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Posted: 11/22/2005 4:50:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2005 4:50:27 PM EDT by Troy]
I'm going to set up a table at the local gunshow next weekend. I'm tired of looking after some Winchester "Black Talon" ammo I've been hoarding, so it's going on the table. It's just a few boxes, anyway. What should I be asking for it? I have one box of .357 mag., and a few boxes of 45 ACP. I saw it priced at the last gunshow for almost $50.00/box, but I feel that's too high. Plus, my goal is to sell it at a reasonable price, not rip someone off. What do you think?

Bob
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 6:54:44 PM EDT
Shoot the crap.
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 6:57:39 PM EDT
Anyone who buys it for more than $10 per fifty is a fool. Winchester still makes the black talon, its just been improved and is now called the Ranger T.
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 6:58:16 PM EDT
Saw some at a fun show today.. 35.00 for a box of 20.. Im guessing maybe someone might buy it...

Now if it was a box of 10mm Norma..
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 6:59:09 PM EDT
I just love those ads on gunbroker and in gun shows. "this stuff was so deadly they couldn't make it anymore"
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 6:59:25 PM EDT
I believe that black talons have been relabled as Ranger STX. Either that, or the STX performs as well as the black talon. So basically, you have a couple boxes of Ranger STX that people think are willing to pay alot more for than they are worth. Sell em if you can. There is a sucker born every minute.
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 7:00:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Anyone who buys it for more than $10 per fifty is a fool. Winchester still makes the black talon, its just been improved and is now called the Ranger T.



+1 its all over gunbroker too. the ranger stuff is the same stuff
Link Posted: 10/15/2005 7:03:00 PM EDT
its just a label, i think alot of the peeps that would pay high for this, dont know anything bout rangers. its the same exact thing.. some people have the mentality that it has some kinna explosive tip or some shit
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 5:58:47 AM EDT
Allegedly, Winchester removed the sharp tips from the jackets, eliminating the "Talon" part. I have no doubt that the "Talons" were just gilding the lily, anyway. Still, some people feel they just have to have them, I'll make it a bit easier for a few of them, next week. I'm thinking in the $35.00 range.

Bob
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 6:12:37 AM EDT
winchester produces two ver. now....a "civilian" round called the SXT which features the same reverse taper bullet minus those "deadly" claws and a LE round under the winchester Ranger line SXT (supreme exlpansion talon) which is the exact same bullet that the BT was minus the evil black coating.............
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 6:13:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
I had a few 20rnd boxes of .40SW Black Talons laying around for the last ten years or so. Busted them all off last weekend without a thought.

I prefer Speer Gold Dots, anyway.

+1 for Gold Dots
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 6:17:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By beware1gun:
winchester produces two ver. now....a "civilian" round called the SXT which features the same reverse taper bullet minus those "deadly" claws and a LE round under the winchester Ranger line SXT (supreme exlpansion talon) which is the exact same bullet that the BT was minus the evil black coating.............



I might not be looking in the right place, but I use regular SXTs as my carry ammo in my .40, and an LE buddy gave me a handful of Rangers to play with, and the bullets don't look any different to me.

In any instance, i've also got some Black Talons that I use as carry ammo in my .45s, but I do it more for the fact that I have them than anything. I don't figure they're any better than the plain old SXTs that I can buy now (and do).
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:15:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Number 2: ER surgeons were getting cut by the "petals" through their surgical gloves when digging the slugs out of worthless scumbags who were infected with AIDS, Hep C, <fill-in-the-blank> and other diseases, thus infecting the surgeons and nurses.

The "petals" themselves do NOTHING for the wound cavity. They did not "work like a buzz-saw."

Edited to add: Why can't SNOPES have a ballistics lab?



Often overlooked point. Surgeons use forceps to remove bullets. Even a conventional bullet jacket could have a razor edge on it.

