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Posted: 10/31/2003 8:13:12 PM EDT
Have there been any tests on how the heavier (168+ grain) OTMs, AMAXes, etc perform in gel? Do they act like 75-77 grain OTMs, or just punch a clean hole?
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 9:24:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2003 9:24:22 AM EDT by Forest]
the 155gr AMAX's (otherwise known as 155gr TAP) are like a giant 77gr OTM (MUCH BETTER). They willl even work effecitvely into vehicles. There should be a post listing good .308 round at the top of this forum.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 11:37:44 AM EDT
Tatja and I have shot a SINGLE round of 155 AMAX into gelatin, but since it wasn't our normal, more comprehensive experiment, we chose not to post pictures. But, let me say this...the damage to the gel block was EXTREME, to say the least. Here's a photo of the fragments to help you understand [img]www.btammolabs.com/images/155Amax.jpg[/img] We might get around to doing something more with this round at a later date. Oh, the platform that we set the blocks on during tests was also destroyed by the explosive effects of this round. The 168 Amax is good, but not as good as the 155.
Link Posted: 11/1/2003 6:15:42 PM EDT
More experimentation would be great to see. I'm about to get an AR-10. (AR15.com 2003 SEBR).
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 6:40:36 AM EDT
Hey Brou, Any hints on how deep the throat of the wound channel was? Where did most of the fragments end up? What was the MV of that shot? If you'd prefer not to answer these questions, that is fine. Your posted picture speaks volumes.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 7:24:46 AM EDT
The neck was about 1.5", I believe. It's been a while. Most fragments were in the 6-8" range, with the largest chunk (it's about 35gr) out at about 13-14". I couldn't tell you the muzzle velocity, as I didn't record it. Rifle was a HK91 and the load was Hornady TAP. We'll need to create a larger mold before we play around with the 155 again. I'm pretty sure that some fragments were lost through the fissures (from the temporary cavity) in the sides of the block. We don't have that problem with 5.56 experiments.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 7:36:57 AM EDT
That bullet is simply the Hornady 155 AMAX, right? I'm thinking of switching to that for my precision rifle loads.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 7:37:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: Tatja and I have shot a SINGLE round of 155 AMAX into gelatin, but since it wasn't our normal, more comprehensive experiment, we chose not to post pictures. But, let me say this...the damage to the gel block was EXTREME, to say the least. Here's a photo of the fragments to help you understand [url]www.btammolabs.com/images/155Amax.jpg[/url] We might get around to doing something more with this round at a later date. Oh, the platform that we set the blocks on during tests was also destroyed by the explosive effects of this round. The 168 Amax is good, but not as good as the 155.
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OUCH! that's gonna leave a mark.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 7:43:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: That bullet is simply the Hornady 155 AMAX, right? I'm thinking of switching to that for my precision rifle loads.
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Correct.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 3:31:32 PM EDT
Brou, Ran into the same(bench) destructive effects using 25lb blocks while testing the Fed. 165 TRU and to a lesser degree the Fed 165gr Tactical load. Temp. Solution is a 20"x25" scrap of 1" marine plywood on top of the table for the Block to set on and spreading the force over a larger area. It seems the violent expansion of the block is most pointed and destructive to the bench at about the same place in the block where the TSC is largest in dia. I now have 4 holes in my bench from the same thing and have decided that 16ga steel will be the replacement covering come spring. Lemme know what block dimension you come up with. I'm having little luck. Keep safe! S-28
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 10:26:26 PM EDT
I can understand lots of expansion on a tactical round, but would you really expect a MATCH round to expand significantly? Accuracy being it's designed purpose as opposed to expansion like a hunting or tactical round. Any expansion being a bonus if being used for other than paper punching. As far as damage to a gelatin block, a round 3-4x as heavy and traveling as fast as a .223 round should be expected to transfer a lot more energy to the block and supporting stand.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 10:33:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PaDanby: I can understand lots of expansion on a tactical round, but would you really expect a MATCH round to expand significantly? Accuracy being it's designed purpose as opposed to expansion like a hunting or tactical round. Any expansion being a bonus if being used for other than paper punching.
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I'm trying to understand what you mean here... Are you saying that a "Match" round wouldn't expand or fragment? If so, what do you think the Amax is designed for? Straight from Hornady's website:
Every aspect of the A-MAX, from its Ultra-Low Drag tip to its special secant ogive design, was engineered to achieve the precise level of dynamic stability and accuracy needed to print the tightest groups ever recorded. Perfect balance, optimum stability and head-turning accuracy all combine to make the A-MAX the most advanced match bullets available. If you aren't shooting the AMAX bullet, you're not using one of the greatest competitive shooting tools available. A-MAX is a concept which is changing match bullet technology forever.
