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Posted: 7/11/2003 4:28:40 PM EDT
ok, the sellier and bellot is brass cased 55 grain and boxer primed... read many threads that it good reliable ammo... but does have the metal jacket, that is copper plated... i could have delived 1000/ for $177..all new in 20 round boxes... then there the federal lake city..XM193 the ammoman is selling for 1000/$189 delivered...packed loose... i went to a gunshop and picked up a box of 20 federal XM193 lake city lot20... the ammo cases have dents and does not look new in box like the sellier and bellot//// i know ballisically the xm193 is WAY better for taking down game... but i'm going to be target shooting... so which would you go with for ecinomical TARGET shooting???? gun will be 16" olympic pcr-16 1/9 twist scoped with 6X18X40 old redfield mildot scope... appreciate any help with the decision//////
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:12:11 PM EDT
Thre shouldn't even be a decision...I've never used s&b, so I cannot compare it group-wise with XM193. Having said that, the appearance of the XM is what you get when you buy real military-issue ammo. A high polish makes ZERO difference in ammo quality, nor does a dented case. I wouldn't even think about ammo other than XM or Winchester Q3131A, maybe with the exception of something for around half the price (wolf, etc.) which I'd use for pure blasting/screwing around. If you're interested in targets, buy a box of both & see which gives you better groups. If you're serious about target shooting, you need to be reloading, that's all there is to it. Finally, make sure your Oly is chambered for 5.56, and NOT .223. -hanko
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:15:34 PM EDT
yes the oly's are chambered for .556... just a bit tighter tolerances... ok.. so 1 for xm193..appreciate the input////
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:16:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2003 5:17:58 PM EDT by Minuteman419]
My experience says XM193 and Q3131A is tops. S&B isn't even in the same class. S&B stinks like cat piss when I fire it. XM & 3131A for SHTF. S&B for blasting. IMHO. MM419
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:23:40 PM EDT
I can't tell you what ammo you should shoot, but I can let you know what my experiences were. First of all, what are you shooting? A long barrelled AR has a slower gas impulse and therefore slower bolt speed. This should allow you to shoot non-milspec ammo reliably under rapid fire conditions. Shorter barrelled rifle bolts cycle extremely fast, even with the heavier CAR buffer springs. Non-milspec brass will give way to the extractor claw if the case is even slightly sticky in the chamber. This would result in a stuck case at best and destroyed weapon at worst. Now, I have fired S&B, Wolf, Barnaul, and other cheap loads through my 20" DPMS HBAR with no problems at all during slow fire shooting. My 11.5" DPMS CAR is finicky and likes only MILSPEC brass and ammo (XM-193 or Q3131A). You will have to find out what your rifle(s) like. As for cost, XM-193 and Q3131A can be found from several sites on the web that can compete with the "discount dealers". I just recently purchased a case of XM-193 from sportsmans guide for $172 + shipping. Add an e-coupon and the shipping was free. You make the choice. Oh Yeah. I HAVE HAD VERY BAD LUCK WITH OLYMPIA AMMO AND I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM IT IF I WERE YOU. My .02
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:24:23 PM EDT
XM193 or Q3131A. ~ s0ulzer0
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:38:15 PM EDT
thanks looks like the xm193 hands down... the rifle is a 16" bull barrel olympic pcr-16... really appreciate the input... will be ordering tomorrow if ammoman is open... thanks...
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:54:11 PM EDT
If I were you I would double check to make sure your gun has a mil-spec chamber. The older Olympic (and hell, maybe the new ones?....I can't remember) use commercial chambers. While your gun isn't gonna blow up in your face by using mil-spec ammo in a commercial chamber, you may experience extraction problems. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:57:52 PM EDT
No competition. Mil Spec XM193.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 6:06:53 PM EDT
yes yes yes.... it is a mil-spec chamber... matter a fact... i don't really think you can name a ar15 that is'nt compatible with .223 rem or .556 nato.... but yes... gun IS milspec....it would be crazy to have an ar15 that was'nt...
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 6:15:23 PM EDT
My .02 cents: I really can't see anyone going wrong with one or the other. I've shot both loads through my Oly CAR97M4 with no malfunctions of any type. The S&B has always delivered tighter groups for me than the XM193. FWIW, I've shot a lot of S&B, especially pistol rounds, and have never found it lacking in any way. Now, I like the LC, however, it seems to me to be dirtier than the S&B (very popular, too, maybe because of the NATO headstamp, who knows???).
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:20:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hutch1510: yes yes yes.... it is a mil-spec chamber... matter a fact... i don't really think you can name a ar15 that is'nt compatible with .223 rem or .556 nato.... but yes... gun IS milspec....it would be crazy to have an ar15 that was'nt...
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KABOOM! [:O] ~ s0ulzer0
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:31:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2003 7:33:36 PM EDT by hanko]
Originally Posted By hutch1510: yes yes yes.... it is a mil-spec chamber... matter a fact... i don't really think you can name a ar15 that is'nt compatible with .223 rem or .556 nato.... but yes... gun IS milspec....it would be crazy to have an ar15 that was'nt...