Bob
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:20:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anachronism:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Number 2: ER surgeons were getting cut by the "petals" through their surgical gloves when digging the slugs out of worthless scumbags who were infected with AIDS, Hep C, <fill-in-the-blank> and other diseases, thus infecting the surgeons and nurses.

The "petals" themselves do NOTHING for the wound cavity. They did not "work like a buzz-saw."

Edited to add: Why can't SNOPES have a ballistics lab?



Often overlooked point. Surgeons use forceps to remove bullets. Even a conventional bullet jacket could have a razor edge on it.

Bob



I was just quoting an ER physician that they interviewed back when this was all the fuss.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:21:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Noname:
Just the sound of opening a box of Black Talons in a dark room will make 98% of all badguys piss their pants and scream like a Democrat...!

If only Glock made a pump-action Foe-Tee that sounded like a Remington 870!
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:25:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2005 4:27:24 PM EDT by ARDOC]

Originally Posted By anachronism:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Number 2: ER surgeons were getting cut by the "petals" through their surgical gloves when digging the slugs out of worthless scumbags who were infected with AIDS, Hep C, <fill-in-the-blank> and other diseases, thus infecting the surgeons and nurses.

The "petals" themselves do NOTHING for the wound cavity. They did not "work like a buzz-saw."

Edited to add: Why can't SNOPES have a ballistics lab?



Often overlooked point. Surgeons use forceps to remove bullets. Even a conventional bullet jacket could have a razor edge on it.

Bob




Several wrong points here. First they are TRAUMA surgeons. ER docs are what you see in the ER and TV show. Second, we do use our FINGERS to do surgery. A lot of blunt dissecting gets done with the fingers as well exploring an area of anatomy. But regardless, the Black Talons never really posed any real threat to a careful surgeon.

ETA: Also I dont know where you guys are getting Ranger SXTx for $10/50. That is a ridiculous price. You would have to push hard to get white box .45s for $10/50.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:31:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pale_pony:

Originally Posted By anachronism:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Number 2: ER surgeons were getting cut by the "petals" through their surgical gloves when digging the slugs out of worthless scumbags who were infected with AIDS, Hep C, <fill-in-the-blank> and other diseases, thus infecting the surgeons and nurses.

The "petals" themselves do NOTHING for the wound cavity. They did not "work like a buzz-saw."

Edited to add: Why can't SNOPES have a ballistics lab?



Often overlooked point. Surgeons use forceps to remove bullets. Even a conventional bullet jacket could have a razor edge on it.

Bob



I was just quoting an ER physician that they interviewed back when this was all the fuss.




Surgeons do use forceps to remove the bullet itself, but often they move intestines, etc. aside with a gloved hand. It is theoretically possible to cut oneself on a fragment accidentally in this manner. I don't know if it has ever really happened before.

The bullets I've seen pulled out have been mostly FMJ, and even those can leave copper fragments.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:34:36 PM EDT
ARDOC, you beat me to it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:34:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:36:15 PM EDT
If you look at an xray of a hig velocity 5.56 wound it looks like someone peppered it. There are several larger fragments and many many tiny little ones.

Pistol caliber bullets rarely fragment to this degree. Especially FMJs. They are too slow to fall apart that much. Even hollowpoints dont deform too much. We pulled out some winchester silvertips in 40 cal and the tops were not even mushroomed. The guy was wearing a thick winter jacket and the hollow points were stuffed with clothing material and they acted like FMJs.

Under normal circumstances, black talons will not disingerate unless they hit bone or something else thats hard. Soft tissue wounds dont cause them to fall apart.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:39:37 PM EDT
Maybe I shouldn't have said "fragment". There is usually a main mass of lead and copper and then sometimes a couple of copper flakes that broke off.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 4:46:04 PM EDT
black talons are over rated with piss poor ballistics. Shoot up em or sell em to someone that thinks they are great.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 5:03:25 PM EDT
Theres a sucker born every minute. I have no doubt that you can unload your talon ammo. However, what will happen if you try to make a buck on them ,is that informed buyers may see the jacked up price and shy away from your other goods. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 5:05:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2005 5:06:39 PM EDT by ECM242]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
We pulled out some winchester silvertips in 40 cal and the tops were not even mushroomed. The guy was wearing a thick winter jacket and the hollow points were stuffed with clothing material and they acted like FMJs.

