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Posted: 7/26/2005 8:49:41 AM EDT
[#1]
R-read my original post. When you are done...re-read it again. What I said was not "paranoid internet rumor BS, legal paranoia and all around cowardice". When there is money involved attorneys will do whatever it takes to make their case. I work for a PD and have been through lawsuits (though not shooting ones) and have been on the stand many times. Attorneys will do whatever it takes to win....and that includes some pretty weak arguments. When we have worked civilian shootings we always ID the round fired. One time it even helped us make our case against the shooter. And guess what....it's in the report for lawsuit happy attorneys to read. If you want to carry presonally loaded ammo then go for it. All has been said is that it's probably not the best idea. You don't agree? That's fine. But keep your attitude to yourself. This is supposed to be a rational discussion. This isn't the GD. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 9:01:24 AM EDT
[#2]
1/9 twist 14.5 inch barrel 55 grain TAP. I am a Police Officer and have been involved in many shooting cases, and lawers will use any edge especially the ammo you use against you in court. That is why I am only allowed to use department issued ammo.
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Posted: 7/26/2005 10:22:35 AM EDT
[#3]
If 90rds  doesn't cure the situation, nothing will. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 10:53:46 AM EDT
[#4]
M193
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Posted: 7/26/2005 10:58:00 AM EDT
[#5]
75gr TAP.
77gr OTM 5.56. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 2:13:35 PM EDT
[#6]
This thread has me re-thinking whether to use my reloads or not. Couldn't the same ammo argument be made against the folks using XM193? It is a military round after all. Is the best (most PC) choice Wally world .223's or something else? I haven't made my mind up yet, but at personal defense ranges the extra accuracy I get from my handloads is not worth any extra liability.
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Posted: 7/26/2005 2:37:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Glad to hear that you are at least re-thinking it. Nothing wrong with having an open mind! I wouldn't see a problem with XM193. Remember, it's a commonly available round and is used by some police departments. Just choose a round that's commonly available to the general public. I do NOT want to start the LeMas ammo arguement but irregardless of how good or bad that round might be.....a good reason not to use it is that it's not commonly available to the general public. So.....lesson to take here.....if anyone can readily buy it....it's probably a good choice from a liability standpoint. I'm NOT going to get into the argument about what round might be the best from a terminal ballistics standpoint!!! Oh...and I voted for M193. I have Q3131A near my rifle. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 2:42:49 PM EDT
[#8]
XM193
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Posted: 7/26/2005 3:33:02 PM EDT
[#9]
that is basically my whole point, an attorney/prosecuter will use whatever they can to win and if you are using handloads they will use it against you, plain and simple. Dilbert, if I were you I would make the switch, like you posted it's not woth the extra liability. |
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Posted: 7/26/2005 4:08:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Federal boxed XM193. Because it has NATO 5.56 power, it fragments, and it is available from a (fairly?) recent manufacture. Though I still have not figured out any lot # / date of a manufacture correlation.
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Posted: 7/26/2005 10:37:40 PM EDT
[#11]
whatever I have in the mag at the time. Usually I keep a mag of 3131A in it, but hell, sometimes the wolf is in it. Rifle > Pistol no matter the ammo.
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Posted: 7/27/2005 3:37:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Whatever is handy. Usually:
Sig P220 with zero slide finish left, but fresh springs/230 Grain Gold Dots Marine Grade 870 loaded with 8 rounds of some type of buckshot M4gery with a Surefire light and a couple mags of 77 grain "target ammo". "Well judge, I really don't care for that 'combat ammo' at all; golly it'll go through a Buick, a house and a school yard." lawndart |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 9:57:14 AM EDT
[#13]
First gun up: bedside Glock 19 with M3 light and Winchester 127-grain +P+ HP.
