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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:36:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 10:43:46 AM EDT by Zhukov]
Due to the previous thread beig archived, I have to start a new post.

Previous results
162 responses
92 had no problems
43 had minor problems
27 had major problems

This thread is ONLY about the LOOSE boxed XM193PD variant

Please add your personal experience with Lake City XM193PD ammunition to this thread. When you do, please give information about:
1) Firearm used in
2) Approximate number of rounds fired.

I am trying to solicit only information about your PERSONAL experience with this ammunition. If you haven't used it, then please don't clutter up the thread. Information about proper functioning (or lack thereof) is obviously the most important, but factors such as the accuracy or other peculiarities you've noticed are informative also. If you have had problems with this ammo which were severe enough to cause you to stop using this ammo, then please describe them. And one more minor request: keep your reviews objective.

This is part of the FAQ that Troy has written about the "PD" ammo:



This comes up over and over again, so here are the facts. And, no, no one here knows what "PD" really stands for, if anything.



The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is the only remaining small-arms ammo factory owned by the government, and is the source of most ammo used by the US military. [Due to the drastic increase in ammo usage with the WoT, Winchester/Olin, the only other company with the loading machines to make mil-spec ammo, has been given a contract for a few million rounds of ammo.]

Lake City, while owned by the government, has always been run by civilian contractors. From 1986-1999, it was operated by Olin (Winchester). The Winchester "white box" "Q-load" ammo (such as Q3131) was Lake City-manufactured ammo stamped with Winchester (WCC) headstamps.

Starting in 2000, the contract to operate Lake City was given to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), who had just bought all the gun-related companies that were formerly owned by Blount. This "shooting sports group" included: Federal, Speer, CCI, RCBS, Weaver, Outers, Ramline, and perhaps one or two others. ATK chose Federal to run Lake City, and thus, the "Federal XMxxx" loads were born.

The US military has extremely tough and strict requirements for ammo, and many layers of Quality Control (QC) checks to ensure that contract ammo is up to spec. Obviously, as with any mass-produced item, some of the product is going to fail QC.

LC-produced ammo that passes all the QC checks is packaged up and sent out to fulfill military contracts. I call this "Grade 1" ammo, which means "the best." Note that ammo that is delivered to the military can no longer be surplussed as whole ammo, due to an Executive Order by Klinton in 1997, so as a rule, this ammo will never be available on the commercial market.

Ammo that fails QC in a minor way, such as not being completely moisture-sealed, but is otherwise good ammo is "Grade 2". That's what "XM193" is that Federal sells in 20-round boxes: Grade 2 ammo. The same with XM855.

Ammo that has more serious problems, such as severe dents, bent rounds, split necks, and so on, is "Grade 3" (or worse). Federal is selling this as XM193PD and XM855PD, and packs it loose in 500 round boxes. (For those who haven't been around long, loose-packed ammo is almost always Grade 3 or lower quality, no matter who you buy it from. If it was higher quality, it would have been boxed up and sold at full price!)

It is important to understand that batches of Grade 2 ammo may be made up of a mix of Grade 1 and Grade 2, and that Grade 3 ammo may have both Grade 1 and Grade 2 ammo mixed in. The grade is given based on the worst ammo in the lot.

XM193PD (Grade 3) is sold at a discount compared to the boxed XM193 (Grade 2), and real M193 is not available to the public (unless it was surplussed before 1997). Discounted prices on ammo generally mean the ammo is lower quality, especially when the same ammo is sold for two or more different prices, so this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Also note that the PD loads are clearly marked "For Practice Use Only", another indication that this is DEFINITELY NOT Grade 1 (or even Grade 2) ammo.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion you might have. For those who have purchased "PD" ammo, make sure you hand-sort it first, and cull out any bad rounds. Also, be prepared for a squib load or any other unusual behavior, and make sure you know what to do when and if something occurs.

Finally, do NOT use the PD ammo for anything "important", and especially not for duty or defensive use. This is bargain ammo that will give performance and reliability in proportion to its selling price. TANSTAAFL!