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Link Posted: 11/4/2003 6:15:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: That bullet is simply the Hornady 155 AMAX, right? I'm thinking of switching to that for my precision rifle loads.
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Just based on my personnal experience, I'd say that is a great idea. It is very accurate, and according to ev everything Brou, Tat and Troy have indicated, it is a top notch performer in gel. It also has enough BC to get out into the 850-900 yard neighborhood easily before going subsonic, and shoots flatter than any 168 grain bullet. It may not be the best round for long range work, but it will do. A few friends and I were ringing 18"x18" steel plates at 730 yards this past summer. Conditions that day were less than ideal to say the least. Winds were full value 15+ with gusts to 25, and the hardest part about the shot was trying to anticipate when a fresh gust would push the rifle off line. On a calmer day, we could have hit 100% easily.
Link Posted: 11/4/2003 10:48:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2003 10:52:59 PM EDT by Q-Man]
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By PaDanby: I can understand lots of expansion on a tactical round, but would you really expect a MATCH round to expand significantly? Accuracy being it's designed purpose as opposed to expansion like a hunting or tactical round. Any expansion being a bonus if being used for other than paper punching.
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I'm trying to understand what you mean here... Are you saying that a "Match" round wouldn't expand or fragment? If so, what do you think the Amax is designed for? Straight from Hornady's website:
Every aspect of the A-MAX, from its Ultra-Low Drag tip to its special secant ogive design, was engineered to achieve the precise level of dynamic stability and accuracy needed to print the tightest groups ever recorded. Perfect balance, optimum stability and head-turning accuracy all combine to make the A-MAX the most advanced match bullets available. If you aren't shooting the AMAX bullet, you're not using one of the greatest competitive shooting tools available. A-MAX is a concept which is changing match bullet technology forever.
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I think PaDanby is referring to boat-tail-hollow-point match bullets such as the Sierra MatchKing bullet or the Nosler J4 Competition bullet. These bullets are created for accuracy, and while they have a hollow-point, it is merely a result of the way they are constructed and not an attempt to make them expand well in “meat” targets. In reloading manuals there are usually warnings to not use match bullets for hunting as expansion is inconsistent. There may be some confusion as to what the Hornady A-Max bullet was designed for. Obviously it’s being used for match purposes because it is a very accurate bullet. However, is it designed with any notion of terminal effects such as the Nosler Ballistic Tip or the Hornady V-Max series of bullets?
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 2:54:12 AM EDT
I can understand lots of expansion on a tactical round, but would you really expect a MATCH round to expand significantly? Accuracy being it's designed purpose as opposed to expansion like a hunting or tactical round. Any expansion being a bonus if being used for other than paper punching.
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The BTHP match bullets you are speaking of don't expand. Nor does the hollow point allow the bullet to expand or fragment. The fragmentation occurs as a result of the bullet yawing sideways in gel/flesh with the stress forcing the jacket to fail, leading to the bullet fragmenting. These bullets were first developed to be accurate. It just so happened they also happened to be very destructive. One example would be the 75 gr Hornady BTHP match bullet that so many .223 users are fond of. The .308 match bullets will also fragment (the range is which they do so is limited though). They are also less impressive than the 155 gr Hornady AMAX loads. While the 155 gr AMAX isn't a typical "match" load, it does offers match like accuracy out to 500 or 600 yards. And obviously it offers some of the most impressive terminal performance I have seen as is readily apparent in the above photo posted by Brou. It seems the Hornady 155 gr AMAX is kinda hard to find right now so one may have to load their own if they want it. Or a pretty good alternative is the Federal/Black Hills/Winchester .308 150 gr loads that use the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet design. They offer similar performance to the AMAX. -CH
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 10:31:09 PM EDT
Has anyone tried loading these? I've got a box of 155gr .30 cal AMAX inbound. Gonna try them for deer hunting. Planning on loading some up in .308 and .30-06. Any load data would be gretly appreciated, and used with extreme caution(-10%, compare to manual), of course.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 10:45:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM: Has anyone tried loading these? I've got a box of 155gr .30 cal AMAX inbound. Gonna try them for deer hunting. Planning on loading some up in .308 and .30-06. Any load data would be gretly appreciated, and used with extreme caution(-10%, compare to manual), of course.
