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Posted: 9/17/2003 4:53:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2004 7:20:44 AM EDT by Zhukov]
Please add your personal experience with WINCHESTER Q3131A / IMI M193 ammunition to this thread. When you do, please give information about:
1) Firearm used in
2) Approximate number of rounds fired.

For more information about this ammunition, check out the Winchester website.

From RussB's post out of a 16" barrel:
Velocity: 3079fps, StdDev=13fps

Winchester Q3131A is made in Israel by IMI for Winchester and is the same as IMI (TZ headstamp) M193.

Let's limit this to .223/5.56 ammunition, since this is an AR-15 forum. No offense to the guys with AR's in other calibers, but we all know that .223 chamberings are the most sensitive.

I am trying to solicit only information about your PERSONAL experience with this ammunition. If you haven't used it, then please don't clutter up the thread. Information about proper functioning (or lack thereof) is obviously the most important, but factors such as the accuracy or other peculiarities you've noticed are informative also. If you have had problems with this ammo which were severe enough to cause you to stop using this ammo, then please describe them. And one more minor request: keep your reviews objective.

This post is part of a larger information-gathering effort I'm trying to start about ALL ammunition popular in AR's:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729.

I'm going to have a seperate poll later for other Winnie ammunition. Q3131A occupies a special place in this forum and ought to have its own space.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:09:26 PM EDT
My 20" fulton and my wife's 16.1 upper. Several thousand rounds fired. No problems other than a few FTF/FTE which were linked to old mags with bad lips or springs. (Do not confuse this ammo with Q3131 [no "a"] which sucks major ass)
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:16:27 PM EDT
1. Used in several firearms including Colt 16" lightweight, Colt 20" HBAR and a Bushmaster 16" HBAR. 2. Approximate number of rounds fired = 2500 When it comes to general purpose ammo, this has been my primary choice for the past couple of years. I have had no functioning problems with this ammo. In fact, the only thing I can ever recall is having to cull a few rounds because of some pretty severe dents. But considering I have used 2500 rounds of the stuff at least, that is an acceptable ratio IMHO and not a problem. Otherwise I really love this ammo. Unfortunately, I have heard that IMI may no longer have the contract to produce M193 spec ammo for Winchester. So the days of Q3131A may soon be over if this is true. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:41:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 4:41:36 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
(Do not confuse this ammo with Q3131 [no "a"] which sucks major ass) ________________________________________________ Correction. Q3131 was the original. Q3131A is is the copy. I have used 94 and still have 2 cases of Q3131. Made in U.S.A. at Lake City plant. Very hot and accurate. The last lots of Q3131 were questionable, that's all. So don't label it all as bad. That would be giving wrong info! Edit: To stay on topic. Have fired 2 cases of Q3131A with NO problems. I have 3 cases of this for SHTF ammo, among others. I only buy this now for 55gr ammo.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:39:00 PM EDT
I sure hope you guys are applying the same standard of judgement to this round as you are to, say, Wolf. Surely there'll be some of you which have had minor problems with it. C'mon now - don't be shy. [;)] Just being a smartass. It's been interesting following the way these polls are turning out...
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 8:39:51 PM EDT
Q3131A is my favorite blasting ammo. I've only fired about 500 rounds on my poor teengae budget but have not had any problems. This is from a Bushmaster 20" bbl A2.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 4:30:45 AM EDT
It's the ONLY 55-grain 5.56 ammo I buy and use.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 4:35:34 AM EDT
This is my stocking ammo of choice as it shoots the tightest groups in all my M4 rifles, (Colt Bushy and RRA). Over 5000 rounds fired. NO "Ammo Related" problems with this ammo at all. Mike
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 4:39:48 AM EDT
Has worked very well in my 16" chrome lined RRA M4gery. Accuracy has been almost as good as with Fed Gold Medal 69 gr SMK and Hornady 75 gr BTHP Match. Big Al
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 11:11:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 11:16:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 1:25:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2003 10:54:25 PM EDT by ar-jedi]
rifle: Bushmaster M4A3 16" (blunt) "patrolman's carbine" bbl. Q3131A: 1750 rnds through, no problems whatsoever. notes-- -- reliability, accuracy, and power surely good enough for any SHTF situations. -- more muzzle flash than commercial 223. -- shoots fairly clean. -- nice looking cases. -- can't get enough of it. -- would buy Q3131A in mass quantities if i found it at the right price (say $150 /1K to my door). ar-jedi
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 1:27:23 PM EDT
Priced right... Accurate, Consistent, Low flash, Good Brass, What's [b]NOT[/b] to like? Q3131A is my favorite M193 ammo. I've only fired just under 1000 rounds...Hmm, time to get more!