This has had me wondering if it is better to go with the cor-bon powerball.
Troy what do you think of these, Better option than the ranger T's?

Looking for info for 9 and 45.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 7:05:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2005 7:06:25 PM EDT by racezilla500]
I think the majority of guys will say that Black Talon ammo is collectable now. A lot of you guys are looking inside the box and not outside the box. Sure the ammo is old. Sure there are designs that are new and just as effective. But, without a doubt, the Black Talons have a legend behind them that have made them more collectable than just another box of carry ammo.

IMHO, if someone's got the cash and they want Black Talons....who's to say they are suckers or fools? Most folks aren't looking to shoot or carry them. To each their own.

Good luck selling them. I'm sure there are several folks that would love to finish their collection of Talons. zilla
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 7:14:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Noname:
Just the sound of opening a box of Black Talons in a dark room will make 98% of all badguys piss their pants and scream like a Democrat...!


Man, am I ever gonna use that one!

In fact, I'll be hoping for the chance to drop that in an email or two with a couple of Demo friends. Nice job!
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 11:37:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pale_pony:

Originally Posted By anachronism:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Number 2: ER surgeons were getting cut by the "petals" through their surgical gloves when digging the slugs out of worthless scumbags who were infected with AIDS, Hep C, <fill-in-the-blank> and other diseases, thus infecting the surgeons and nurses.

The "petals" themselves do NOTHING for the wound cavity. They did not "work like a buzz-saw."

Edited to add: Why can't SNOPES have a ballistics lab?



Often overlooked point. Surgeons use forceps to remove bullets. Even a conventional bullet jacket could have a razor edge on it.

Bob



I was just quoting an ER physician that they interviewed back when this was all the fuss.



I know. I read the same bullshit.

Bob
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 1:29:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 1:34:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 1:37:33 PM EDT
Troy,

What about the Golden Sabres? Are they as good as the Tactical/Gold Dot/Ranger T or are they a step below?
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 1:48:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
ETA: Also I dont know where you guys are getting Ranger SXTx for $10/50. That is a ridiculous price. You would have to push hard to get white box .45s for $10/50.




The point was that BT's aren't WORTH any more than that - because they are nothing more than practice ammo now, and decade-old practice ammo, to boot.


Link Posted: 10/17/2005 1:53:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 1:57:40 PM EDT
I would insist on $40 a box to anyone with a vendor button ....

Give it to a vendor for what it's worth, and you'll only make the suckers go to another table for their screwing.

You might as well sell it to a friend for what it's worth if you're not going to shoot it and don't want to take advantage of people.

But before doing so, you might put it on the table with a "not for sale" sign that explains what it's REALLY worth. (Perhaps the same price as regular hollow points?). That should 'endear' you to the schisters.....
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 2:12:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2005 4:01:39 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
I shot some Black Talons into water, after first going through thick cloth.

I believe it was Troy that warned me that they had a reputation of not opening if plugged with cloth.

Sure enough, that's what happened.

The Ranger SXT loads did much better.

You can read about them here: www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

And here: www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot10.htm

Newer ammo seems to have solved some problems.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 3:04:45 AM EDT
Well considering that I sold it right after Winchester stopped offering it to the public for $20-25 a box, and sold out, incidentally, that $25-30 would be fair. Unless you just have to be a jerk...like many gun show vendors. But get as much as you can, obviously. Fool and his money are soon parted, as they say.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 3:43:33 AM EDT
I had a few 20rnd boxes of .40SW Black Talons laying around for the last ten years or so. Busted them all off last weekend without a thought.

