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Posted: 10/21/2003 4:00:53 PM EDT
At a recent gun show i was able to purchase a 5 round pckage of ExtremeShock Explosive entry High Velocity .223 rounds. At $2.60 a round i was wondering if anyone had prior experiance with them before i decided to use them in my AR. They claim to be made of a composite material known as Tungsten-NyTillium and also claim to transfer far more energy then the average hollowpoint. Im looking for info on how well the feed in most ARs due to there LARGE hollow point opening and also first hand experiance from anyone who has used them before. They look interesting and sound amazeing but again i want info before i shoot them. Are they all hype or do they work ????

Thanks,
Rob
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:43:24 PM EDT
You should have posted this question BEFORE you wasted your money.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:51:38 PM EDT
LOL if i wasted my money please tell me how and why they are bad. I wasn't looking for anyone to tell me i wasted my cash, i was looking for positives and negatives to these rounds, thats part of the reason i only bought 5 rounds. Are they any good and if not, why are they the suck ??????? Please add to your post!!!!
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:02:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 5:06:25 PM EDT by Zhukov]
Please read the FAQ's tacked to the top of the page: [url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com[/url] You might also read some of the articles by Dr. Fackler tacked up there to gain an understanding of what makes an effective round. The ammo oracle touches on this a little bit. In summary though: There is no magic bullet, and your SuperHighVelocityUltraExpandingMaximumEnergyT­ransferExplosiveThisAndThat is more slick marketing thsn snything else. [Edited to correct link and to add:] I hope you bought enough to practice with too and ensure reliability. That, and I hope you won't miss under duress with the leftovers from your range session... (Sorry to be a smartass)
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:26:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 5:28:25 PM EDT by brouhaha]
[img]http://www.btammolabs.com/images/ESammo.jpg[/img] Here's one of the biggest problems. The "operator" on the left appears to be saying: "Stop! Don't shoot! I could only afford 5 rounds of this über-cool, overly-priced mall-ninja ammo!" While the other 2 "operators" appear to be saying: "Yo! Ya gots ta show me how to hold this here gun...I should cant it to the side, right G?" [;D] It's just marketing hype. If you feel like donating some to me, I might consider wasting some of my money shooting it into gel, but I'd rather not. The gel is too pricey to use on something like this.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:38:21 PM EDT
I wish someone would take that marketing firm's guy out back and beat some taste into him. Same guy that does Blackhawk's catalogs and the fake KAC website...he has taste, but it's in his ass.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:39:44 PM EDT
I never claimed that these where magic bullets, i simply asked whether or not they work or if anyone had experiance with them. Not one person that has posted has actualy givin a answer related to my topic or any question in my initial post. As stated in my first post, i said thay look interesteing ( Due to there LARGE hollow point opening , more then 1/8 of and inch) and the marketing sounds amazeing, but i wanted to know if they are just hype or if they actualy work for home defense. Im new to the AR forums and the AR itsself and am looking for info, not smartass remarks. In past experiance, hollow points provide better more reliable stopping power then FMJ rounds, and these ExtremeShock bullets are by far the largest .223 hollow point rounds i have ever seen.There actualy about 1/4" longer then the standard practice rounds i have and fit in the magazine snugley. If i believed everything the manufacturer claimed i wouldnt be here asking questions!!! Regards, Robert
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:47:15 PM EDT
Dude, I'm just messing around. Relax. If you can't tell, I'm trying to say: "It's all hype. The best wounding mechanism of the 5.56 round is not expansion, but fragmentation. On top of that, you want a minimum of 12" of penetration, which these rounds won't give you. The 77gr Nosler would be a better performer, and it costs about 1/6th of what you paid" Better?
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:55:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2003 5:58:44 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Here's some more comments [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000144.html[/url] [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000283.html[/url]
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 5:56:58 PM EDT
Thanks brouhaha , your the first one to post straight forward info relating to my question, im greatfull. Just gets a little irritateing when ya post to get info and get nuthing but sarcassim. Like i said im new to the AR and the .223 round. Ive always owned handguns and this is my first AR. I only bought the rounds based on my past handgun experiance knowing HPs are better then FMJs when it comes to self defense. I had no idea that HPs did not matter much when it came to the .223 / 5.56 round. thanks again
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:09:33 PM EDT
In hunting applications, you want expansion instead of fragmentation...unless you enjoy picking lead and copper out of the meat with your teeth. But in a defensive situation, you want fragmentation. In a nutshell, it creates a larger wound, thus more blood loss/chance of instant incapacitation. In handguns, you're right...you want HP's that expand.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:28:36 PM EDT
Please correct me if im wrong, but after reading the two links you gave me the conclusion i kinda came to is that these rounds arent liked due to there fast fragmentation. For home defense wouldnt this be a good thing? Wouldnt it be safer to have a round that fragmented when hitting a interior wall rather then going thru the wall to hit a family member? And wouldnt a round that had 7" of penitration and severe fragmentation be more then enough to disable an intruder faster the a .223 FMJ ? Is there a better round out there that does all this and exceeds the claims of the ninja bullet that someone has had alot of experiance with? Any info would be great. Thanks, Rob
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:39:18 PM EDT
You want more than 7" of penetration, since an attacker RARELY gives you a full-frontal chest shot. Normally, you'll have to hit him from an angle or through an arm or hand. That's why a minimum of 12" of penetration is recommended. The ammo-oracle link explains this. 5.56 ammo (most, anyways) will actually penetrate LESS through walls than handgun ammunition will. It won't take much wall for the round to begin fragmenting, thus it's actually safer to those on the other side of the wall. Ammo-oracle also explains this bettr than I will tonight. I'm too tired to speak very coherently.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:07:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: [img]http://www.btammolabs.com/images/ESammo.jpg[/img]
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Brouhaha, did you create this ad yourself or is this actually part of their advertising? If it is...wow [:O] It would go nicely with this [url=http://greent.com/40Page/general/armchair.htm]Armchair Commando Ammo[/url]
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:23:04 PM EDT
It's their advertising. Open up almost any gun rag, and it'll be on the inside cover, although very slightly different.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:28:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: It's their advertising. Open up almost any gun rag, and it'll be on the inside cover, although very slightly different.
