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Posted: 10/31/2003 12:57:25 PM EDT
The price is good, too good maybe? If anyone with experience with it could warn me off or give me a green light, it would be much appreciated.

Nuts{WoC}
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 1:31:40 PM EDT
If Botach is still selling for $189/1200rds, with shipping, buy buy buy. Made in same factory as Q3131A.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 4:07:11 PM EDT
I would buy if Botach still has them in stock. IMI are top shelve. Last month I fired 1k rounds of IMI M193 that was purchased in 1993 through Hansen cartridge co. Every single round went bang and no FTF or FTE! You will be pleased.
Link Posted: 10/31/2003 5:29:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2003 5:31:55 PM EDT by out4trout]
It's great stuff. Identical to Winchester Q3131A (IMI makes mfgs. Q3131A for Win.) I've shot several thousand rounds from both my Pre-ban AR15 and my Robinson Armament M96 Recon Carbine. I've never had a single problem in either rifle. I also like the fact that they come 30 rnds in a box instead of 20 like Q3131A or XM193, makes for easy magazine loading. Some people have knocked Botach due to shipping problems or some other kind of communication problems. Personally I've ordered from them 8 times in the last 2 years and never had a problem of any kind. Orders placed on Mondays have always arrived by Friday. With their sale still going on at $189 for 1200 rnds with free shipping it is a very good deal. That works out to $157.50 per 1000 rnds delivered to your door. I know I'm sounding like a salesman but I'm not just a guy who is very satisfied with their products and their service. Best of Luck to You
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 4:23:07 PM EDT
Where can I order some? [:D]
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 6:13:46 PM EDT
Where can I order some?
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Ditto. I searched Botach's site, and couldn't find the ammo...
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 6:28:22 PM EDT
[url]http://www.botach.com/Ammunition.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 10:09:19 PM EDT
I just ordered 1200 rds of 55 gr. for $189 last Sunday. I'll have to let you know how it fires.
Link Posted: 11/2/2003 10:24:36 PM EDT
I'd be buying it if I didn't have to pay tax
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 12:40:36 AM EDT
Thanks for the reminder. I just placed another order with them. As indicated above, Botech Tactical has always shipped promptly and the ammo is top shelf. Don't even get this confused with other posts about supplies/parts for AR15's. There is a form that needs to be filled out, but, I have had numerous great experiences with their response and with shooting their ammunition products. See [URL]www.ammo-oracle.com[/URL] if you need more info on the product.
Link Posted: 11/3/2003 12:42:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 060362: If Botach is still selling for $189/1200rds, with shipping, buy buy buy. Made in same factory as Q3131A.
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SHIPPED!!!! This has got to be the best deal in ammo!
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 1:12:13 PM EDT
Is this ammo available to anyone? There isn't any reference to ammunition on their home page, and even searching for "ammunition" doesn't bring it up. I looked at the form you have to fill out, it doesn't say it's for government only, but the first line asks: "Bill To: Dept/Agency", makes it sound like its for government sales.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 2:20:19 PM EDT
Yes can anyone buy these or do we have to be police or Goverment?
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 2:56:03 PM EDT
Guys, this ammo is available to anyone who can legally purchase ammo (age and local requirements.) Make sure you use the link that was posted by "frisco" [url]www.botach.com/Ammunition.htm[/url] Make sure that you fax the ammo form and a copy of your DL otherwise Botach will not ship the ammo. BTW, I love this stuff and just bought another 2400 rds. Now that I'm thinking about it I may buy another case....... hope this helps, paul
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 4:00:57 PM EDT
Pics of the IMI: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17850[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17851[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17852[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17853[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17854[/img]
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 5:31:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2003 5:36:15 PM EDT by Wingman26]
I love the price, but the photo seems to show [b]crimped primers![/b] [pissed]
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 6:58:52 PM EDT
Hey...guys...the ammunition sucks. Dont order any more of it. Its horrible. Sucks. Crap. Just means more for me...3600 rounds...and its the best shit I've shot so far.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:03:21 AM EDT
I never had a single problem with IMI ammo. People might have strong opinions about Botach, but IMI ammo is the cats mow.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 9:14:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wingman26: I love the price, but the photo seems to show [b]crimped primers![/b] [pissed]
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Sucks if you're a reloader I guess. However, I LOVE crimped primers and I am glad they have it. Any ammunition you plan to use for "serious" use should have crimped primers.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 1:52:52 PM EDT
Yep, been reloading for over 30 years, rolling my own match ammo and practice ammo. For defensive ammo it is recommended to use factory ammo, if you have to defend yourself in court, some prosecutors will say that regular ammo wasn't deadly enough, he had to make his own more deadly! I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.[usa]
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 3:18:03 PM EDT
Of course the primers are crimped, this is service ammunition. Ammunition is one time use anyway. If you need to [i]custom load[/i] ammunition for match use start with new, primed cases (no Hazmat fee) and sell the fired cases to folks who'd rather clean, size, etc. than shoot. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 3:34:19 PM EDT
