where the bullet hit. after a few rounds we thought just for fun sake we would shoot some 5.56mm at it(we used federal M193), fired from a 20" barrel daewoo. we were totally in AWE as the 5.56mm rounds went straight through, clean. one even left the jacket in the hole for us to gaze at but the rest of the rounds the jacket went through as well. every 5.56 round went straight through the steel. the holes left from the 5.56 rounds looked as if the steel had almost like a melting effect around the outer edge. it was pretty awesome to think that the M193 would go through something that 308 would not.

i have no pics. but there were plenty of witnesses there that day that were just as amazed as we were


camaro
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 4:03:02 PM EDT
Curious as to why the US military would switch to the M855 (as well as the rest of NATO with the SS109)?

I would think there would be limited circumstances when it would be beneficial over say a 62gr soft point. Except of course if the enemy would be wearing Level IV body armor. But does any of the current "enemies" of the US or NATO equip their troops (other than Spec Ops) with Body Armor?

Link Posted: 12/3/2005 4:06:46 PM EDT
No wonder you couldn't penetrate, you're using a tacpoint!
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 4:44:54 PM EDT
.22LR will go through car doors.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:01:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Curious as to why the US military would switch to the M855 (as well as the rest of NATO with the SS109)?

I would think there would be limited circumstances when it would be beneficial over say a 62gr soft point. <snip>



Their was this convention in Geneva a while back... they decided that it was best to shoot full metal jacketed ammo at people... so now we design full metal jacketed ammo that fragments to kill folks... cause that soft point is just to evil
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:34:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Top_prop:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
Curious as to why the US military would switch to the M855 (as well as the rest of NATO with the SS109)?

I would think there would be limited circumstances when it would be beneficial over say a 62gr soft point. <snip>



Their was this convention in Geneva a while back... they decided that it was best to shoot full metal jacketed ammo at people... so now we design full metal jacketed ammo that fragments to kill folks... cause that soft point is just to evil



I didnt think Geneva convention said no soft points, you sure? If I remember right they stated bullets of odd shapes were outlawed. Banning sharp points, hollow points, cross points, and who knows what else. Hollow points will expand further, make a bigger exit hole too, sharp point an even bigger hole! But frangibles are OK???? Whats wrong with people in this world?

But you are right there, probably some political crap about it doing too much damage to people, god forbid soldiers actually kill somebody and protect their own lives with better bullets.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:47:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 5:51:12 PM EDT by Top_prop]
Sorry it was The Hague Convention of 1899 that banned hollow points and basically called for FMJ's...

And according to wilipedia t does include frangibles according to wikipedia but what would they know... Uncle sam and NATO could never get it wrong

ETA:

Especially seeing the Article from the Hague Convention specifically says:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions. (excerpted from: www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm)
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:50:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 5:53:15 PM EDT by jaymeister99]
I looked this up. It was the Hague Convention of 1899 that banned "bullets that expand or flatten easily in the human body". But the United States was not involved in this convention, it did not sign on to it.

At the 4th Hague Convention in 1907 the US did sign to "It is forbidden to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering".

Its ok to use Napalm, ok to use frangible ammo, but we cant use SP? The US Military has stated it did not sign the first convention and has a policy not to use it against other regular military. But does allow it in "Counterterrorist operations not involving the armed forces of another state".

Ok, now I understand. Its ok against terrorists (good), but not against anybody else. Even when according to the government is is legal to use it. Stop the madness!

Info obtained at http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:52:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 5:54:53 PM EDT by Top_prop]
Read the articles... the first thing they say is that they only apply if both beligerants are signatories...


ETA... but it has become "standard" to use FMJ's... but we do use non FMJ's against illegal combatants....

Just like the Italian's media busting on us for using White Phosphurous... we weren't signatory on that one either.. and still use good ole Willie pete...

But it is a governmental/political thing any way you cut it...
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:59:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 6:01:53 PM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By Top_prop:
Read the articles... the first thing they say is that they only apply if both beligerants are signatories...


ETA... but it has become "standard" to use FMJ's... but we do use non FMJ's against illegal combatants....

Just like the Italian's media busting on us for using White Phosphurous... we weren't signatory on that one either.. and still use good ole Willie pete...

But it is a governmental/political thing any way you cut it...



