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Posted: 6/24/2005 10:29:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2005 10:38:53 AM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 11:06:28 AM EDT
Troy, every pack in PD I have seen is 1000rds not 500.
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 11:11:05 AM EDT
tag.
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 12:57:16 PM EDT
thank you for the info Troy
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 8:52:29 PM EDT
Troy,
If you are still there, I have purchased several loose lots of 1000 XM193 that appeared very clean overall. They were remanufactured by Federal and have minimal physical flaws. Should these be considered grade 3?
Link Posted: 6/24/2005 11:57:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2005 12:03:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2005 8:33:46 AM EDT
Man Troy you know Everything are you CIA?
Link Posted: 6/25/2005 4:52:46 PM EDT
I just sorted through 500 rds of PD and pulled 23 rounds that I considered "iffy". Defects ranged from split necks to heavily dented bodies, some had slightly bulged necks and some had a gooey tar like substance around the neck where the bullet seats. Most were 2003 manufacture although some were from the mid and late 90's. I'll probably shoot some of the defective rounds but only one at a time to be safe and the ones with the split/bulged necks are going in the trash.
Link Posted: 6/25/2005 5:49:04 PM EDT
So does that mean the goverment is still using 55gr. I thought they only used 62 gr 855. So why is LC still producing xm193?
Link Posted: 6/26/2005 12:04:30 PM EDT
thanks for the info. I just got 1000 rds on friday from a vendor. I didn't realize it was grade 3 ammo. It is being advertised as "government issue". I guess grade 3 really isn't "government issue". feeling like I just got bent over and used.

I normally fire remanufactured ammo from a local company with very few if any incidents. should I expect at least simmilar performance from this XM193PD? I'm taking a tactical carbine class this week I sure hope I don't have 1000rds of junk.
Link Posted: 6/26/2005 3:16:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Docsprague:
So does that mean the goverment is still using 55gr. I thought they only used 62 gr 855. So why is LC still producing xm193?



There are still plenty of older rifles in service that need the 55 grain ammo. Especially with the callup of so many National Guard units which tend to have the oldest equipment. Over time this should change as newer 62 grain compatible (read the Ammo Oracle to see the real deal about this issue) weapons are brought in and the older weapons are retired. Eventually 55 grain production will reduce to very low levels and the surplus will be mostly XM855. I don't have any idea of a timeline for that however.

Futuristic
Link Posted: 6/26/2005 5:41:35 PM EDT
Troy did a very good job in his post.

I have to add: Federal never sees this ammo. We have been assigned to support it, but it never sees the Federal plant in MN.



To some of the other posts here.... The extra "tar" is fine, just use solvent on a rag,(do NOT soak).
You have recieved Mega waterproofing. ::laughing:: It is harmless, but build up could cause symptoms like heavily laquered Wolf ammo.
Clean it off and continue on.

Split necks, fat lips and heavy dents should be discarded. I am not speaking in any official capacity, In this I'm just a shooter who would follow his own advice.

My 2 cents?
If you buy the PD ammo, simply inspect each round.
PD is NOT combat ammo... it should only be considered for practice. (This is in my own opinion)
Link Posted: 6/26/2005 6:11:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2005 6:13:29 PM EDT by infantryman]
just got a reply from a shooter on a different site, simmilar question. He has put 5,000 rds of XM193PD through his AR with NOT ONE malfunction. I feel better.

holly crap Fedgunner! 2000+ posts! you one posting MOFO!!!
Link Posted: 6/26/2005 6:40:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By infantryman:
just got a reply from a shooter on a different site, simmilar question. He has put 5,000 rds of XM193PD through his AR with NOT ONE malfunction. I feel better.

holly crap Fedgunner! 2000+ posts! you one posting MOFO!!!



These guys keep me hopping!
Link Posted: 6/30/2005 9:11:10 PM EDT
Just got back from Defensive Edge's two day "Tactical Carbine" course. Had no problem with the PD ammo. I probably culled out 20 rds from 1000 during mag loading.
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 4:36:11 PM EDT
Good info, Troy! Thanx, rest of you guys. With all the price pressure/out-of-stock situations, this thread is invaluable!!!

DON'T USE THE PLINKING AMMO WHEN THE WOLVES ARE AT THE DOOR--YOUR DOOR!

Blast the milk bottles, and beer cans with the plinkers
keep the good shit in mags on hand for the stinkers!



GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS AND KEEP THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA!




Link Posted: 7/1/2005 6:53:25 PM EDT
Here's the big question ...

