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Posted: 10/24/2003 11:08:36 AM EDT
.223 with the 69 grain BTHP?

My Department has had atleast two (that I am aware of . . . one that reported such instances and the one that I experienced) instances where the bullet is being set back into the case by chambering. One time to the point that it fell into the case and allowed powder to spill out into the action.

With mine I had to pop a wounded deer and when clearing the chamber, I noticed that the bullet had moved approximately 1/10th of an inch back into the casing.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 11:42:19 AM EDT
I've had consistancy issues with it - (every 5th round being 100fps off from the rest of the group) but that is about it.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:04:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2003 12:08:48 PM EDT by blikbok]
I had this problem a few years ago and I likely still have the set-back rounds in my box to be pulled and deactivated when I get the time. Every round in the five I tried jammed *and* set back. I'm not sure were are talking about the exact same ammo. The Fed GM I tried did not have a crimp at the case neck. Were the loads in question crimped?
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:29:19 PM EDT
For the price you pay for them, they ought to be freaking magic bullets!
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 6:59:06 PM EDT
blikbok, These are the GM223M loads, and no, there is no visible crimp. I am considering running all my barracks rounds through my Lee Factory Crimp die to solve the set back problems.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 7:15:28 PM EDT
they are pricey, aint they? I've never tried them yet because of that. Sounds like there is no cannelure. Am I correct? Lot of the guys on here say you need the cannelure because of how an ar slams the rounds into the chamber with more than a gentle little push. That's just my 2 cents though.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 11:40:15 AM EDT
None of the Sierra Bullets have a cannelure. Who was the dumbass in your dept that specified you should all use non cannelured bullets in a semi auto?
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 1:58:35 PM EDT
DevL -- I wish I'd said that! [;)] -- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 12:26:41 AM EDT
The federal 223 Gold Medal Round is a Match Round built with one criteria in mind-Accuracy. It does not have a crimp neither is it a cannelured Bullet. Your Police dept. should never have authorized that Round for Duty. It is a big Mistake . It has no Practical advantages over a regfular M193, which ia a excellent Bullet for Police Work.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 5:29:14 PM EDT
devl, you sure got an edge about you. you know what though, maybe it's good. if you're right, you're right, but golly. Anyways let me ask you this, if you buy any of the heavier black hills stuff do they all have a cannelure? I noticed that the 68 grain hornady bullet did. does that mean the 75 one does too? or the 77 grain. if what you said is true than the 69 and 77 don't have it, right? i'm talking just the way black hills loads it. because i have some hornady loaded 75 and it didn't seem like it had a cannelure. I'll have to look at it closer. confused jj
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 9:25:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 10:34:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2003 10:36:22 PM EDT by DevL]
75 grain Hornady: no cannelure on mine 77 grain Sierra: no cannelure 77 grain Nosler: not usually but they are on the MK262 loaded bullet from Black Hills. Sierra would not put a cannelure on their match bullets when it was requested. Troy is right on. I know several people who use a bullet crimper and have good results. My dad used to do it on his semi auto loads. PS: Sorry if my bluntness offends you.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 11:40:54 PM EDT
Could have saved a lot of trouble. [img]http://winchester.com/bullet_images/rifle_cutaways/small/sppp.jpg[/img] Same bullet specified by CHP, has reliable gel results, I believe they call their loading by the .mil numbering system, Qsomething. Also has a cannelure to prevent bullet set back and throwing the bullet into the leade during chambering.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 6:43:02 AM EDT
DEVL, no offense taken. I'll just make sure I don't ask any stupid questions. So here I go anyways. It's strange about the cannelure the my black hill blue box 68 bthp, which is a hornady bullet if I'm not mistaken, definitely has a cannelure on it. But not the 75's I got or you. So what the heck? Maybe I'll have to call black hills and have them specify which of their loads have it and which don't. And Hornady too. Devl, you've been shooting the heavys all this time with no cannelure? I take it you don't use them as your go to round for self defense? Yet they have the best fragmenting, what a quandry. Do I have this correct?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 8:10:15 AM EDT
That is correct. I dont use factory 75's. If I want to use 75's I could ask Brouhaha to whip up some crimped handloads in his progressive loader. I sold my old single stage reloading gear so I cant load my own and just use M193 at the moment. I am paitiently waiting for Black Hills to produce their 77 grain MK 262 load and mail it. It is the gold standard for ammo at the moment. The only thing it does not have is a sealed neck because of accuracy concernes and I dont plan to store my ammo underwater.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 10:03:14 AM EDT
I see. Don't you find it odd that the 68's have a cannelure?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 12:49:07 PM EDT
But thats a good thing AND they have a shorter neck before yawing/fragmenting than 69 grain Sierra bullets. Most people find the 69 grain to be slightly more accurate however.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 6:21:35 AM EDT
DEVL, I understand now that the cannulure is a good idea. You've helped raise my level of what good ammo is. Only problem is the blue box 68 shoots horrible in my rifle. Maybe I'll try the red. If it has a cannelure. like I said when I get a minute I'm going to find out from black hills which ones have one and which ones don't. I don't know if it was a fluke or not. What is this about having a shorter neck before yawing? does that mean it yaws quicker than the 75's? I know that if you look at a profile of the 68 it doesn't look alot longer than Hornady's 52 and the 75 looks super long compared to it. So is that what you mean? It yaws quicker?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 9:48:21 AM EDT
Take a trip to tacticalforums.com and go to the terminal ballistics forum and do a search there on 68 grain and 69 grain ammo. You will find the results on gelatin tests on 68 grain and 69 grain ammo with detailed results. The 68 grain ammo yaws/fragments in a shorter distance than 69 grain bullets. A lot of people seem to have accuracy issues with 68 grain Hornady bullets for some reason from what I hear. Im sorry I cant produce the test results but I am too lazy to look it up for you and that is a great resource to check for testing of specific rounds.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 11:56:32 AM EDT
Ooooh good, another good website. Thank you. I appreciate it. I haven't been on there yet. I think I've heard of it before but I didn't know it had ballistic stuff on it. Have you ever shot the 68 grainers? To what success?