CLASSIC! If I read that right then its pretty much useless if one side uses em, not to mention the US didnt sign to it anyway. What the hell then, bust out the soft hollow points. Do way more damage to the enemy. US is using Level IV armor now, soft HP wont penetrate it. Only have to worry about headshots which wont make a difference if you get hit by SP or FMJ anyway.

Still cant figure how frangibles are ok, that certainly can cause "unnecessary suffering", a SP doesnt cause more suffering, causes less cause your chances of dying are much higher, and you die quicker!
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:09:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 6:16:08 PM EDT by kaotic]
A friend of mine works in a steel shop and made me a couple steel targets to shoot at. Made them out of 3/8" steel as of what type of steel I am not sure. He gives them to me all painted white and pretty. He asked me if my pistol bullets would go through the steel. I told him no just dent the heck out of it. I told him my rifle bullets will though. He tells me no way that is 3/8" steel plate. I asked if he wanted to come find out. He said sure. He has never shot a gun before nor did he realize that rifles are more powerful than handguns. Here is what he did to one of the steel plates he made for me. Pics are of the front and back of the same steel target. Rifle shots were at 50+yds and pistol shots were from about 30-50ft.

The holes and dents are circled.
Red=.223 Wolf 55gr FMJ
Blue=.308 South African Surplus 147gr FMJ
Green=45ACP Rem UMC 230 gr FMJ
Yellow=9mm Rem UMC 115gr FMJ


After this fun little day of shooting my friend now wants to buy a Glock 21 and a AR15. He loved shooting mine so much he has decided to buy himself a AR15 for Christmas.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:17:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By Top_prop:
Read the articles... the first thing they say is that they only apply if both beligerants are signatories...


ETA... but it has become "standard" to use FMJ's... but we do use non FMJ's against illegal combatants....

Just like the Italian's media busting on us for using White Phosphurous... we weren't signatory on that one either.. and still use good ole Willie pete...

But it is a governmental/political thing any way you cut it...



CLASSIC! If I read that right then its pretty much useless if one side uses em, not to mention the US didnt sign to it anyway. What the hell then, bust out the soft hollow points. Do way more damage to the enemy. US is using Level IV armor now, soft HP wont penetrate it. Only have to worry about headshots which wont make a difference if you get hit by SP or FMJ anyway.

Still cant figure how frangibles are ok, that certainly can cause "unnecessary suffering", a SP doesnt cause more suffering, causes less cause your chances of dying are much higher, and you die quicker!



The armor used by the military isnt NIJ rated...it meets a different set of specs than those for LE work. The plates only cover 10"x12" front and back (for the medium); that leaves alot of exposed torso
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:41:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:

Originally Posted By Top_prop:
Read the articles... the first thing they say is that they only apply if both beligerants are signatories...


ETA... but it has become "standard" to use FMJ's... but we do use non FMJ's against illegal combatants....

Just like the Italian's media busting on us for using White Phosphurous... we weren't signatory on that one either.. and still use good ole Willie pete...

But it is a governmental/political thing any way you cut it...



CLASSIC! If I read that right then its pretty much useless if one side uses em, not to mention the US didnt sign to it anyway. What the hell then, bust out the soft hollow points. Do way more damage to the enemy. US is using Level IV armor now, soft HP wont penetrate it. Only have to worry about headshots which wont make a difference if you get hit by SP or FMJ anyway.

Still cant figure how frangibles are ok, that certainly can cause "unnecessary suffering", a SP doesnt cause more suffering, causes less cause your chances of dying are much higher, and you die quicker!



The armor used by the military isnt NIJ rated...it meets a different set of specs than those for LE work. The plates only cover 10"x12" front and back (for the medium); that leaves alot of exposed torso



True, I forgot that important part.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:42:56 PM EDT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Boom:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Youre too close. The rounds high speed will cause it to break up and reduce penetration at closer ranges. Best penetration is at 200m for a 20" barrel and about 150-175m for a 16"

1/2" might be too much for the 5.56 to handle though. Do you know what kind of steel it is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


FMJ will fly right thru 3/8" Flat mild at 50 yds.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 8:32:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 8:38:30 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 8:36:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Your 1/2" plate way too thick. I have pictues of .458 SOCOM easily going through 1/8" steel plate, but being stopped (but a heck of dent) in 3/8" steel.