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 2:32:40 PM EDT
I've fired about 3,000 rounds through my ArmaLite M15A2 with a 20-inch barrel and experienced no problems at all. Accuracy is good, and the flash is about three inches in diameter out of the ArmaLite brake. I found one cartridge that was dented and had to be discarded. Once when I ran out of Q3131A I tried some Q3131 and had several primers pop out. That was the end of that experiment. I paid a flat $150 for my last case about three weeks ago at a local gun show. It was about 4:00 PM on Sunday, and the dealer probably figured it was easier to sell it than pack it up and cart it off. Or maybe he'd had a slow day and need some quick cash. I don't know and don't really care either. Usually I pay around $170 per case at gun shows.
Link Posted: 9/18/2003 9:34:22 PM EDT
approximately 500 rounds through DPMS M4. Functions flawlessly, though with a naked end barrel you get a 1'-2' fireball even in the daytime. Positive ejection (10 feet to right and 2-3 feet forward off the brass deflector) with a satisfying recoil.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 8:05:15 AM EDT
Have fired approx 1500 rounds through a bushmaster ak a2. No problems. Like the ammo q3131a
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 2:22:29 PM EDT
Working my way through the fifth case. No problems using two different Bushmaster carbines. It's the only 5.56 ammo I buy anymore.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 7:32:52 AM EDT
I have fired one hundred rounds through my franken ar-15 with a 20 inch m-16a1 barrel. average velocity through above barrel, 3162 fps. Not as accurate as ammo loaded with premium bullets. experienced no kind of malfunctions.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 7:53:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2003 7:54:21 AM EDT by Gunslinger808]
Q3131A is all I buy. I use it in 5 different ARs, a old 11.5 inch Colt Commando, 2 M-4s 1 Bushy 1 Colt (16"), 20 inch Bushy flattop, 20 inch Colt H Bar. Have never had a FTF/FTE, case seperation, or any other problem. Accuracy has always been good, considering were talking factory ammo. From the bench, out of 20" Flat top (scoped), average MOA is about 1.5. Out of 11.5 inch barrel it runs about 2.5 to 3. Commando about 5000 rnds. M-4s about 2000 each. H Bar about 3500. Flat Top about 450. Personal notes: Some batches are, others are not sealed against moisture. Minimal fouling from unburned powder residue.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 8:02:44 AM EDT
I tried Wolf with less than stellar results, to put in mildly. I only use Q3131A now. Armalite Rock River Arms Bushmaster Have used several cases now and have bought 3 more cases for future use.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:25:47 AM EDT
Good Stuff. [:)]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:33:13 AM EDT
It is my personal favorite M193 load. I have fired several thousand rounds with no problems attributable to the ammo, out of a variety of guns. Right now I am shooting XM193 because the Q3131A is a bit harder to find and I don't want to dig into my reserve stock of Q3131A.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 10:39:39 PM EDT
about 500 through a rra m4 entry...about 2000 through bushmaster xm15....among varius other types of ammo...i think 3131a is the best...no trouble at all..
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 8:20:18 PM EDT
All Q3131A I've shot has been 100%. Nice shiny cases without the dents and crap I've found in lot 19 LC M193. Best 55gr ammo I've shot. Even my contender shoots it whereas it wont fire LC ammo without several strikes on it's harder primers. Love the Q3131A.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 4:46:17 PM EDT
Have put about 2,000 rounds through my 20" Bushmaster without a single round misbehaving. Very consistent, clean brass, very good accuracy, by far my #1 rated plinking ammo now that SA surplus has vanished.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 4:46:46 PM EDT
1. Half a case+ 2. Colt M16A1. 20 inch barrel. Very nice and tight groups when I shot on Full Auto. Semi Groups, well, ask me again in a few months. If what I did is any indication, I’ll be shooting sub-minute groups when I get a scope for the upper. It also cleaned up very quickly. I spent less time than usual on the Lower. MUCH less time. I was surprised just how fast it cleaned up. I was very impressed by the ammo. So far S&B has been the most accurate ammo I’ve ever shot. I have a Remington BDL that has shot half minute groups with PMC ammo. I’m wondering just how well it will shoot with my rifle that I use for Benchmark accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 6:43:05 PM EDT
3 different Bushmasters 1 RRA several thousand rounds ZERO PROBLEMS
Link Posted: 10/30/2003 5:02:21 AM EDT
Limited experience, but so far with 200 rounds fired in 24" stainless flat top no problems what so ever. 5-20 shot group at 100 yds about 1 1/4" consistant. In my M4gry no problems w/200 rds. Groups 20 shot about 4" with red dot sight at 100 yds benched. Not gun or ammo fault, I can barely see the target with my aging eyes. Group 20 shot about 5" at 50yds standing, gun wobbleing {sp} like crazy. It is obvious I am not a hard holder. Very satisfied with Q3131a. After unfavorable experience with Wolf ammo in both guns on the 3rd box fired both times. Wolf cartridge getting 3/4 way into chamber and sticking/glueing itself to chamber wall in both firearms. In both instances charging handle would not pull cartridge out of chamber and had to pry bolt back with (shudder) screwdriver. BUT my buddy has not had any problems with Wolf in his carbine. Go figure. He got an early x-mas present, case of ammo.