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Older Oly's with a .223 Saami chamber are definitely NOT compatible with 5.56 NATO ammunition. Oly barrels marked 'sum' (stainless ultra match) are chambered in .223, button rifled barrels are chambered NATO; but, this is their current stuff, and I can't say much about older stuff, other than they resisted NATO chambering for a hell of a long time saying that it was less accurate (meaning they didn't want to invest in new tooling). Nato chambering has more freebore as the major difference between .223, a NATO chamber is designed for 60K cup maximum, a .223 Saami chamber for 50K cup. I don't understand "5.56, just tighter tolerances"...it either meets the chamber dimensions for a 5.56 nato round or it doesn't. If that quotation came from Oly, it's somewhat typical. If it were my gun, I might be tempted to do a quick chamber cast just to be sure. Be careful. -hanko
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:40:27 PM EDT
i believe the length of the throat determines 556 nato or 223 rem... so yes they do "just have tighter tolerences" for more accurate shooter... but a bit less in reliability... anyway... ok... so they were not always 556 nato... sorry... i did not know... seems like all manufacturers have by now been on the nato thing ... will look into the ultramatch... i believe the broachcut barrel is also chambered for either... i know all the "button" cut barrels are... anyway... the ammo was what i was inteested in.... i will be getting an ultramatch too soon as i can afford one... ONLY though if it will chamber nato.... which i suspect it will....
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:44:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2003 8:03:23 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
Originally Posted By hutch1510: yes yes yes.... it is a mil-spec chamber... matter a fact... i don't really think you can name a ar15 that is'nt compatible with .223 rem or .556 nato.... but yes... gun IS milspec....it would be crazy to have an ar15 that was'nt...
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From the ammo FAQ: "Q. What is the difference between 5.56×45mm and .223 Remington ammo? In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire. The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others have the M16-spec chamber with a longer throat and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition. The big difference between the two chambers is in the chamber dimensions. Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat, a smaller diameter bullet seat and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 mil-spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more. The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which tends to give you more accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo. Some AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings on the weapon, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure." So again, not all AR rifles use mil-spec chambers. I think Olympic recently started using mil-spec but the older ones do not. So try the M193 and if doesn't function well in your rifle you will know why. Just switch to commercial spec loads such as UMC, PMC Federal American Eagle, etc. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 3:30:34 AM EDT
thank you charging handle... i think i will try both,,, and as stated earlier... the oly pcr-16 is fully compatible with both types of ammo... appreciate the heads up though...
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 6:31:48 AM EDT
The last PCR16 I saw on a dealer's shelf had 5.56 stamped right on top of the barrel, so if yours is a newer model it should have this marking. Also, IIRC, the PCR16 used to be a special contract model for some distributor somewhere (Oly could tell you all about it). Recently, as I understand it, Oly started marketing the PCR16 themselves as a standard production, catalogued item. In addition, Oly has been chambering their standard barrels for 5.56 for some time now. I, personally, would do the same as Charging Handle recommends and just try mil-spec ammo to see if it will function, though, I do not think it is going to be an issue with a PCR16. If, for some reason, you are still unsure then you might try contacting Oly to clear it up. Good luck!
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 8:00:34 AM EDT
Get Wolf 100 bucks a 1000rds You cant beat the Price and I have NEVER had a Problem Very ACCURATE out of my BUSHMASTERS!! S&B is very good ammo! But between the S&B and XM193 I WOULD GO LAKE CITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For Paper shooting only you might go with American Eagle its a Bit more accurate than the Hotter M193 And doesnt have a green laquer steel case That SCARES EVERYONE AWAY
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 8:47:48 AM EDT
actually i was never unsure of the barrel being 556,,, i actually wanted to keep it on topic of either lake city ammo or the S&B boxer primed brass case.... the gun is 556 and or 223 let that rest... has been killed to death in other threads,,,,
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 9:04:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 9:07:15 AM EDT by RussB]
Between S&B 55's and XM193, I prefer the S&B for general shooting/plinking. S&B has a lot less muzzle flash, and the velocity is very near the XM193. In my gun, it is more accurate as well. Read more about my ammo testing results here... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=162555&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 7:16:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hutch1510: i know ballisically the xm193 is WAY better for taking down game... but i'm going to be target shooting... so which would you go with for ecinomical TARGET shooting???? gun will be 16" olympic pcr-16 1/9 twist scoped with 6X18X40 old redfield mildot scope... appreciate any help with the decision//////
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Just a quick question about taking down "game": What kind of game are you talking about ? Varmints are usually too small to allow M193 to fragment before it passes through the body. There's some bullets out there which give you explosive fragmentation for taking down small critters, like the Winchester white box 45gr JHP's. If you're talking about bigger game, potentially something you're going to eat, you should get a good SP hunting bullet.
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