The test for "AP" small arms ammo is 1/8" mild steel... like a WWII "steel pot" helmet. Try it with 1/8" and see what you get.

1/8" Steel Plate vs .458 SOCOM

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/03458Scm.jpg

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/04458Scm.jpg


3/8" Steel Plate vs. .458 SOCOM

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/08458Scm.jpg

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/AFreeMan/09458Scm.jpg


But if you do use a real WWII steel pot, I'll have to hunt you down and give you five fingers across the face...

ETA: Is the 5.56 round really meant for punching holes through a steel plate? I've heard that 5.56 is good at putting holes in kevlar vests (which is pretty much almost certainly what you'd have to worry about). How many army's actually issue body armor with steel plates and how many times are you going to be taking out an armored vehicle? I wouldn't really worry about needing to punch through steel with an AR.



Penetrating 1/8" of steel plate was one of the requirments of the SS109/M855


What I meant was you probably wont be needing to penetrate thick plates of steel. GreenM4Guy was shooting at a 1/2" plate. When are you ever going to see a soldier with a 1/2" thick steel plate in his body armor? And like I said, when are you going to have to take out an armored vehicle with an AR15/M16?
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 4:56:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2005 4:58:40 AM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 8:22:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2005 8:24:29 AM EDT by DukeSnookems]
x
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 8:24:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By Boom:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Youre too close. The rounds high speed will cause it to break up and reduce penetration at closer ranges. Best penetration is at 200m for a 20" barrel and about 150-175m for a 16"

1/2" might be too much for the 5.56 to handle though. Do you know what kind of steel it is?



OK, if you say so....



I dont say so...the US Army FM on Urban Warfare does

www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch7.htm#par2



Jesus people, use your head. That is in reference to penetration through material where the bullet will yaw like ballistic gelatin, people, wood, etc... It basically says the same thing we do when we talk about M193/M855's magic fragmentation at +2700 fps.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 9:28:20 AM EDT
Wheres Old Painless when you need him?!
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 9:38:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2005 9:44:06 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By Boom:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Youre too close. The rounds high speed will cause it to break up and reduce penetration at closer ranges. Best penetration is at 200m for a 20" barrel and about 150-175m for a 16"

1/2" might be too much for the 5.56 to handle though. Do you know what kind of steel it is?



OK, if you say so....



I dont say so...the US Army FM on Urban Warfare does

www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch7.htm#par2



Edit: looks like TROY already made my case above.

That may be the case on softer mediums. For example, .308 will go deeper thru wood at greater distances when velocity starts to drop off a bit. (I forget the exact figures) But when it comes to armors that are harder than the actual bullet, Velocity is EVERYTHING. In other words on a piece of steel, the closer you are the better the penetration. And the best penetrating round is the M193 ball. I've done the testing to prove this.

Our armor gongs take a much less severe beating out at 200 yards compared to 50 yards. Velocity is what ruins our gongs.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 9:41:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By camaro128:
I wish i had the pics from this day that i will refer to to back me up but i don't, i'll just have to tell you all about it:

me and a bud had a 1/4" cold rolled steel plate that we set up at approx. 50yds to have some fun with 308 cal. we were shocked when no 308 we had would penetrate it, the best result came from some old Hirtenberger surplus that i had fired from my 21" barrel FAL, it punched it pretty hard but merely made small cracks around where the bullet hit. after a few rounds we thought just for fun sake we would shoot some 5.56mm at it(we used federal M193), fired from a 20" barrel daewoo. we were totally in AWE as the 5.56mm rounds went straight through, clean. one even left the jacket in the hole for us to gaze at but the rest of the rounds the jacket went through as well. every 5.56 round went straight through the steel. the holes left from the 5.56 rounds looked as if the steel had almost like a melting effect around the outer edge. it was pretty awesome to think that the M193 would go through something that 308 would not.

i have no pics. but there were plenty of witnesses there that day that were just as amazed as we were

camaro



I believe every word! .308 is a much slower round than 5.56. We've shot .308 at gongs that were pitted badly by 5.56 ball, and the .308 just left a pistol like splatter mark on the steel.

Once again, velocity is what damages armor, not big bullets, or silly penetrators. w00t!
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 2:33:16 PM EDT
Here is a Birchwood Casey 44 Mag 3/8" pistol spinner.
Distance 180-190yds
14.5" bbl
Winchester Q3269 (M855)






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