AR-15 (actually CAR-15): First mag up is 20-rounder with Federal 55-grain Ballistic Tips (same as TAP perhaps..?), and following magazines are Winchester 64-grain PowerPointPlus softpoints. |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 2:54:04 PM EDT
[#14]
 Can you cite one case where this has happened. Not a flame on you, but I think the ARGUMENT is silly. Have you ever seen any ammo advertised as "Less deadly"? Or "Approved for use by Trial Lawyers and Prosecuters"? Using that logic we should all revert to Red Ryders. And use less deadly BBs. Arguing that handloads are "more deadly" than factory loads would be hard to prove. What if they were loaded light for competition? What if they were loaded hot, but were not as powerful as DoubleTaps? I've never loaded anything with as much zing as those. I know where you are coming from and I've heard this argument any number of times- and I'm not arguing that you can be in deep doo doo, even with a justifiable use of deadly force. I just think that my deadly force vs Winchesters deadly force is a non-starter. It would be the same as the DA saying, "Mr. Callgood, you chose to use your Glock 20 instead of your Hi Power to repel Mr. Yegg BECAUSE YOU KNEW IT WAS MORE DEADLY!" Well, duh!
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Posted: 7/27/2005 2:59:24 PM EDT
[#15]
XM193 is not a military round. Bill Klinton made damn sure of that. XM193 is not sold to the military, nor is M193 sold to civilians. You're good. That said, look into Hornady 75gr TAP anyway, I think you'll find everything you would want. From a PC perspective, you can at least say "It's what the police use" |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 5:12:39 PM EDT
[#16]
I guess technicalities work both ways!  My rifle has a 1 in 9 twist barrel, but who needs stabilizaton at 20 feet anyways. Thanks for the tip.
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Posted: 7/27/2005 5:28:34 PM EDT
[#17]
I can not cite a single case where a hanload has been used against a defendent in a shooting case. If you have read just a few cases of where a person was put on trial for a shooting you would understand where I am coming from. In just about all of the cases I have read the defendent was found not quilty but the DA tried whatever they could to convict. Many cases the DA tried to use the fact that the defendent used HP's saying that the defendent loaded his gun with HP's so they would be more deadly. To use your example of saying that a person shouln't have used a Glock but should have used something else, that exact case has happened. The defendent had a .40 Glock and the DA tried to use that against him. All I am saying is that it just does not make any sense to use a hanloaded ammo instead of factory loaded. There are no positives only negatives when using handloads for HD/SD. Why would you want to give the DA something they could use against you if they decided to try you. Even if the hanloads were loaded to lower specs than certain factory loads the DA is still going to say that you loaded your own ammo so you could make it more deadly. Wheter that is true or not they are still going to say that. Go and buy The Ayoob Files and you will understand what I mean. DA's will say anything to win and it doesn't matter if it's true or not it only matters if the jury beleives it. |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 7:08:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Because this RETARDED logic is quite prevalent on this site. Lumpy196 and myself are constantly in dismay at the stupidity of it! |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 7:36:33 PM EDT
[#19]
20 rounds of 6.8 SPC that are 110 grian Barnes X bullets over 31.7 of AA2520(2600fps=1700 ft lbs) in a 25 rnd PRI Mag for my 16' Recce carbine with an EOTECH. It's for Coyote's, wild dogs and any VARMINTS!!
And I really don't Give A **** if they are "My hand loads" Because the "Varmint" that might get them would Be DEAD! Dead Varmints can't sue ya. I would not shoot a VARMINT unless It Needed KILL'IN |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 8:28:05 PM EDT
[#20]
In my 9s, 38' and 357 I am still using Black Talons I bought manufactured in 93. I have a large supply of newer 03 and 04 manufacture Federal Hydra-Shock, Winchester SXT, and Remington Golden Sabers for these firearms. I am tempted to change my ammo but really like the Talons.
In my ARs I use fresh M193 in the 9/1 twists and 855s in the 7/1 twists. |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 11:25:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Mental note: CaptSchofield is a bad ass.... 
