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Posted: 10/19/2003 6:46:59 PM EDT
Is all Q3131A made in Isreal? The box I saw said made in USA. How about the 223R1 value packs?

Looking at the specs on the winchester site, the difference between the USA223R1 and the Q3131A is only 30 fps slower so this makes it ALMOST mil spec speed, right? Not much difference in my book. How much difference do you all think it makes?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:10:22 AM EDT
Q3131a is better. You have to consider the bullet jacket thickness, placement of the cannulure, shape, etc. Also, the annealed case neck of the Q3131a, plus the flash retardant in the powder. There IS a difference. Ghost
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:43:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ghost-Shooter: Q3131a is better. You have to consider the bullet jacket thickness, placement of the cannulure, shape, etc. Also, the annealed case neck of the Q3131a, plus the flash retardant in the powder. There IS a difference. Ghost
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[b]Everywhere[/b] I've read says the the bullet is the same in both of them. Can ANYONE tell me what the annealed case does for you? There are different reports on whether flash retardant is in both or either so I can't take your statement as gospel.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:47:51 AM EDT
Over simplified, annealing is a heat treating of the case neck. This makes it more malable and [i]softer[/i] for reloading. This way you have less chance of a split case neck.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:54:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By obershutze916: Over simplified, annealing is a heat treating of the case neck. This makes it more malable and [i]softer[/i] for reloading. This way you have less chance of a split case neck.
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Ok, so it's a difference. But not MUCH of one. If you don't reload it's a non issue.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:55:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: Can ANYONE tell me what the annealed case does for you?
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All cases are annealed as part of the drawing of the case from the original hunk of brass. Annealing relives the work hardening on the case. You cannot work brass into a case without annealing or the case will split before the neck and shoulder are formed. Commercial brass is subsequently cleaned to remove the tell tale marks on the brass. Mil-spec ammo isn't because they don't care if it looks dark. Tumble a mil-spec case long enough in a tumbler and it looks the same as any other case. For a handloader additional annealing done at home can help prevent work hardening the brass during resizing and delay the onset of case neck splits. Unles you loading really expensive brass like Weatherby it isn't worth the effort. Hope that helps Slowworm.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:02:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 6:10:31 AM EDT by DaPhotoGuy]
Originally Posted By Slowworm:
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: Can ANYONE tell me what the annealed case does for you?
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All cases are annealed as part of the drawing of the case from the original hunk of brass. Annealing relives the work hardening on the case. You cannot work brass into a case without annealing or the case will split before the neck and shoulder are formed. Commercial brass is subsequently cleaned to remove the tell tale marks on the brass. Mil-spec ammo isn't because they don't care if it looks dark. Tumble a mil-spec case long enough in a tumbler and it looks the same as any other case. For a handloader additional annealing done at home can help prevent work hardening the brass during resizing and delay the onset of case neck splits. Unles you loading really expensive brass like Weatherby it isn't worth the effort. Hope that helps Slowworm.
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Thank you. If I read you right, the annealing difference isn't a difference as both cases are annealed. If the bullet is, as I've read, the same in both, than besides the 30 fps difference in speed, the only difference would be if there is flash retardant in either or both.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:13:07 AM EDT
DAPHOTOGUY, If I'm not mistaken the 223R1 velocity is measured with a 24" barrel and the Q3131a is measured by a 20" barrel. I've looked at winchesters booklet alot and I do believe I noticed that. So you are actually looking at more of a difference in velocity. If you took 223R1 and measured velocity from a 20" barrel it would probably more like 150 or so fps slower. Have a look again at the barrel dimensions they show. If you can't find it I'll find it on mine and figure out how to use my brother's scanner.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:40:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 10:41:27 AM EDT by DaPhotoGuy]
Originally Posted By JJREA: DAPHOTOGUY, If I'm not mistaken the 223R1 velocity is measured with a 24" barrel and the Q3131a is measured by a 20" barrel. I've looked at winchesters booklet alot and I do believe I noticed that. So you are actually looking at more of a difference in velocity. If you took 223R1 and measured velocity from a 20" barrel it would probably more like 150 or so fps slower. Have a look again at the barrel dimensions they show. If you can't find it I'll find it on mine and figure out how to use my brother's scanner.