Carbine training/classes cost a lot ... would you use XM193PD in a class, or would worries over malfunctions make it not worth the savings in ammo costs?

Link Posted: 7/2/2005 2:14:34 PM EDT
just bought a case of XM193PD, thanks for the heads up!
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:00:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 9:43:47 AM EDT
I understand "PD" stands for "Pull Down". Not sure what it means, though.
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 8:10:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 11:26:28 AM EDT
I got a 1000 of 855pd said it is 62 g has 05 marking looked at all they were very clean and no dents or any imperfections shot 300 with no problems.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 10:37:19 AM EDT
Does Federal say anything about this ammo at all?

I've got a bunch. Seems that even after I check this stuff out I always seem to find out about problems a few days after I buy something. Grrrr.

Anyhow, I bought about 4-5K rds in the past 2-4 months. Now I am a little leary about shooting the stuff. Sure not going to do slow fire for 5,000rds. Not my style.

Link Posted: 7/12/2005 3:30:18 AM EDT
As in my previous post- I just fired almost 1000rds at a two day carbine course. As long as you inspect each round I wouldn't be afraid to shoot the ammo. This is where a LULU comes in handy. before you load each round give it a once over doesn't take as long as you think.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 1:13:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Does Federal say anything about this ammo at all?


Well, that's a good question… and so we did the "legwork." This should go a long way toward de-confusing matters: The Straight Ammo Skinny.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 8:13:02 PM EDT
Thanks for info. At the DE tac. Carbine course I took two gents had trouble with the PD round. They needed a cleaning rod to pop it out and good to go. (lot 101 IIRC) Fedgunner was there.
I am planning to buy some older SS109 http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of__223.html so add $17 shipping $177. Is this a good deal?
I have bought Fed. American Eagle for $100 per 500 rds in 20 rd boxes. (after tax) Or is there a better source? Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 8:29:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2005 8:30:18 PM EDT by repub18]
PD simply means Bulk Packaging


Link Posted: 7/14/2005 7:13:25 AM EDT
I always thought PD meant "Possibly Defective".

We can make up our own names until someone from Federal actually shows up and tells us.
Link Posted: 7/14/2005 6:48:54 PM EDT
Okay ... I've acquired my first box of XM193PD and I am ... disappointed. I should have listened to the people here more carefully.

I'm more than 2/3 of the way through checking it all, round by round. I've found 351 rounds that look good enough that I'd be comfortable loading them in a magazine for a class or match. About the same amount have noticeable dings and dents in the cases, or bullets that are seated just a little too long or a little too short. Those are probably okay for pllinking.

Then I have a bag with about 75-100 rounds that I won't be firing. Here are some of the defects detected visually:

1. Torn, cracked, or "folded" case mouth
2. Other crack in case
3. Bullet loaded way, way too short or long based on position of cannelure with respect to case mouth and overall length
4. Severe dents

I won't be buying any more. The small price break is not worth it.

Link Posted: 7/15/2005 6:35:10 PM EDT
If you want a price break buy wolf...no, wait WOLF SUCKS
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 8:30:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DeanSpeir:
Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Does Federal say anything about this ammo at all?


Well, that's a good question… and so we did the "legwork." This should go a long way toward de-confusing matters: The Straight Ammo Skinny.





Matériel Designations...

The Straight Ammo Skinny
What does ATK's "XM" prefix and "PD" suffix actually mean?
There has been considerable confusion and rampant speculation across the Internet about the origins and quality of commercially available small arms ammunition designated XM193, XM855, XM855-PD, and XM118LR-PD, as examples.

Claims are being made that this ammunition ranges from "fully milspec," to rejects lots that failed Quality Control and Quality Assurance protocols. There are also various rumors about how this ammunition has found its way into the commercial sector.

As TGZ is dedicated to the debunking of rumors and correcting that which propagates along the "gunshop grapevine" (and its Internet equivalent, AR15.com), to obtain authoritative information on this issue, we recently contacted ATK and queried them about certain military small arms ammunition produced at their Lake City plant, and asked specifically about the significance of the "XM" prefix and "PD" suffix on Lake City small arms ammo currently being resold through commercial channels?

The response from ATK came from Jason Nash, Group Lead, Communications - ATK Ammunition and Related Products Group.
TGZ: Please explain the nomenclature (i.e., the "XM" prefix and the "PD" suffix), and also explain how XM193, XM855-PD, XM118LR-PD and similar Lake City / ATK ammunition differs from milspec (i.e., M193, M855, M118LR) ammunition, so we may present the correct information to our readers.
ATK: We've had several questions regarding the XM designation and following is our official statement regarding what the product is.

