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Posted: 9/11/2003 8:55:54 AM EDT
Was the 62gr HP Silver Bear fragmenting or not?

I also remember you writing that the particular batch you had seemed to be shooting at around 3,200FPS. Am I remembering this correctly?

If Silver Bear really is loaded hot like that, even if it doesn't fragment, I may buy some on my next ammo run instead of Wolf. I like the little extra 'shove' that hotter ammo give ya.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 10:30:02 AM EDT
It did appear to fragment, but the sample size (n=2) was rather small due to a low-strength kitchen trashcan (and PO'd wife). From the tests someone else did, I recall it was loaded to ~2950fps, which is what hot 62gr stuff would be loaded to. It's obviously not SS109, but a nice alternative - especially if DaPhotoGuy's (I think that's who it was) campaign to have the red sealer removed is successful. I have since had a failure to extract; nothing big, just a slightly stuck case which needed to be tapped out. This is the picture from my second experiment in case you haven't seen it: [img]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/22519Silver_Bear_fragments2-med.jpg[/img] I'll do some more tests when I get a chance.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 10:58:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zhukov: It did appear to fragment, but the sample size (n=2) was rather small due to a low-strength kitchen trashcan (and PO'd wife). From the tests someone else did, I recall it was loaded to ~2950fps, which is what hot 62gr stuff would be loaded to. It's obviously not SS109, but a nice alternative - especially if DaPhotoGuy's (I think that's who it was) campaign to have the red sealer removed is successful. I have since had a failure to extract; nothing big, just a slightly stuck case which needed to be tapped out. This is the picture from my second experiment in case you haven't seen it: [url]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/22519Silver_Bear_fragments2-med.jpg[/url] I'll do some more tests when I get a chance.
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Yep, it's my personal quest to get the red sealant removed. They say they're working on it. B^) Loved the SBear test you did. Use a steel trash can next time! If you want I can send you a box of 20 SBear 62 grain BTSP to test with for your next test. If the HP fragments I bet the SP does also.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 11:58:58 AM EDT
I can't find the SP around here, and I'm not paying CTD's S&H charges. Send me an IM if you want my address - I don't know if it'll be too expensive to ship it to me though - your call. I did see that Home Depot had a nice galvanized trashcan I'm going to buy for next time. I might even wrap some duct tape or towing straps around the can to make it tougher to split.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 12:06:17 PM EDT
Thanks zhukov and DaPhotoGuy. [:)]
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 2:11:52 PM EDT
I really hope someone does a Gel test of the SB 62gr some day. I'd like to know how soon it yaws/fragments and how dramatic of a wound profile it leaves. Sure would be awfully cheap defensive ammunition!
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 11:05:22 AM EDT
I have shot the zinc plated Silver Bear .223, but not the .308 or 30-06 FMJ. This ammo is NOTHING like the green lacquered steel cased Russian ammo youre used to. My AR is a bit picky when it comes to lacquer buildup in the chamber with the green stuff (mostly messiness, its never caused a serious stoppage). However, this zinc plated stuff is a lot cleaner and leaves very little residue. I cant find anyone other than CTD that handles Silver Bear 308 and 30-06 FMJ (other than asshole wholesalers like Zander's who wont sell to even C&Rs). Since I live in Texas, I have no desire to pay both shipping and sales tax for this stuff. Anyone find any elsewhere? Mark my words...Russian steel cased ammo will be our best alternative for affordable practice/blasting ammo once milsurp begins to dry up. While I have never had any significant problems with any Russian steel cased ammo (with the notable exception of Wolf 45 ACP), I think a lot of American shooters have it in their heads that lacquered steel cased ammo will somehow damage or cause undue wear on their guns. This zinc-plated stuff is the best compromise for that fear. Paying $200 for 1000 rounds of US made brass cased FMJ meant for practice/blasting is simply outrageous and really shouldnt be tolerated by we the consumers. Right now, Silver Bear not priced very attractively, but there hasnt been much imported into the country thusfar. If the price can come down some (say, $120-$140 per 1000 rounds) for .223/.308/30-06 FMJ, this could very well be a good sustainable source of new production ammo to supplement the dwindling amounts of military surplus ammo. The green lacquered steel case stuff aint going away, though. Russian and Chinese plants have been tooled up for this stuff for decades and can churn it out by the billions of rounds very cheaply. Those who arent anal retentive about ammo cleanliness or shoot rifles more suited to this sort of ammo will still find it to be the best deal. Importers simply need to become more creative at cost cutting and profit management (The Russians' cost for ammo production is insanely low...most of what you pay for with Russian ammo is shipping, packaging, warehousing and markup) in order to offer this stuff to us affordably...if they can do that they will have themselves a very sustainable business. I also hope the Chinese can be convinced to join the bandwagon as well. Their production costs have to be even lower than the Russians' and they already have a more robust shipping infrastructure to get it delivered to the US more cheaply. Theres a certain irony in capitalism being a saving grace for former communist ammo manufacturers. This only proves to them that a capitalist free market can be a win-win situation.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 1:20:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By perdurabo: Right now, Silver Bear not priced very attractively, but there hasnt been much imported into the country thusfar. If the price can come down some (say, $120-$140 per 1000 rounds) for .223/.308/30-06 FMJ, this could very well be a good sustainable source of new production ammo to supplement the dwindling amounts of military surplus ammo.
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Ummmm. AIM surplus has it for $59.95/500, which comes out to $120/case. Where have you been buying it ?
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 8:25:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 8:26:42 PM EDT by Ghost-Shooter]
Or you can buy Federal XM193 or Winchester Q3131a from a non-communist nation when suppliers have sales (I have bought Q3131a for $144 per thousand and Federal XM193 for $175 per thousand). Or just buy Georgia Arms reloads made here in The Peach State (~$150 per thousand in 30 cal ammo can). Ghost
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:39:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ghost-Shooter: Or you can buy Federal XM193 or Winchester Q3131a from a non-communist nation when suppliers have sales (I have bought Q3131a for $144 per thousand and Federal XM193 for $175 per thousand). Or just buy Georgia Arms reloads made here in The Peach State (~$150 per thousand in 30 cal ammo can). Ghost
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Ummm . . . in case you've been living in a cave for the last decade, I've got news for you. Russia isn't a communist nation any longer. You'll have to find a new country to hate. May I suggest Iraq, Iran or Syria.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 3:17:54 PM EDT
Ok, then, just don't buy from China. They are still communist, last I checked. Ghost
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 11:34:18 PM EDT
Norinco is prohibited from importing their products, including ammunition. Good luck avoiding Chinese goods. You'll need it.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 6:14:48 AM EDT
My only experience with this brand is in 9mm with their 140gr HP. I shot 6 rounds out of a P95 and had the next round FTE to the point where I had to bang the frame on the table to get the round out of the chamber. I have not fired any since. Can't say I've experienced that with any other factory ammo either in 9mm or .45ACP
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 11:22:38 AM EDT
AIM i think has silver bear in 223. dont remember if its sp or fmj. ill check. i do rember that CTD's price on silver b 308 is friggen outragous! why dont they have a case price on that stuff?
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