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 8:44:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2003 5:05:46 PM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By JJREA: I think I've heard of it before but I didn't know it had ballistic stuff on it.
View Quote
Dr Roberts is one of the moderators for the Terminal Ballistics forum.
Have you ever shot the 68 grainers? To what success?
View Quote
I have - my rifles love them better than the 69gr SMK's from Federal. Great ammo to bring to a nightime carbine course if you have a post ban carbine.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 11:18:21 AM EDT
FOREST, Gander mountain all of sudden started carrying them and I picked one up. It was the first time I saw a .223 bullet over 62 grains there. It was the black hills blue box. I was excited until I shot them. They grouped the worse out of any that I've tested for accuracy. I may try the red box to see if there's a difference, but like devl said some ar's don't like them. I don't know what a nighttime carbine course is and I believe mine is a pre ban. Explain?
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 3:27:24 PM EDT
He means it has low flash signature for taking a carbine class dedicated to low light use so you dont blind yourself.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 5:08:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2003 5:09:49 PM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By DevL: He means it has low flash signature for taking a carbine class dedicated to low light use so you dont blind yourself.
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Exactly. Some of the 'tactical' carbien courses are held at night (at least partially) so you can train in low light techniques. The low flash of the Black Hills is very nice for these kind of courses (or if you are an LEO working the night shift). Sorry to hear your rifle doesn't like the 68gr OTM - nice & inexpensive. Black Hills also makes a 69gr SMK load; it should also be low flash but IIRC costs $5+ more per box of 50.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 8:50:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2003 8:50:52 PM EDT by Scotter260]
Had the exact thing happen (same ammo) to me after chambering a round before doing a walk around of a local anhydrous ammonia storage area that's had some activity lately. (Good excuse to get my rifle out.) When done with my stroll I ejected the round and found that the bullet was set back in the case. Can't remember exactly how far but 1/8 of an inch isn't unreasonable.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 11:30:18 AM EDT
THANKS DEVL, about the info on night time carbine course. also for the website. tacticalforums. yet I couldn't find the place where fragmentation of the 68's was talked about. I didn't have alot of time but what's the name of the topic?
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 11:33:12 AM EDT
also thank you forest. they work good in your ar? did you notice that the blue box has a cannelure? what about the others. scotter, guess you need to push for a bullet with a cannelure, ha? You would think black hills knows that alot of their customers shoot ar's and would want the cannelure, no?
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 5:03:24 PM EDT
Have you tried Federal's 62 gr TRU (Tactical Rifle Urban)? I did a carbine course with a Colt 1/9 and had great results. Just to muddy the waters a bit more.
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 7:12:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JJREA: also thank you forest. they work good in your ar?
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Yes - they worked very well (better than the 69gr SMK as loaded by Federal).
did you notice that the blue box has a cannelure?
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I did not check. I will look next time I have a chance. I burned up the last of my 68gr at a course I took this summer (all I have left is some Black Hills Blue Box 77gr SMK and 75gr Hornady).
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 9:15:33 PM EDT
Topic Title: Black Hills 68gr and 69gr .223 rounds Ignore the velocity difference I noted in that thread on Red Box vs Blue box. Black Hills has stated it was an over pressure on one lot and under on another. Brouhaha is supposed to have some more ammo coming from Black Hills as we sent in the offending batches for further testing. I am unsure if he has recieved any ammo yet. We have been waiting for months and when I mentioned that on a thread over at tactical forums the company President said it would be taken care of and we would get our ammo. I am sure we will figure out some way to test it and post on it when it comes in.
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