Wingman is so right on this. Even selecting special ammo for your defense is considered sometimes as a planned cause. I went through this with my CC class. They sited a guy that used +p+ ammo in his 9mm. They sited that "he planned on killing the person if he shot them, not wound or disable." He got 10 years for it.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 8:27:20 PM EDT
{Even selecting special ammo for your defense is considered sometimes as a planned cause. I went through this with my CC class. They sited a guy that used +p+ ammo in his 9mm. They sited that "he planned on killing the person if he shot them, not wound or disable." He got 10 years for it.} Never heard of anything like the above ever happening, if your justified in using deadly force it does not matter what commercially manufactured legally purchased ammunition its loaded with. We dont shoot in self defense to wound or disable we shoot to stop the threat ASAP. What would be the difference if I shot a badguy 5 times with a standard pressure load or shot him once with a +P+ load, none...the B/G is still shot, I still discharged my weapon and the D/A will still investigate my actions.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 8:48:38 PM EDT
In a perfect world nobody would ever have any problems with self defense shootings, unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, some prosecutors will try to turn a self defense shooting into a murder, it happens, and in those situations everything you do will be scrutinized with the worst intentions, had a trigger job on your defensive weapon? Some prosecutors will try to turn that against you, got the wrong ammo? You must have been planning to kill somebody, otherwise why would you modify your firearm or use that special "extra deadly" ammo, or they will call it "dum-dums", trying to inflame a jury. It happens to law enforcement officers, and it happens to private citizens, a lot of it is up to the prosecutor, and there are some that are so anti-gun they will try to prosecute you for defending yourself. As a Deputy Sheriff I was never involved in a shooting, but we had a DA that didn't try to frame people in shootings either, some other locations aren't that lucky.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 8:14:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chuck: Of course the primers are crimped, this is service ammunition. Ammunition is one time use anyway. If you need to [i]custom load[/i] ammunition for match use start with new, primed cases (no Hazmat fee) and sell the fired cases to folks who'd rather clean, size, etc. than shoot. -- Chuck
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Got a source for NEW PRIMED cases? Preferably military (Lake City) quality cases with extra webbing, etc.? I can't find them.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 2:39:39 PM EDT
2400 rds delivered across the country in 7 days. One case was headstamped TZZ 01, the other IMI 02. Works fine.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 7:54:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bsbg: 2400 rds delivered across the country in 7 days. One case was headstamped TZZ 01, the other IMI 02. Works fine.
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I have seen brass headstamped TZZ, what exactly is TZZ? Is it just another name for IMI?
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 10:35:56 AM EDT
My son and I have used Q3131A and had a perfect record. Love that stuff. This sounds like a great buy with IMI QC, and 30 rd boxes, thanks all!
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 12:33:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wingman26:
Originally Posted By bsbg: 2400 rds delivered across the country in 7 days. One case was headstamped TZZ 01, the other IMI 02. Works fine.
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I have seen brass headstamped TZZ, what exactly is TZZ? Is it just another name for IMI?
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Everything that you'll want to know.... [url]http://www.afte.org/ExamResources/headstamps/headstampsK.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 9:07:54 AM EDT
Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 9:41:56 AM EDT
Thanks PDM! I put that one in my favorites section.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:14:31 PM EDT
Quick question: Is Botach M193 the same thing as Q3131A? I know that sometimes two companies manufacturing in the same factory can have different tolerances, which can result in two totally different products. Has anyone shot Q3131A and Botach back to back?
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 1:43:12 PM EDT
GoldtopDude, "Botach" is an online store that is selling IMI M193. Winchester's Q3131A is made by IMI, and many speculate it's the same as IMI M193... I'll be getting some IMI M193 (from BotachTactical.com) in a few days, and will compare it head-to-head with the "Q3131A" loads.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 2:09:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RussB: GoldtopDude, "Botach" is an online store that is selling IMI M193. Winchester's Q3131A is made by IMI, and many speculate it's the same as IMI M193... I'll be getting some IMI M193 (from BotachTactical.com) in a few days, and will compare it head-to-head with the "Q3131A" loads.
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I'll be really intersted in the results of your comparison.
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 5:58:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wingman26:
Originally Posted By RussB: GoldtopDude, "Botach" is an online store that is selling IMI M193. Winchester's Q3131A is made by IMI, and many speculate it's the same as IMI M193... I'll be getting some IMI M193 (from BotachTactical.com) in a few days, and will compare it head-to-head with the "Q3131A" loads.
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I'll be really intersted in the results of your comparison.
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Me too, RussB is the man. [:)] His velocity results are the ones referenced in all of the ammunition review threads.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 5:07:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RussB: GoldtopDude, "Botach" is an online store that is selling IMI M193. Winchester's Q3131A is made by IMI, and many speculate it's the same as IMI M193... I'll be getting some IMI M193 (from BotachTactical.com) in a few days, and will compare it head-to-head with the "Q3131A" loads.
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Thanks man!