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Not advisable, unless you enjoy picking lead and jacket fragments out of the meat with your teeth.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 11:10:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 11:26:56 PM EDT by Tweak]
FWIW, Marty Fackler has wrote about the TE of the 168 SMK. It's highly variable based on year of manufacture. Apparently Sierra has changed the design several times. When I spoke to him a few years ago he recommended drilling out the HP to a larger diameter. I can't recall what size. He said that modification drastically improved the TE. E2A, the gel testing I have seen of the AMAX load showed NO neck at all. That impressed the hell out of me and is why I have been searching for it for so long. Finally did find some so now it's on to accuracy testing the 3 competitors, Game Kings, Ballistic Tips and AMAX using SMK as a control.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 11:27:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: Not advisable, unless you enjoy picking lead and jacket fragments out of the meat with your teeth.
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Nothing wrong with a little extra seasoning. [;)] many years ago, i was talking to a teacher of mine. He shot a deer, and coudln't find the bullet. entrance wound, extreme damage internally, but no exit wound, and no bullet. Puzzled the heck out of him. All he could remember about it was that it had a red tip. i have a hunch this may be it. I would rather pick through the meat then have no meat at all. My father nailed a 10 pointer with 3 12 Ga slugs. all in the heart/lung/vital area(confirmed by post-mortum autopsy)lol. Thing got away. They found the carcass a week later. The mount was ok, but the meat was spoiled.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 6:16:50 PM EDT
NAM, Not to disrespect anything these guys are saying but I'd say give it a try. My uncle shoots a .30-06 for deer but has a guy handload him 125 grain ballistic tips. They come out at about 3200 fps. He's been using that load for many years and he shoots 1 or more a year. I just skinned and quartered one he gave me. Nasty. But if you hit them in the main body, you're not picking lead out of the legs. The entrance was the size of a round ball somewhere between a golf ball and a tennis ball. It never came out but left a mark where it looked like it wanted to come out on the other side. And it was going from the front left shoulder angling back to the back right of the rib cage. But once that bullet it goes in, it just plays havoc. They die very quickly with almost any kind of a body hit. Obviosly the closer to the front the better. His oldest son uses a .243 with the 80 grain bullet with much to the same effect. Sorry Brou, I know you know alot more than me about this bullet stuff but if it was me, I'd use it on deer. By the way I didn't get a shot on one with my ar. I'm using the 75 grain bthp hornady's. I saw one but couldn't see if it had horns. I was hunting in a special antlerless season. I'm going back though with it in regular season. And what's brown is down. I'll tell you how the 75's do.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 6:28:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JJREA: Not to disrespect anything these guys are saying but I'd say give it a try. [snip] Sorry Brou, I know you know alot more than me about this bullet stuff but if it was me, I'd use it on deer.
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I'm not offended in the least. I'm sure it does great putting deer down quickly. I just don't like Venison with a side of lead/copper/polymer surprise. If you can always hit them in a spot where that's not a problem, then that's awesome.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 6:31:14 PM EDT
If it's brown it's down. Absolutely right. I never was one of those hunters who sits and waits forever to find the biggest buck, then use the least damaging round so no meat or mount is damaged. I am a hunter. I am there for meat. I don't care how big or small it is. If it's got spots, i may let it pass. Otherwise, if it's brown it's down. And down on the first shot. I'd rather have a clean kill and pick out the lead, then have a suffering wounded deer and an intact mount. I am out to keep a deer and eat it. The quicker the kill, better in my book. I hope i didn't offend anyone, and no offense was taken from anyone.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 6:01:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM: Has anyone tried loading these?
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Yes, I have had great success in loading 155 Amax bullets. Probably one of the best powders to use is VARGET. In my particular gun, I shoot 46.8 grains and the bullet is seated long, 2.915 COL. The best primer I have found so far is the CCI BR-2. I have tried CCI 250s as well, and they do just fine with 46.5 grains of powder. Velocity ~ 2800 fps in a 20" barrel. Another powder that I recently tested is BL-C(2). It actually shot better groups than VARGET but only at lower charges. Velocity is estimated to be slower as well. This powder meters very well compared to VARGET though. VARGET loads accuracy - about .6 inches @ 100 yards. BL-C(2) loads accuracy - about .4 inches @ 100 yds. Your mileage may vary. I havent finished BL-C(2) load development yet.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 7:12:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2003 7:15:36 AM EDT by Phila-PD]
The most devastating destructive bullet I have ever seen and used was the Remington Bronze Point in .308 Diameter 150grs. Even the Remington web-site states the explosive expansion of this bullet and I have never had a Deer (OVER 20 Does and 14 Bucks in 18 years) move from the spot were I shot them if I did my part with the shot. When field dressing the deer the wound track is incredible, most with exit wounds the size of 2" by 3"inches. Loaded ammunition sells for $14.00 to $16.00 a box in .308 or 30-06 and both my guns print 1.00" to 1.25" inch groups at 100 meters all day long. Try one box shoot some in soaked news print or some mellons and you will know what Im talking about.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 9:10:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf:
Originally Posted By NAM: Has anyone tried loading these?