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I'd like to see that if you can find it. On the Winchester website it mentions nothing about barrel length being different. I can't see why, if they want to show one velosity, they would do so out of different length barrels and not state that. The data would be worthless. I'll write Winchester and find out. [url=http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrproductsheet.aspx?symbol=USA223R1&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU1qSXpJRkpsYldsdVozUnZiZytBQ­1UtM2QrQUNVLTNkK0FDWS11c2VsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0­FDWS1icmFuZGxpc3QrQUQwLTUrQUNZLWJ1bGxldHR5cGU­rQUQwLW5vbmU=]USA223R1 SPEC SHEET[/url] [url=http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrproductsheet.aspx?symbol=Q3131A&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU5TNDFObTF0K0FDWS11c2VsaXN0K­0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1icmFuZGxpc3QrQUQwLW5vbmUrQU­NZLWJ1bGxldHR5cGUrQUQwLW5vbmU=]Q3131A SPEC SHEET[/url]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:48:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:13:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 1:45:19 PM EDT by DaPhotoGuy]
Originally Posted By Troy: Q3131A is made in Israel by IMI, using IMI components (even the WCC-stamped brass is IMI brass). The USA223R1 and other FMJ loads are assembled in the US using Czech S&B copper-jacketed bullets. S&B supplies the gold-colored bullets, which leave gold-colored flakes everywhere, used in all of the pistol bulk-packs too. -Troy
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Good info to know. I know what you mean about the gold-colored flakes as I use the 9mm value packs for IPSC shooting. I don't use the USA223R1 but I'm researching this for a friend. After a looking closely at the spec sheets on the Winchester sight I figured they must be a different bullet as the ballistic coefficient wasn't the same. [b][red]Have you seen any fragmentation comparisons between USA223R1 and Q3131A?[/red][/b] Many posts like this [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=158931&w=searchPop[/url] incorrectly say they are the SAME bullet.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:40:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 11:43:04 AM EDT by Zhukov]
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By JJREA: DAPHOTOGUY, If I'm not mistaken the 223R1 velocity is measured with a 24" barrel and the Q3131a is measured by a 20" barrel. I've looked at winchesters booklet alot and I do believe I noticed that. So you are actually looking at more of a difference in velocity. If you took 223R1 and measured velocity from a 20" barrel it would probably more like 150 or so fps slower. Have a look again at the barrel dimensions they show. If you can't find it I'll find it on mine and figure out how to use my brother's scanner.
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I'd like to see that if you can find it. On the Winchester website it mentions nothing about barrel length being different. I can't see why, if they want to show one velosity, they would do so out of different length barrels and not state that. The data would be worthless. I'll write Winchester and find out.
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It's not in their on-line spec sheet, but it most definitely shows in their printed material. It lists Q3131A at the bottom of the page, and specifically mentions that it is measured outof a 20" barrel, as compared to 24" for the others. [Edited to add:] My source is the 2003 Winchester Product Guide, page 11, "USA Brand Centerfire Cartridges." It clearly shows the differing barrel lengths used for testing Q3131A and 223R1.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:46:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By JJREA: DAPHOTOGUY, If I'm not mistaken the 223R1 velocity is measured with a 24" barrel and the Q3131a is measured by a 20" barrel. I've looked at winchesters booklet alot and I do believe I noticed that. So you are actually looking at more of a difference in velocity. If you took 223R1 and measured velocity from a 20" barrel it would probably more like 150 or so fps slower. Have a look again at the barrel dimensions they show. If you can't find it I'll find it on mine and figure out how to use my brother's scanner.
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I'd like to see that if you can find it. On the Winchester website it mentions nothing about barrel length being different. I can't see why, if they want to show one velosity, they would do so out of different length barrels and not state that. The data would be worthless. I'll write Winchester and find out.
View Quote
It's not in their on-line spec sheet, but it most definitely shows in their printed material. It lists Q3131A at the bottom of the page, and specifically mentions that it is measured outof a 20" barrel, as compared to 24" for the others. [Edited to add:] My source is the 2003 Winchester Product Guide, page 11, "USA Brand Centerfire Cartridges." It clearly shows the differing barrel lengths used for testing Q3131A and 223R1.
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Damn, they need to say that on their online spec sheets. Otherwise the data is completly worthless.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:22:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:25:10 PM EDT
DAPHOTOGUY, I find little things here and there on line that don't always coincide with up to date literature. For example, Hornady shows pictures of their boxes that they use for packaging and they are the old reddish style instead of the new cardboard type. I know it's a small thing but there are other things I've seen that I can't keep on top of my head. To help you understand the difference between .223 and 5.56 though you should go to ammo-oracle.com. It is a very informative site on .223/5.56 ammo in general. I too have wondered if the bullet was the same. I started another thread and asked if the white box stuff would and also umc had a bullet that would fragment at say 50 meters or so because of the less velocity. But I didn't get a response from the pro's. But I think these guys are right, we should just stick with the q3131a or equivalent for defense if you're going to go with a fmj type bullet. Or go to the heavy stuff. 77grain match and such. And keep the cheap .223 stuff for plinking and burnin up for no good reason. I'm sure it'll penetrate an old appliance or something eh? Or watermelons. Troy, thank you for posting actual chrono'd results. I don't have one yet. I was taking a swag when I said 150 fps slower. Hey, I just wanted to tell you Troy even though I defended that guy in that other thread about twists and stuff, it didn't mean I didn't agree with you guys, I was just trying to smooth things out a bit. Sometimes people don't like hearing they're wrong even if they are. This sight is light years ahead of any information out there on this beautiful little bullet/ rifle combo it may have a tenancy to shatter people's opinions in quick way. But sometimes fast is painful. You know what I mean? I'm glad they closed that thread though because it was going downhill rapidly. jj out
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:19:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: My chronograph shows the bulk-pack stuff to be 160-200 fps slower than Q3131A. There's a noticable difference in felt recoil, noise, and cycling as well. ...
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Have tested the Federal XM193 or similar? Thanks John
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:42:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: My chronograph shows the bulk-pack stuff to be 160-200 fps slower than Q3131A. There's a noticable difference in felt recoil, noise, and cycling as well. I highly recommend against using the bulk-pack stuff for duty/defensive use. -Troy
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Thanks for the chronograph data Troy. 200 fps would drop it down to about 3070 fps. I'm assuming that is too slow to fragment the S&B bullet that it is loaded with? I only have two boxes of the stuff but I'm researching for a friend who has quite a bit. I wish we could all send brouhaha & tatjana $10 to pay for more fragmentation experiments of different rounds. It's hard to argue with gelatin tests.
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