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Posted: 7/28/2005 12:30:30 AM EDT
[#22]
No, not really a bad ass just old, ornery and tired of dumbasses that think you have to be politically correct and only use Factory ammo or some one might sue you. In my work envirorment (24 years) I've had hundreds of law suits filed with my name on them and only one ever made it to a court of law and it was a civil employment issue! I was also trying to be funny, but , oh well. |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 3:28:01 AM EDT
[#23]
I have been questioning this logic for the last couple of years as well. One would think that someone who is heavily involved with guns as a hobby would know better. "I keep my ARs locked up and use my coach gun for self defense." Its like saying, "I keep my fire extinguisher locked up, but I have my salt shaker handy in case there is ever a fire." 
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Posted: 7/28/2005 6:06:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Allright. That's fair, I guess I missed the sarcasm. My apologies. Came across differently. 
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Posted: 7/28/2005 9:20:17 AM EDT
[#25]
223 REM 75 GR TAP - FPD For Personal Defense
Says it right on the box, you can show it to the cops, DA, the jury, the judge, your mom, your dad, your priest, the tv crew, etc.... |
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Posted: 7/28/2005 10:19:52 AM EDT
[#26]
I roll my own with Hornaday 68gr OTM's.
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Posted: 7/28/2005 6:20:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Q3131A
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Posted: 7/29/2005 9:12:18 AM EDT
[#28]
I keep a couple magazines loaded with M193-equivalent reloads, although I have to admit that my preferred home defense longarm is the 870 loaded with 00 buck.
If'n my AR was my primary home defense arm, I guess I'd be a little bit more concerned about it... |
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Posted: 7/29/2005 11:34:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Q3131A for me.
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Posted: 7/29/2005 6:11:10 PM EDT
[#30]
In my AR, I keep 75 gr TAP.
I use a Pistol though for my "bump in the night gun" , Glock 17 with M3 light, Winchester 147 gr Ranger T load . But when tensions are running high in our city, (we've had riots before) or if I am having problems at work (LEO), the AR moves from the safe to the bedroom. Beat Trash |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 12:41:12 PM EDT
[#31]
I’m not trying to be a jackass or anything but if you are using an AR-15 for home defense the last thing I would worry about is the ammo being construed as “more lethal”. It doesn’t matter. If the DA wants to prosecute you then you are screwed as far as gun choice goes. I mean do you really think he has to try and prove that your “home made” ammo is more lethal when you are using an AR? All he will have to do is bring the gun into the courtroom and show it to the jury. Ballistics is hard to explain; a big black gun that looks like an M-16 is not.
That being said, I am not saying an AR is a bad idea as a home defense weapon, just not the best if you are worrying about how it “looks” to a jury. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 1:12:39 PM EDT
[#32]
AR , AK , HK , + 50 or so mags in safe. Mossberg 500 , Glock 17 , S&W 19 readily available for home defense. I think that should do it . Big problem (WW3 ? open safe) Buy your ammo at Walmart no problem in court (Walmart good right ?)
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Posted: 7/30/2005 9:26:42 PM EDT
[#33]
For home defense I use the following ammo. 1st choice: Hornady TAP 75gr 2nd choice if I'm out of TAP is IMI M855 62g  Sic vis pacem para bellum. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 11:11:02 PM EDT
[#34]
I keep a 1911 in the bedside table, a 12 ga. 870 Police Magnum behind the door, and in the gun closet I have an AR carbine locked and loaded with 40gr. ballistic tips and a back-up mag of green tips on the stock. Thinking is that if the buckshot won't take the BG down, the .223 will, but I don't want overpenetration that I'd get with ball ammo. If something truly nasty happened, can't really imagine what in a neighborhood scenario, I'll grab the FAL which is on standby with a mix of ball and AP. If that doesn't work, I don't have any claymores or air support so I guess we'll have to run for it.
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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:20:13 AM EDT
[#35]
My AR's are also in the safe with a couple of loaded 30rndr's XM 193
My bump in the night guns are my Benelli M1 Super 90 with 00 and my Sig 220 |
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