I prefer Speer Gold Dots, anyway.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 3:57:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Anyone who buys it for more than $10 per fifty is a fool. Winchester still makes the black talon, its just been improved and is now called the Ranger T.



Thats what I know too. They just re-named it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 7:59:38 AM EDT
shot placement.....remeber shot placement.........thats the key.............on the outside there is no easy way to tell the difference..only way is to take a look at the slug at the post mortem......or easier and less messy is wet newsprint..ord. gelo or water jugs............
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 8:13:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2005 8:15:25 AM EDT by pale_pony]
Talons had 2 things going against them...

Number 1: The word BLACK which had the racists (NAACP, "The Klan with the Tan") all upset because they said that the bullets were meant for shooting blacks.

Number 2: ER surgeons were getting cut by the "petals" through their surgical gloves when digging the slugs out of worthless scumbags who were infected with AIDS, Hep C, <fill-in-the-blank> and other diseases, thus infecting the surgeons and nurses.

The "petals" themselves do NOTHING for the wound cavity. They did not "work like a buzz-saw."

Edited to add: Why can't SNOPES have a ballistics lab?
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 11:44:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2005 5:15:24 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 12:11:09 PM EDT
i thought I was on the money hm guess im not that sharp after all................
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 12:12:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
I had a few 20rnd boxes of .40SW Black Talons laying around for the last ten years or so. Busted them all off last weekend without a thought.

I prefer Speer Gold Dots, anyway.

+1 for Gold Dots



+2 for Gold Dots.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 12:17:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
I had a few 20rnd boxes of .40SW Black Talons laying around for the last ten years or so. Busted them all off last weekend without a thought.

I prefer Speer Gold Dots, anyway.

+1 for Gold Dots



+2 for Gold Dots.



That's what I carry.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 12:19:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

My brain is exploding from all the false information on this thread!!!


photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17287

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17288
Not pictured here are the "Black Talons", which are identical to the Ranger SXTs in the middle except they have a nickeled case.


In the beginning, there was the "Black Talon" load, in the Winchester Supreme line. The BT was a 3rd-Generation JHP, like the Golden Sabre, Hydra-Shok, and Hornady XTP, and its performance was on par with those bullets (i.e., nothing particularly special). Unfortunately, the same marketing prowess that made the "Black Talon" name synonymous with "uber-desirable" in the gun community also quickly made it a pariah in the media. Propaganda story after propaganda story from the anti-gun crowd and the "if it bleeds, it leads" media, lead to people talking about a ban on this (and many other types) of ammo. Given the anti-gun momentum during the early 90s, Winchester gave in and voluntarily withdrew the Black Talon line of ammo. It was never banned.

Soon, Winchester was loading the same Black Talon bullets in their LEO-only Ranger line of ammo, but with a plain brass case instead of the nickel case used by the Supreme "Black Talon" loading, and using the name "Ranger SXT". "Ranger SXT" isn't nearly as sexy as "Black Talon" to the media, so nary a peep was ever made about the fact that LEOs continued to carry these bullets for much of the following decade.

For the civilian market, Winchester designed (if you can call it that) a new bullet for their Supreme line: the Supreme SXT. It was pretty clearly designed on a bar napkin to somewhat resemble the basic shape of the Black Talon, but any thoughts of actually conducting any performance testing on the design were forgotten following the 3rd round of Jaeger shots. It is essentially an FMJ bullet that has the shape swaged into it, and then has the cavity drilled out. This is NOT how you construct a proper controlled-expansion bullet! The only things Winchester will say about these bullets is "we have not released any performance data at this time" and "we don't market this line of ammo to LEOs". Run away. FAR away.

In the meantime, terminal ballistics testing by the scientific community, who were reviewing real-world shootings, noting performance failures, and designing tests to recreate them, was showing many areas of failure among all 3rd Gen JHP designs. Specifically, while they performed well against naked flesh, even minor barriers like light clothing, not to mention barriers like sheetrock, sheet steel, and glass, would greatly reduce expansion reliability. As a result of many years of testing and peer-reviewed reporting in the scientific community, a 4th Generation of bullet designs emerged.