XM193 ammunition is 5.56mm contract overrun material. It may not meet all of the mil-spec requirements, however, it does meet all requirements of commercial ammunition for pressure, form, fit and function.

As far as the "PD" suffix, it simply denotes bulk packaging.
TGZ: Why is it that the XM ammo "may not meet all of the mil-spec requirements?" This seems to be the most common question on people's minds.
ATK: I don't know all the ins and outs of the mil-spec requirements, but like any other mass-produced product, there are often imperfections in either appearance or non-functional mechanics. As we all know, the military is very stringent in their requirements and for good reason. This being the case, it doesn't take much to fall outside of those parameters.
TGZ: Thank you very much. This should help put a stop to some of the more outlandish speculation and rumor-mongering.

Sources of Confusion...
Its prominent "For Training Use Only" marking has led to speculation that XM855PD is of suspect quality. However, starting with a tip from fellow TGZ Contributor Daniel Watters, this was unearthed:
From:
NAVMC 2667
MARINE CORPS DESK TOP DICTIONARY
(LOGISTICS)
(1984 EDITION)

TRAINING USE ONLY IS DEFINED AS AN AMMUNITION ITEM WHICH FUNCTIONS IN A MANNER CONTRARY TO ITS INTENDED DESIGN WITHOUT CONSTITUTING A HAZARD TO PERSONNEL AND/OR EQUIPMENT WHEN USED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SPECIFIED LIMITATIONS.And then there is this excerpt from Field Manual 23-65, Section 1-7.f, "Precautions" (1):

Do not fire small-arms ammunition graded and marked "For Training Use Only" over the heads of troops.
This strongly implies that such labeling is not limited to cosmetic imperfections, at least as respects .50 caliber ammo.
by Robert P. Firriolo, TGZ Contributing Editor.





Interesting info. Thanks.

Link Posted: 7/16/2005 7:14:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Note that ammo that is delivered to the military can no longer be surplussed as whole ammo, due to an Executive Order by Klinton in 1997, so as a rule, this ammo will never be available on the commercial market.
-Troy


Anyone know the EO # on this?
Link Posted: 7/16/2005 3:44:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 12:21:50 PM EDT
Given the quality ammo shortages, which would you rate higher?

XM193PD or Wolf Polymer Coated 55gr FMJ?
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 5:11:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:14:55 PM EDT

Today I helped a buddy sight in a new Bushy L/W with a TA-31 shot 150 rounds of the XM193PD today from Natchez we had one round that would not chamber in a Bushy 5.56mm L/W. He bought 5k this. I told to him buy a case gauge and check evey round for out of spec cartridges.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 2:11:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 2:07:25 AM EDT by Darkhellmutt]

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By txgp17:

Originally Posted By Troy:
Note that ammo that is delivered to the military can no longer be surplussed as whole ammo, due to an Executive Order by Klinton in 1997, so as a rule, this ammo will never be available on the commercial market.
-Troy


Anyone know the EO # on this?



I looked it up a couple years ago, but I didn't write it down. It's basically an EO that clarifies the implementation of the UN International Small Arms Trafficing treaty that Klinton signed on our behalf.

-Troy



Why don't we tell Our Senators, Congressmen, and President Bush especially, that this
Executive order needs to be rescinded, or nullified with a new Executive Order, since the
purpose of it seems to be to make "sheep" out of us.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 11:05:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rhino_:
3. Bullet loaded way, way too short or long based on position of cannelure with respect to case mouth and overall length



Wondering what the minimum acceptable cartridge length is for M193 spec'ed ammo. What do you consider acceptable for match vs. plinking vs. just plain unsafe?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 11:55:12 AM EDT
i'm on my second case of 2000 rounds....makes my M16 run like a scalded dog.

i love the stuff and will continue to buy....
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 7:38:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:13:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 5:19:50 PM EDT by M4-CQBR]
Thanks for the info Troy. . .

With this info in mind, it has got me wondering what Cabelas is thinking writing this as a description on the M855 they are selling:


Bulk Lake City Arsenal .223 SS109 Ammunition
Shoot the same ammunition that our troops abroad trust their lives to in these bulk-packaged .223 rounds. Manufactured in the USA by Lake City Arsenal, this overrun of ammunition is not remanufactured or below-spec rounds. The 62-grain, steel-core M855 Green Tip Penetrator is the same firepower supplied to our elite units, including the Navy SEALs. Stringent military standards ensure reliable, consistent performance for your target shooting and varmint hunting. Muzzle velocity: 3,070 feet-per-second.