Link Posted: 11/4/2003 7:50:48 AM EDT
I have fired approximately 1500 rounds through a 16" Bushmaster with no problems at all. In fact I bought 3 more cases this weekend for $155 each. Next weekend will be spent at the range. :)
Link Posted: 11/4/2003 10:32:31 AM EDT
Comparing Q3131A to XM193 in my 20" Bushmaster, I find the "Q" to be slightly more accurate. It feeds perfectly and fires when it's supposed to. None of the Winchester rounds were dented, unlike XM193 I've previously owned.
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 6:23:37 PM EDT
3000 rounds One Failure to feed - it may have been the new magazine I was breaking in. Colt AR-15 SP1 20" barrel When you can buy it for $2.88 per box then shoot it until the next sale. Otherwise shoot XM193 I get for $170.00 per thousand. I really don't like paying $200.00+ per thousand for ammo.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 3:39:18 AM EDT
I have shot 400 rnds so far with no failures as of yet. I have used this ammo in an Armalite M15 A4 carbine, and an Armalite M15 A2 20" Accuracy is good in both rifles 1 1/2 to two inches with irons at one hundred yards off of a rest. Clean and consistant. Better than the generic walmart Winchester in the white box.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:02:28 PM EDT
Used it since 1999 in local matches in colt and wilson ar's,also in aug for thousand of rounds with out problem.Accuracy also seemed fine enough for what ever i had to do.
Link Posted: 11/12/2003 4:59:43 AM EDT
Aprox 2000 rds Q3131A Colt MT6601 20' 1/7 1-FTF Very accurate Very consistent Good price Best ammo I've shot at any price! Hope I can get more when that time comes. ps, please don't buy it all up! ha ha
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 10:33:45 AM EDT
approx 3500 rounds Bushmaster w 14.5" barrel Accurate, clean, nice shiny cases, reasonably priced. Never had a failure to fire. Highly recommended.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 8:24:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: (Do not confuse this ammo with Q3131 [no "a"] which sucks major ass)
View Quote
Q3131 hasn't been available since 1999, which was the last year Winchester/Olin ran the Lake City plant. It appears that they tried to use up the last of the materials in the last few lots of Q3131, and ended up loading a bunch of ammo with bad powder that caused pressure problems and didn't have quite the correct burn rate. Anyway, it was only some of these '99 lots that had problems. Any '98 and older Q3131 is excellent, being identical in every way except headstamp markings to the Lake City M193 that was manufactured on the same equipment. Again, given that it was last made in '99, it's a moot point for most folks. -Troy
View Quote
Just want to add that I did have problems with a case of q3131 with 98 headstamps. Ammo would consistently cause my carbine to short stroke, yet all other types of ammo functioned fine, even some low velocity pmc. A friend had the same problems in his 20" rifle. There were also quite a few casings with split necks and had at least one round where the bullet was pushed back into the case when it was chambered.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:58:53 PM EDT
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/072693.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/072692.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 2:31:28 PM EDT
I fired in excess of 12,000 rounds of all makes of WCC Q3131a in less than 4 weeks earlier this year in one of two weapons: Bushmaster 16" post ban and m4 select fire 14.5". 4 failures, first 3 in the m4: Failure to extract. (Attributed to dirty weapon. Hadn't done a lick of cleaning in 7500 rounds). Failure to fire. (Attributed to round). Failure to fire. (Broken firing pin). Failure to feed. (Hung up on ramp. Attributed to magazine. Rounds replaced in new mag, fed and fired without flaw).
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:35:57 AM EDT
1000 rds or more. Bumpfires great!!! 20" bushy 16" rra Works great in both. My normal ammo for plinking. TXL
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 3:09:22 PM EDT
Many many rounds in Cav ARms with colt 20" barrel RRA lower with 24" SS upper OLY Arms 16" Franken gun 80% Ar build with freaky upper ZERO ammo related probs both with Q3131A and Fed XM193
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:09:34 AM EDT
<--------- No problems with any of my ARs.
Link Posted: 2/21/2004 1:38:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2004 1:40:20 PM EDT by phoenix27]
The Q3131A has a well-deserved rep as some of the best ammo out there. I would rank it as #1 or #1A on my list for a self-defense load. Good speed and good frag = good effect on the target. So far, no problems, other than a hot flash from the short barrels of my Bushy M4 and 16-inch carbines. My 20-inch Colt pre-ban HBAR doesn't seem to show the same amount of fire from the barrel. Phoenix27
Link Posted: 7/20/2004 11:03:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2004 11:06:26 PM EDT by eddie7]
Colt MT6731 16" barrel 1/9 twist.
Fired 160 rounds without a problem. All rounds feed well and ejected into the same general area. While sighting the carbine at 50yrds with iron sights, all rounds struck in a nice consistent group with little effort. I plan on using this ammo again without reservations.
Boxes say Lot # UF61
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 8:10:53 AM EDT



