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Posted: 9/24/2003 7:57:20 PM EDT
Can I get some feedback on the Winchester Ranger
ammo for a 223? How good is it? What does it go for per box of 20? I took in 1 case each of RA556JF and Q3246 (200 rounds each case) in a trade. The RA556JF is a Jacketed Frangible 45 gr bullet and the Q3246 is a 64 gr Power-point. I personally like the SS109/M855 round for general purpose. How does it compare to the 109/855 stuff?
Any and all feedback/info welcomed
Thanks
Dave
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:45:24 PM EDT
I believe the Ranger ammo is the same as the civilian Winchester, just put into tax-free LE boxes. I could be wrong. CRC
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 9:05:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 4:50:23 PM EDT
Troy, Winchester's website lists the velocity as the same for both the hunting and Ranger power point loads. It also shows cannelure for both. CRC
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:33:20 PM EDT
So is it worth keeping or is it good trade bait? Dave
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 12:37:15 AM EDT
The 64 gr is worthy as a self defense load, although as pointed out the 75 gr Hornady/77 gr Nosler match loads will make a larger wound. The 64 gr Powerpoint is also one of the better loads made for the .223 if you are to hunt things larger than most varmints, such as whitetail deer. I'm not saying the .223 is the best cartridge for that job by any means, just that the 64 gr Powerpoint is one of the best .223 loads if you do use it for that purpose. The 45 gr stuff I would only use against small furry varmints. The light bullets just don't have the necessary penetration to be considered an ideal defensive round. -CH
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 4:44:34 PM EDT
I thank all of you gentlemen for sharing your knowledge. Thanks Dave
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 2:30:03 PM EDT
Just bought 4 boxes of Winchester Ranger 69gr 223 to try in my AR180B this coming Sunday at the range.Recently shot some 69 and 77gr Federal Gold Matchking BTHP and both seem to shoot 3/4" groups at 125yds.The price of the Federals were both $28 dollars CDN and the Winchesters are $19 dollars CDN for a box of 20.I sure hope the Winchesters shoot as well. Thanks Dieseldog!
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 8:46:34 AM EDT
DEISELDOG, Did you get those 69 grain rangers online? Are you a police officer? I thought it was only for the cops? Also your groups from your ar180b. Did you use the irons or do you have a scope? Is it 5 rounds or three that you're measuring? Did you have sand bags or what. Those are impressive groups. I forget what issue but in the american rifleman magazine awhile back it had a write up on that gun and the guy got really good groups also using all remington ammo I think. It was just the normal 55 grain psp and such but those rifles must be accurate. It's a nice looking rifle too. Is it nice to shoot?
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 3:21:07 PM EDT
FWIW, You DO NOT have to be a LEO to buy, sell or shoot the Winchester Ranger line. For the $12.99 price of a 20 round box of Ranger's you might as well have bought a 50 round box of Blackhill's for $24. The difference in performance between the two 69gr. rounds will be nil for a civilian shooter and any possible thing they might encounter. The 45gr RA556JF round would be a wise choice for inside your dwelling in case you miss the intruder/attacker. A solid COM shoot or two on them would be sufficient to stop in most SD cases. The 64gr. power point should be the RA233R2 not Q3246. This round would be ideal against auto glass. You'd probably be better off unloading the ammo at a profit and buying some Blackhill's to replace it. Regards, Sec1Ops
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 3:27:27 PM EDT
thanks sec1op. What does fwiw stand for? For what it's worth?
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 6:19:14 PM EDT
JJREA, Correct:) The one other thing I should of added is that the Ranger line is not illegal for civilians to buy or posses. More correctly Winchester doesn't market it to the civilians consumer. Thus, the many questions about the status and the hassle to obtain.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 4:49:23 PM EDT
sec1, according to their website the 69 grainer is listed to go 3090 fps which is faster than any other commercial loading of this bullet. I wonder if it's true. I think black hills is known for good velocity but on their site they only show it at 2850 fps. I wonder what it really is? That's why I've got to get a chrony. By the way, do you know where I can get the ranger ammunition? I wouldn't mind trying some of it. jj
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 7:28:59 PM EDT
JJREA, The Ranger ammo that I have a source for only carries the 69gr. OTM's. Their $13 a box of 20 plus shipping. Blackhill's is the better choice though in my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 3:56:58 PM EDT
how come?