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Yes, I have had great success in loading 155 Amax bullets. Probably one of the best powders to use is VARGET. In my particular gun, I shoot 46.8 grains and the bullet is seated long, 2.915 COL. The best primer I have found so far is the CCI BR-2. I have tried CCI 250s as well, and they do just fine with 46.5 grains of powder. Velocity ~ 2800 fps in a 20" barrel. Another powder that I recently tested is BL-C(2). It actually shot better groups than VARGET but only at lower charges. Velocity is estimated to be slower as well. This powder meters very well compared to VARGET though. VARGET loads accuracy - about .6 inches @ 100 yards. BL-C(2) loads accuracy - about .4 inches @ 100 yds. Your mileage may vary. I havent finished BL-C(2) load development yet.
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What brass are you using? and what's your rifle?
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 2:14:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tweak: FWIW, Marty Fackler has wrote about the TE of the 168 SMK. It's highly variable based on year of manufacture. Apparently Sierra has changed the design several times. When I spoke to him a few years ago he recommended drilling out the HP to a larger diameter. I can't recall what size. He said that modification drastically improved the TE. E2A, the gel testing I have seen of the AMAX load showed NO neck at all. That impressed the hell out of me and is why I have been searching for it for so long. Finally did find some so now it's on to accuracy testing the 3 competitors, Game Kings, Ballistic Tips and AMAX using SMK as a control.
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Right on with that info. I have heard Dr. Fackler speak on this very subject regarding the SMK and he showed the differences the small "improvements" made by Sierra in the SMK. More accurate, less lethal. Also- FWIW- informal testing in my area has shown the 168 AMAX has been tending to group better than SMK, 155 AMAX, and other loads in the tested weapons. Not to say it worked best in all, but in did in quite a few. The differences in some cases were quite minor. Your mileage may vary.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 4:40:08 PM EDT
NAM, Don't all deer have spots? Just kidding. Most of the deer I've shot are yearling does. They taste good. Fawns taste even better. I've got one small buck too. lets see, 2 fawns, 3 yearling does, and 1 buck (forker). That's my list if I'm not forgetting any. I don't really care about horns either. My wife and I both looooove venison. Good hunting to ya!!
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 7:45:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By Torf:
Originally Posted By NAM: Has anyone tried loading these?
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Yes, I have had great success in loading 155 Amax bullets. Probably one of the best powders to use is VARGET. In my particular gun, I shoot 46.8 grains and the bullet is seated long, 2.915 COL. The best primer I have found so far is the CCI BR-2. I have tried CCI 250s as well, and they do just fine with 46.5 grains of powder. Velocity ~ 2800 fps in a 20" barrel. Another powder that I recently tested is BL-C(2). It actually shot better groups than VARGET but only at lower charges. Velocity is estimated to be slower as well. This powder meters very well compared to VARGET though. VARGET loads accuracy - about .6 inches @ 100 yards. BL-C(2) loads accuracy - about .4 inches @ 100 yds. Your mileage may vary. I havent finished BL-C(2) load development yet.
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What brass are you using? and what's your rifle?
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The rifle is a Remington 700 LTR (20" barrel), and I was loading these in Remington brass. I have used both FL sized and NK sized brass, and without a doubt, the neck sized brass shot the best. Here's my Varget load:
03D6-308WIN ----------- Bullet: 155 Grain Hornady AMAX Brass: Remington (Neck sized) Primer: CCI-BR(2) Powder: VARGET - 46.8 grains COL: 2.915" MV: 2750-2800 FPS
Here's my best BL-C(2) load:
03D6-308WIN ----------- Bullet: 155 Grain Hornady AMAX Brass: Remington (Neck sized) Primer: CCI-BR(2) Powder: BL-C(2) - 46.9 grains COL: 2.915"
As I said, BL-C(2) loads aren't fully developed. I have to continue testing loads from 46.0 - 47.2 grains. Higher charges were not accurate. I also don't have a velocity estimate for them.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:49:21 PM EDT
Unfortunately, the 168 gr AMAX is a different design from the 155 gr AMAX. The 168 gr exhibits none of the TE seen in the 155 gr. version. brou, Did ya'll only fire one round cuz that's all you had? I've got a source up here if you're interested.
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