Winchester's 4th-Gen bullet is called the Ranger-T, is loaded in a nickel case, and has dropped the black coating on the bullet. As one might gather from the name, it is an evolution of the Black Talon bullet, and yes, it retains the "talons". But the real story is that expansion reliablity through all test media has been significantly improved. Ranger-T bullets will expand as designed in many situations that would have the Black Talon performing just like a FMJ bullet. Ranger-T loads are what you want. Black Talons, while among the best of their day, are severly outclassed by the modern 4th Gen designs.

Don't fall for the hype. Carry a 4th Gen design (Ranger-T, Gold Dot, or Federal "Tactical").

-Troy



You rule.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 12:24:21 PM EDT
Just the sound of opening a box of Black Talons in a dark room will make 98% of all badguys piss their pants and scream like a Democrat...!
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 5:36:48 PM EDT
But "BLACK TALON" is a cool name.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 6:12:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2005 6:13:22 PM EDT by ARDOC]
The best one was a drug dealer had a deal go bad. It must have been one us because he got capped with a .45 ACP. But he saw the gun and was running away when he got hit in the ass. Deflected over his tailbone and stopped near his shoulder blades. Amazingly nothing of value was hit. We took him to surgery and took out a .45 FMJ right under the skin. You could see the rifling marks and a little dent where it had it the bone. But otherwise in one piece. Damn lucky bastard if you ask me.

His chart was thicker then the Bible. He had a titanium femur and walked with a limp. Shot multiple times and survives. He was only like 28yo. I went to round on him the enxt morning and he was gone. The nurse said he had turf to protect.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 6:19:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2005 6:20:06 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
The best one was a drug dealer had a deal go bad. It must have been one us because he got capped with a .45 ACP. But he saw the gun and was running away when he got hit in the ass. Deflected over his tailbone and stopped near his shoulder blades. Amazingly nothing of value was hit. We took him to surgery and took out a .45 FMJ right under the skin. You could see the rifling marks and a little dent where it had it the bone. But otherwise in one piece. Damn lucky bastard if you ask me.

His chart was thicker then the Bible. He had a titanium femur and walked with a limp. Shot multiple times and survives. He was only like 28yo. I went to round on him the enxt morning and he was gone. The nurse said he had turf to protect.



He'll be back. They always come back with a new GSW or stabbing wound. Sometime they make the return trip in body bag though.
Link Posted: 10/16/2005 7:40:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By racezilla500:

IMHO, if someone's got the cash and they want Black Talons....who's to say they are suckers or fools? Most folks aren't looking to shoot or carry them. To each their own.

Good luck selling them. I'm sure there are several folks that would love to finish their collection of Talons. zilla



+1

Some people are buying the image. Like paying too much for jeans that have a fancy label on them. Even at $50 a box, they might feel they are getting a super deal. You are not selling ammo, you are selling a dream. Don't spoil the image by practically giving them away. Something is worth what somebody will pay for it. If they pay it gladly then you aren't ripping them off.
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 3:05:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

Thats not fantasy at all. I have actually seen bullets with clothing material stuck in the hollows. At first I was like WTF is in the nose. Then we pulled out the fibers and you could see it was cloth mashed into the nose.



Of course it's not fantasy.

It's the Box O' Truth.
Link Posted: 10/17/2005 2:29:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I shot some Balck Talons into water, after first going through thick cloth.

I believe it was Troy that warned me that they had a reputation of not opening if plugged with cloth.

Sure enough, that's what happened.

The Ranger SXT loads did much better.

You can read about them here: www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

And here: www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot10.htm

Newer ammo seems to have solved some problems.



Thats not fantasy at all. I have actually seen bullets with clothing material stuck in the hollows. At first I was like WTF is in the nose. Then we pulled out the fibers and you could see it was cloth mashed into the nose.
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