Fed XM193, Win Q3131A, and Win Q3131 all did about 3020fps in the M4 and 3255 in the 20". They appear to be interchanable.

Fed XM193 and Win Q3131A were equally accurate. 2.25 MOA in a good barrel. Commercial match grade ammo can do under 1 MOA in same barrel and handloads better still.

Fed XM193 has TONS of flash and Win Q3131 had significant flash, and therefore I prefer the Winchester Q3131A.



Fed XM193 (10 shots each)
M4 14.5", ES=68, Ave=3024, SD=19
20" ES=105, Ave=3251, SD=31 Accuracy was 2.25 inch 5 shot group.

Win Q3131A (5 shots each) Accuracy was 2.25 inch 5 shot group.
M4 ES=59, Ave=3011, SD=17
20" ES=91, Ave=3253, SD=32

Win Q3131 (had failures to function in both rifles)
M4 ES=61, Ave=3032, SD=22 (5 shots)
20" 3265, only 1 shot fired.


http://www.photomosaic.com/gns/flash.jpg
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:21:22 AM EDT
I've tried several different types of M193-type Ball ammo through my AR.

With Q3131A, I've had *ZERO* FTF's. *ZERO* FTE's. *ZERO* Problems.

I've found it to be accurate, clean, and affordable. It's available at several locations nearby.

Q3131A is my ammo of choice...for now, anyway.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 11:41:39 AM EDT
3K rounds-No problems. I love it!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:02:05 PM EDT
2 rifles:

1. 20" A2 J&T kit unchromed: approx. 1500 rounds with no failures directly related to ammo. three or four stovepipes and one doublefeed traced to a weak extractor/ejector.

2. 20" Pre-A1 Colt Air Force upper Chrome Chamber, unchromed barrel: 500 rounds, zero malfunctions. Am running Chrome bolt and Chrome M16-spec Carrier, so added weight may add reliability.

Q3131A is my favorite ammo.

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:37:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 7:38:34 PM EDT by ntwillea]
I have used Winchester Q3131A, IMI M193, M855, and even Federal XM193 in my AR-15 rifle. I went shooting with three of my friends on 20040918 and we had no problems with any of the ammunitions or the rifle.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 10:37:22 AM EDT
16" superlite, 16"m4 and 20" bull barrel. zero problems, very accuarate and for the bass pro price of $144 and some change very hard to beat
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 10:48:46 PM EDT
Only shot about 1K rounds. Not so much as a hickup. I will continue to purchase it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 7:42:16 PM EDT
How can I find out the manufactor dates if I know the lot #??

Any de-code formula or suggestions?

I have a case of Win Q3131 that I recently bought for SHTF and would want to know if this is the Hold'um or if I should fold'um andburn these at the range A.S.A.P.!

Thanks for your insight and assistance!

"Bigger_Hammer"
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