-Troy

Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:41:35 AM EDT
Not only did the previous post get archived, but it doesn't show up on the archive server. When it does, I will try to get the summary of the previous posts back up.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:50:56 AM EDT
I have shot about 2000 rounds of it and haven't had any problems...
I went threw and probably trashed ten or twelve rounds out of every thousand that I would'nt even think of shooting, but so far no FTF or FTE...
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 9:59:45 AM EDT
I picked up a bulk load of 1,000 from Natchez a short while back. I inspected each and every one, shaking to ensure it was loaded, looking at each primer, eyeing the cartridge case for dents and excess waterproofing, and inspecting the bullet and case necks. I had about a 7% reject rate that I was not comfortable shooting.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 5:15:55 AM EDT
I bought 1000rds a while back and inspected 500 after reading about problemssome have had. I had 4 that were rolled a little at the top of the case. Not bad but don't feel comfortable shooting them. I am going to shoot some this week or next and will update afterwards.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 4:17:01 PM EDT
I ordered 500 rounds from Sportsman's Guide, and hand checked them. 50 rounds of it were bad enough I didn't want to shoot, so I sent it all back. I am not going to buy it ever again.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 5:25:22 PM EDT
Ive used several thousand rounds of it. I had to go through the ammo by hand and found in general 10-15 rounds per thousand that were obviously unsuitable. I also would get 3 or 4 per thousand squib loads. A few loads seemed to be undercharged but the projectile cleared the barrel.

Accuracy out of my 16" chrome lined bushie was fair. Mainly shooting about 2 MOA at 100 yds.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:14:55 PM EDT
I recently bought 1k of 193PD from a gun show in a sealed case and found something very interesting when I was pulling apart the rejects. I discovered one bullet that was much longer than all of the rest that I had pulled, it weighed 62.5 grs. and had an OAL of .91" (however the tip was not painted green). Was this an M855 load that had found it's way into my box of 193's?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:02:57 PM EDT
I just finished sorting though a box of XM193PD and found 21 rounds with bullets that appeared to be smaller (more pointed) than the rest. I pulled one of them and weighed the bullet. 62.5g. XM855 mixed in? I'm a little concerned that it's a 62.5 gr bullet on a charge for the 55g bullet. what do you think...
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:37:14 PM EDT
I have used several thousand rounds of it over the past few years, in both my SBR, various 16" ARs and 20" ARs.

I'd usually throw out 20-30 rounds from each batch of 500 when sorting them by hand - but would still feel a somewhat lighter recoil (or less loud report) on the occasional round when fired - indicating that visual inspection is not enough to identify irregular rounds.

Last week I had a squib round from an XM193PD lodge in the barrel of my SBR - about half an inch into the barrel. Luckily this prevented the next round from chambering, because had it been just a little farther into the barrel, I hate to imagine what would have happened (to my gun and my face).


I've decided to never use XM193PD in any of my firearms again.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:42:13 PM EDT
I bought 2, 500-round boxes of it from Sportsman's Guide and have used most of one box (less than 100 rounds left). I haven't had any problems so far. I have visually inspected every round before loading and haven't had to cull any yet. I have used it for target practice at ranges up to 100 yards.

It has been fired in semi-auto AR rifles & carbines. All are "parts guns" built on Bushmaster, Olympic, Stag, Rock River, and Colt lowers. Barrels are from Colt, FN, Bushmaster, and Sabre Defence. Bolts/carriers are from Bushmaster, Fulton Armory, DPMS.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:57:28 PM EDT
I have shot up a case of 1000, got them from Natchez.
Out of the 1000, I had approx 20 rejects. Split necks, dents, and rolled case mouths. I found a few with M855 bullets also. Several rounds seemed lower powered than normal. Quieter, and less recoil, but cycled the bolt completely. I had 2 rounds that had no powder at all. The bullets stopped in the throat of the barrel. They popped right out with a tap from a cleaning rod.
Overall, the accuracy wasn't too bad. About what can be expected from M193 ammo. I fired most of it from my 20" 1/12 twist home built AR. Point of impact was the same as boxed XM193, which wasn't a surprise.
I don't think I will be getting any more of the 193PD. Too many issues with the case I got. Especially the under/no powered rounds I got in my case.
On a bright note, I have a thousand or so once fired LC cases awaiting the Dillon.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:11:13 PM EDT
I have bought and used 500 rounds on XM193PD. I had about ten reject rounds out of that. Accuracy was equal to standard XM193 or Q3131A. All or these were fired through a DPMS 14.5" + Phantom M4gery. No problems.

TS
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:39:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 10:29:43 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Bought 2k from Natchez of XM193PD. I've shot about 500 so far and have had 3 bad loads (too underpowered to cycle the action; but did get the bullet out of the barrel) and one cartridge that was so obviously mauled it made me wonder how they managed to seat the bullet in the case like that.

Accuracy has been acceptable and the price was right; I'll probably pay the extra $20-30 for Q3131A next time though.

Edited to add: Up to about 700 rounds now. 10 squib/underpowered loads where the powder is not burning completely but is just left in the bottom of the barrel. 2 rounds that are visibly unsafe to use. XM193PD is now on my do not buy list. Good accuracy though from the stuff that does work.
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