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 4:14:00 AM EDT
Ive shot both, My " arm meter " says they are the same. [;)]
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 6:12:33 PM EDT
www.proload.com has PNP for $ 149.50/1000 which shoots beautifully in my Colt's. they are fast and honest...they also have Win Q3131 in stock. They do charge actual freight but no add ons like most everybody else.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 3:41:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2003 3:42:02 AM EDT by Corvette]
Greetings, Can those of you who buy IMI ammo explain to me why you would buy ammo made in Israel, the country that sunk our USS Liberty and continues to conduct more covert operations against the intelligence sections of our government than any other nation, when Federal/Lake City XM193 ammo is so readily available and similarly priced? Corvette
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:21:12 AM EDT
Corvette, Take your anti-semitic, pollitically motivated bullshit somewhere else. IBTL!
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:22:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corvette: Greetings, Can those of you who buy IMI ammo explain to me why you would buy ammo made in Israel, the country that sunk our USS Liberty and continues to conduct more covert operations against the intelligence sections of our government than any other nation, when Federal/Lake City XM193 ammo is so readily available and similarly priced? Corvette
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Surly you jest. Our tax dollars (in the form of aid) probably paid for the manufactuer of the ammo in the first place. Secondly, if you want to discuss the topic, start your own. Don't hijack this thread.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:37:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RussB: Corvette, Take your anti-semitic, pollitically motivated bullshit somewhere else. IBTL!
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Same here! Hey RussB, I'm still hoping for your testing Q vs B.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 5:53:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JusDfacts: www.proload.com has PNP for $ 149.50/1000 which shoots beautifully in my Colt's. ....
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The PNP is decent ammo, but not loaded anywhere near M193 spec velocity.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 3:50:16 PM EDT
Even though this is a thread about IMI ammo, here's what I got, PMP vs. M193... Federal/XM193 – 3094fps 39fps Win/Q3131A – 3079fps 13fps PMP – 2972fps 100fps
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 4:49:16 PM EDT
I ordered some M855 from Botach a couple of weeks ago. I received it in about 1 wk with no hassles. I've posted a pic of the results in my "No more cheap ammo" thread, but to me the most important result was malfunctions in any of the shots fired. Haven't tried IMI M193 yet.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 3:16:57 PM EDT
A couple of weeks ago? Funny, I did the same thing. I ordered 1200rds on 11-3. Saw the little "disclaimer form" last week so I filled it out, signed it, and ordered another 1200 rds. After three telephone calls (with no return) and two e-mails I was told they did'nt recieve any of my orders. That's really odd since my credit card was charged for it all. Botach must have gotten just the parts of my orders that had my credit card #'s on them. I went with Botach instead of Ammoman because of the difference in price. I have now just realized I've been sitting on my thumb waiting for an ammo shipment for the past two weeks for nothing. One of my good friends--who has never shot a rifle before--has been waiting for this ammo as well. I have to contact my credit card company tomarrow and get the charges reversed. (Ya, they'll like that.) And on top of it all this entire situation makes me look like a fool who got "taken" in front of my friends. All to save $30. What a deal. Well, I was warned.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 4:35:23 PM EDT
[:(!]
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 4:38:05 PM EDT
How my order from Botach went... On 11-3, I used the "live help" feature to contact a Botach salesman. I sent them a message via the web-based form, and was called via telephone within 2 minutes by a Botach salesman. I made arrangments to e-mail Botach a copy of their "disclaimer/order form", along with a copy of my driver's license. The salesman gave me his (company-based) e-mail address to send it all to... As of 11-5, I had not received any delivery confirmation/tracking number, so I sent the (same) Botach salesman an e-mail, and asked, "what's up" with my order... On 11-6, I received an order confirmation, along with the UPS tracking number. Botach had not processed the order until 11-6... On 11-13, The package was delivered! All in all, it took me more time to type all this out, than it did to order and follow-up with Botach. I would order from them again. It's actually about $42.50 cheaper than ammoman's Q3131A or XM193...($200 per thousand vs. $157.50 per thousand [$189/1200])
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 4:48:02 PM EDT
Hey RussB, Have you had time to compare Q vs B? Is it the same product?
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 7:41:19 PM EDT
So what you are saying is that the compamy processed your order THREE DAYS after you made it? So are all of Botach's customers supposed to call them back up to verify their order? I called them THREE times (leaving my name/#). Never a return call. TWO e-mails. Never a return e-mail. I had to sit in front of my damn computer for 15 min waiting for their "live help" associate to get to me. When I asked about my orders they wanted to know my order #. "You tell me Botach! I have been trying to find that out for two weeks!" So I'm supposed to hold their hand, eh? Sure thing. Just as soon as they put me on their payroll. I can't speak for anyone else. But between the pain in my ass and the time spent babysitting I'll pay the extra.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 7:55:38 PM EDT
newbe, my advise would be to just order your ammo and relax. Then sit back and wait for 3-7 days like everybody else. You seem to be killing yourself to "keep taps" on your order too much. How many other replys do you read that had simliar problems? Your working way too hard.
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