Cabelas makes this ammo sound like it is grade 1 ammunition

M4-CQBR
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:23:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:51:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 8:57:32 PM EDT by steven1513]

Okay ... I've acquired my first box of XM193PD and I am ... disappointed.

Perhaps I'm not as picky as others. Out of 3,000 rounds I rejected only ONE with a folded neck. During a 5-day/3,000 round carbine course there were FOUR squibs; All four exited the barrel. And even this fast paced course allowed for handling of squibs.

That means 2,995 rounds worked fine; Dents, dings, boogers and all. I'll continue to use it as a training round.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:31:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplite:

Originally Posted By Futuristic:

Originally Posted By Docsprague:
So does that mean the goverment is still using 55gr. I thought they only used 62 gr 855. So why is LC still producing xm193?



There are still plenty of older rifles in service that need the 55 grain ammo. Especially with the callup of so many National Guard units which tend to have the oldest equipment. Over time this should change as newer 62 grain compatible (read the Ammo Oracle to see the real deal about this issue) weapons are brought in and the older weapons are retired. Eventually 55 grain production will reduce to very low levels and the surplus will be mostly XM855. I don't have any idea of a timeline for that however.

Futuristic



someone please kill this rumor. please show me a unit that is carrying these. Most NG units have m4s now.



Units in MO and AR still have rifles with the old twist. I've been issued M193 to shoot on a National Guard Base in AR (Ft. Chaffee). (I'm not in the NG though!!) Many of them get newer rifles when they deploy but their armories are filled with slower twist rifles. It's not a rumor. I also saw an Air Force unit with the old A1s a few years ago. Yes....triangle handguards and all!!!
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:22:01 PM EDT
So with the very limited availability of grade 2 what are we supposed to stock for SHTF?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:30:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 11:32:42 PM EDT by Shooter_Doug]
FWIW... I'm most of the way through a case of XM193PD I received two weeks ago. I checked each round before loading it onto a stripper clip. I rejected 9 because of crushed/split necks and about 30 more because the bullet was seated too deeply.

I did have one squib. It cleared the barrel but did not cycling the action.

HTH
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 3:25:33 PM EDT
PD means Propellent Deficient it's the only varible in the make up of the loaded round! They are rejected by weight by an automatic machine, which causes the dents and dings and bent cases. Weigh some and you will find they are all different, maybe not enough to cause a malfuntion but enough to be rejected. Imagine facing a foe in combat and getting a squib load with the projectile getting stuck in the barrel. Not Good!
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:41:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 3:42:50 AM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
just finished sorting through ~1000 XM193(PD) that i got from sportsmansguide.com before the summer showed, havent shot any (got lots of wolf too, and i used that first)

took me almost 3 hrs to sort through by hand (and load em into spare mags)
anyways, i ended up w/ ~60 rnds w/ noticible, small or minor dents on the casing;
~20 where the bullets were imbeded a tad deep in the case, several noticibly too much;
~10 where the bullet, it is tight, but the serrations on the bullets stick up a tad over the rim of the case
w/ exception to the ones that are too deeply embeded in the case, do yall (or mr.. Troy) think that its ok to plink with?


also got 14 rounds whrere there was a slight fissure/crack on the neck or misshaped necks (but all of the bullets were properly seated, and the casing sealed)--still dont think that i will shoot these

i also got 11 whose bullets were VERY loose to the extent that i pulled one of em from the casing--will have to discard these

thanks mr Troy for the tacked info!
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:34:42 AM EDT
ok! So....

With the limited availability of good .mil type ammo what should we stock for SHTF
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:51:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
ok! So....

With the limited availability of good .mil type ammo what should we stock for SHTF



How about some good .mil type ammo?

Outdoor Marksman has 29,000 rounds of Q3131A available.
Natchez has 35,000 rounds of XM193 on hand.
Widener's has been increasing their inventory of XM193, now with 157,000 rounds on hand.
Ammoman is back in stock with XM193.

And if you think these prices are a bit high, consider that WOLF 55gr and 62gr FMJ is now selling for $139/1000 delivered, WOLF 62gr JHP now $149/1000 delivered from Ammoman.

For prices and availability, updated daily, see the Ammo Price List.
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