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 9:16:26 PM EDT
How come? Price & quantity: almost a 2:1 ratio:) The Ranger's in this case will do nothing that much better than the BH's load, even while the Ranger has a higher psi loading. This is in regards to most any civilian encounter, which would be unlikely to go beyond the BH's potential and operational window or for that matter the Ranger's. Consider that most LE Snipers shoot at an average encounter distance of between 70-80 meters (or yards?) when lethal force is called for. Your talking about paying twice as much and getting less than half of what you otherwise could have received. This is all for a ~5 maybe ~10% increase in potential to an operational window that most will never reach or see unless they're active military SF. As David DiFabio signs: "Think, Plan, Train. Be Safe. Thanks. David." So I guess the real question is why? What's enough and at what point will you know when you've reached it? I’d rather invest in training with a lot of one kind of ammo than stock pile it for rainy days SHTFS crap that never comes and if by an act of God it arrives I’m untrained to use it anyway. More ammo and a price savings = more practice and upkeep of a very perishable motor skill. Best, Sec1Ops
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 9:42:25 AM EDT
SEC1, $13 for 20 didn't seem that bad to me. I paid $10 for Hornady 75 grain bthp but I had to by 4 boxes. The gun store had been trying to get rid of them for awhile. Also, you must be comparing it to black hills blue box. The red box is probably comparable to the winchester price. If the blue box (reloaded) works for you, great. I tried some 68 grainer blue box I got at Gander Mountain and it was the worst grouping ammo out of all that I've shot. And that's including umc, and pmc cheapy stuff. Maybe I got a bad batch or maybe my rifle doesn't like the 68 grain bullet. I would rather shoot the cheaper stuff but my group was like over 5" at 100 yards. I could be wrong but I don't know if I'd consider that good accuracy. Part of it is me but most other ammo shoots almost twice as good as that. Maybe I'll try another grain of the blue box. Because I agree with you. The more down range the better!!! I don't really stockpile mine. I would If I had more money to blow but right now I'm down to about 150 rounds of various stuff. I also like your idea of sticking to one type but I'm not satisfied that I know which one's best in my gun yet for the price. THERES SO MANY!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 12:42:11 PM EDT
JJREA, There is no "one" round for all applications. Each situation is a fluid act different in all possible variables from any other. My belief is to have a Ballistic Tip for indoor use to limit penetration to unwanted area. Pick 40-60gr. based on what works best and then is priced best for your budget. (In some cases a OTM will also be just as useful) For everything else M193 is the best place to start so I like to have some of that handy for a general baseline. However, a HP/OTM bullet design will increase substantially the effectiveness of my hits. So when possible I'll decide on a 69-77gr. bullet based on the intended area of operation and equipment. Find out first what does and doesn't work in your equipment then match your rounds with the intended use. If the 68gr. BH Blue box isn't working well try the 55, 69, 75 and 77's both in Red and Blue. Federal 69gr. HP's also work very well. There isn't one answer but several in a couple different variables. The true point of the journey is the process, not the end answer, so have fun. Then worry about how to match you training budget rounds to actual SD rounds.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 7:39:59 PM EDT
Thanks for the comments. Well put and I appreciate them. I still would like to try some of that ranger stuff sometime. I like the name. Bad reason but nevertheless, a reason to buy some ammo. jj
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 8:41:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2003 8:49:21 PM EDT by DevL]
If your going to use two bullets ballistic tips and M193 is a poor combo. Use 77 grain OTM for soft targets and 55 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw as a barrier round. If you want Winchester Ranger ammo becasue it has a cool name I suggest the pistol ammo as it is the #1 choice in handgun calibers. Their rifle ammo is about #5 or so.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 10:42:08 PM EDT
DevL I concur with the combo assessment. There is a great worry in regards to "over penetration" situations in crowds and/or houses-dwellings and Ballistic Tips are the way to go. I do prefer OTM's over the Ball ammo in any situation. Thus, OTM's and BT's / Bonded or Ball where needed. The ONLY reason I use a BT in my home is I do not want over penetration and I know I'm shooting from a thirty round magazine with plenty of back-up. Also, David DiFabio's personal encounter while on a domestic "situation" he was involved in reassured this belief. Without a lot of detail he in no uncertain terms stated that 40gr. BT's had no problem in resolving the issue in a close proximity. (Take it for what it's worth but in the thread I was pretty clear on the meaning) I do not often take a lot of stock in what people say; however, David is one of the few individuals that I'll take notice of and weigh the information for what it's worth. This is not a wholehearted endorsement but I DO NOT fell under equipped with 60gr BT's in my home. I do not believe they should be under estimated in their design nor completely relied upon and that's also why I have OTM's loaded close at hand. JJREA, If your set on the name, the RA223M can be found by doing a search on the proload website. Regards, Sec1Ops
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 11:55:04 PM EDT
I thnk we agree. What I am saying is for OUTDOOR use I would have the OTM and TBBC combo and just have a magazine of the 60 grain BT for home defense if you live in an apt or such. I would not feel adequately armed if the badguy can can block my incoming rounds with just an extended arm. 40 grain to the off arm and into the chest will not stop a determined adversary.
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 10:42:56 AM EDT
sec 1, I remember reading an article where a cop used a ballistic tip out of an m-4 type and it worked well. I believe it was the 50 grain winchester silver tip. One round stop the bad guy. It was at seriously close range like 15 feet. One round lodged into the drywall. From what I remember the round went into the guys upper chest and came to rest on his coller bone or something. And they said it made a pretty good temporary cavity. It's all off of memory but what I'm saying is I agree with you. Devl may be right if it had to go through an arm it might not go much farther but I think alot of the swat type and police are using these ballistic tips to not overpenetrate and hopefully to some degree of success. It'd be nice if they never had to fire at all but that just aint real life now is it. thanks for the search info. jj
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