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[:O] Jesus-I thought it was an ad parody for sure. I knew there was a reason why the only gun magazine I ever read is the one that comes free with my NRA membership. Now I know the reason [:O]
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 8:55:29 PM EDT
Wow, at first glance I figured Birdman had something to do with this. [nana] MM
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 9:50:39 AM EDT
[url]http://www.extremeshockusa.com/[/url] They actually seem quite proud of this picture.[;D] They must have gotten hyperbole man to write their ad copy:
The lethality of the Extreme Shock round is beyond description. In the magazine of a capable operator it can be the difference between victory and defeat. As a hunting round it is unrivalled in stopping power, with the capability of .30 caliber kill shots in excess of 1000 yards.
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Link Posted: 10/22/2003 11:58:58 AM EDT
Not that anyone in particular might care, but here are some of my thoughts:
The expansive fragmentation characteristics of the ExtremeShock rounds transfer the bullets energy in a far faster time span than conventional hollowpoints.
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This whole energy-dumping issue is obviously complete bunk. If I hit you hard in the chest with a fist, I will have dumped much more energy into your body than a bullet would. Yet, you're still alive.
he compressed Tungsten-NyTriliumTM Composite fragments upon impact, leaving a wound channel of catastrophic proportions.
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You can't have it both ways: If the bullet fragments immediately upon impact, then it will not have enough rest mass to provide sufficient penetration. You'll have a massive wound channel, but it may not go deep enough to do anything.
The resulting stopping power is utterly devastating. E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.
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Wow! A rotational cone of NyTrillium matrix particles. Certainly sounds impressive. And they virtually guarantee a "neurological collapse of the central nervous system." Sweet. And how exactly does that happen ?
A wound channel 200x the size of the entry projectile. A reduced velocity SRT round blows a 7" diameter cavity in ballistic clay.
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The ever popular "ballistic clay." It's obvious they didn't do gelatin tests. And the gelatin pictures they do show don't have reference marks for scale.
The 505 lb Boar in the picture was taken with a single 9mm round
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What an awesome idea. You know there's someone out there looking at that picture who is digging his Glock out of the closet and applying for a bear tag....
Battle Proven, Dangerous Game Tested!
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Hmmm. I didn't see a single reference to it's combat worthiness. Maybe I didn't see it due to the "Death Star projectile" reference.
A Heritage of Innovation, dedication and relentless Commitment to Excellence! The revered Mullins R&D Facility in Clintwood has tested and developed hundreds of thousands of rounds, including the unique bullets below. It is this relentless pursuit of perfection that has produced the bullets that bear the ExtremeShock name.
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Who the hell is the "revered Mullins R&D facility" ?
The ExtremeShock Explosive Entry Round leaves a "shaped charge" trauma cavity with hundreds of individual wounds channels, causing Central Nervous System catastrophic overload. In video taped field tests with angry 300 lb Russian Boars, a single.380 round will incapacitate and kill in a matter of seconds! The 505 lb Boar in the picture was taken with a single 9mm round.
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What more can I say ? An angry, 300lb russian boar with a .380. Brilliant. The only way I'll buy that is if the boar was tied down and the guy shot it in the brain from 6" away. Never mind that it took 3 shots out of a .30-06 to completely put down a 75lb Texas hog. Thankfully, I can tell my buddy to leave the rifle at home and just take the Makarov. Heck - they even sell a [b]Fragmentable[/b] 300 Win Mag in 190gr specifically listed for dangerous game! What kind of stupidity is that ? What the heck do Winchester/Remington/etc. know about bullet design ? Why have partition and fail-safe bullets for dangerous game specifically built to NOT fragment ? What were they thinking ? They should have consulted with the "revered Mullins R&D facility." There is so little actual scientific proof on their pages that it's causing me physical discomfort. I'd like to laugh about it, but the information is not only misleading, but could be very dangerous if taken at face value - such as a fragmenting bullet for hunting thick-skinned dangerous game. Or ammunition for defensive purposed which doesn't do the job. Their saving grace may be that the small number of people who buy their product will never have to rely on it as they never encounter a situation requiring deadly force.
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